Jurgen Klopp and Dortmund

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pocco said:
The job in Bundesliga and the Premiership are two completely different things. As someone has said, in the Premiership, the lower league teams realistically have to be bankrolled by a billionaire to win the league now. Possibly a multi-billionaire. If the likes of United, Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Spurs were in Bundesliga, I'm very confident that Dortmund wouldn't have even of had the chance at success.

I think Klopp is a top guy and potentially a top manager in the making, but he's not a sure thing just yet.
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I'm trying to work out if this is sarcasm or an actual post. Dortmund have only lost once in the CL this year and that was against Real. They've played City twice, Real 4 times, Ajax twice, Malaga twice and Shakhtar Donetsk twice. Reaching the CL final.

Frankly, that post you just made is a load of pipe and highlights how much people overrate the Premier League.
 
RedSky At Night said:
I'm trying to work out if this is sarcasm or an actual post. Dortmund have only lost once in the CL this year and that was against Real. They've played City twice, Real 4 times, Ajax twice, Malaga twice and Shakhtar Donetsk twice. Reaching the CL final.

Frankly, that post you just made is a load of pipe and highlights how much people overrate the Premier League.
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Couldn't agree more.
 
pocco said:
The job in Bundesliga and the Premiership are two completely different things. As someone has said, in the Premiership, the lower league teams realistically have to be bankrolled by a billionaire to win the league now. Possibly a multi-billionaire. If the likes of United, Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Spurs were in Bundesliga, I'm very confident that Dortmund wouldn't have even of had the chance at success.

I think Klopp is a top guy and potentially a top manager in the making, but he's not a sure thing just yet.
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:lol: These sort of posts are just stupid. I mean what are you comparing ifs and buts for? They arent in the Bundesliga and Dortmund have been the best team there for the past two seasons and this season they have definitely been 2nd best.
 
RedSky At Night said:
I'm trying to work out if this is sarcasm or an actual post. Dortmund have only lost once in the CL this year and that was against Real. They've played City twice, Real 4 times, Ajax twice, Malaga twice and Shakhtar Donetsk twice. Reaching the CL final.

Frankly, that post you just made is a load of pipe and highlights how much people overrate the Premier League.
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Are you fecking daft? I said that Dortmund wouldn't have had the chance to build and be successful, which they wouldn't. Their best players would have been snapped up by bigger teams, whilst they probably wouldn't have been able to sign most of their top German players because richer clubs would have.

The point being that no lower placed English team eg. Everton has a chance at breaking the top four unless they are bankrolled by a billionaire, so it is therefore completely irrelevant comparing the success of Klopp vs Moyes.
 
paceme said:
Or even similar to us! Ferguson struck abit lucky with the likes of Beckham, Neville's, Giggs, Scholes all popping up at the same time. He did fantastically with that talent but there's certainly luck there.
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Well but then everything in football is just luck and we could just appoint some random guy from the street to be Fergies successor.

A good manager still needs to be able to discover, develop and utilize talent properly in order to be successful.

Klopp has also vastly improved a lot of players that never really impressed me before he came to Dortmund, especially the two polish players Blaszczykowski and Piszczek who were never more than mediocre players before playing under Klopp.

On top of that they bought the right young players at the right time but buying a talented young player and really getting them to develop into top players is not down to luck.

Just take a look at how many times Ronnie always emphasized how important Fergie was in making him the player he is now and for Klopp and a lot of his player I bet it's no different.

Add on top of that the fact that Klopp has a clear tactical concept and is quite good at the tactical aspect of the game as well as at the man management part and you have a manager/coach as good as they come.
 
pocco said:
Are you fecking daft? I said that Dortmund wouldn't have had the chance to build and be successful, which they wouldn't. Their best players would have been snapped up by bigger teams, whilst they probably wouldn't have been able to sign most of their top German players because richer clubs would have.

The point being that no lower placed English team eg. Everton has a chance at breaking the top four unless they are bankrolled by a billionaire, so it is therefore completely irrelevant comparing the success of Klopp vs Moyes.
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What stops them from signing them anyway Pocco. Plenty of young players have come across to England to play football. Since Klopp came to Dortmund he's signed the below:

Marcel Schmelzer - Youth Academy
Mario Götze - Youth Academy
Neven Subotic - FSV Mainz 05 (08/09)
Mats Hummels - Bayern Munich (09/10)
Sven Bender - TSV 1860 Munich (09/10)
Kevin Großkreutz - Rot Weiss Ahlen (09/10)
Lukasz Piszczek - Free Transfer (10/11)
Robert Lewandowski - Lech Poznan (10/11)
Shinji Kagawa - Cerezo Osaka (10/11)
Ilkay Gündogan - Nuremberg (11/12)
Marco Reus - Borussia Mönchengladbach (12/13)

Whats even more impressive is only Reus has broken the 5m bracket. Exceptional stuff you gotta say. In the process transforming them from 13th to 6th/5th/1st/1st/2nd.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Pocco's post is just so dreadful. sheessh.....
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Its a fair point.

What would Moyes' Everton look like if Abramovich and the sheikhs had not come to infest English football?

A hell of a lot more CL qualifications, that is for sure. And a domestic trophy or two.
 
charleysurf said:
Its a fair point.

What would Moyes' Everton look like if Abramovich and the sheikhs had not come to infest English football?

A hell of a lot more CL qualifications, that is for sure. And a domestic trophy or two.
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The post is awful because Dortmund has always been liable to lose their best players to the best teams in Europe. Just like Everton. Almost a decade ago too they even almost got relegated and were heavily indebted to almost going into a demonstration levels which isn't what Everton have faced in that same period. Thus its real dumb to claim Everton's progress has been hindered by other clubs having sugar daddies. That's bs.

Furthermore for many of the years before City and Chelsea got sugar daddies, Everton were still not getting into the champions league and still didn't come close to winning a thing. In fact, its during the sugar daddy era that they got to a final of a cup competition and qualified for the champions league.

Like it or not Klopp has done a far better job with similar circumstances to that Moyes has had. It also helps that his club managed to benefit from the Germany wide revamping of youth football that was planned in the early 2000's. Everton have had to rely on a youth program hindered by the awful youth laws governing British football to sustain itself. That for me is the real difference between the two situations.
 
I'm confused as how anyone can think Klopp and Moyes were in similar situations. Dortmund for one have always been one of the biggest German clubs, Everton have Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Pool, Us and Spurs as comfortably more attractive places for young talent to go. It just strikes as being bitter that we got Moyes instead of Klopp.
 
paceme said:
I'm confused as how anyone can think Klopp and Moyes were in similar situations. Dortmund for one have always been one of the biggest German clubs, Everton have Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Pool, Us and Spurs as comfortably more attractive places for young talent to go. It just strikes as being bitter that we got Moyes instead of Klopp.
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Indeed. Dortmund gave Klopp his big break and we are giving Moyes his.
 
paceme said:
I'm confused as how anyone can think Klopp and Moyes were in similar situations. Dortmund for one have always been one of the biggest German clubs, Everton have Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Pool, Us and Spurs as comfortably more attractive places for young talent to go. It just strikes as being bitter that we got Moyes instead of Klopp.
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My guess is because both Manager's transfer balance has been about even during their term.
And tbh I don't think your argument with the PL having more top clubs is that valid. Kagawa, Lewandowski, Perisic, Barrios came from abroad, in theory Dortmund were in competition with said clubs when it came to those signings.
Großkreutz and Piszczek were players perceived as mediocre at best. No one cared about them, I'm not even sure if anyone from the upper half of the table even tried to sign them. Sven Bender was labeled the lesser talent of the twins, Leverkusen came first but decided to sign Lars. With Subotic their competition was only (recently promoted) Hoffenheim and he later said that he signed with Dortmund in the first place because he wanted to follow Klopp, because he trusted him.
When they signed Gündogan only Hamburg was interested in him too, because he was just some lad who played decent for a Nuremberg player, which is perhaps the equivalent of some 21 year old Stoke player. No one expected him to be able to fill Sahin's shoes let alone outshine him and Dortmund earned some sceptisim for signing him as his replacement.

Except for Reus (and maybe Hummels, though Bayern didn't value him higher than €4mil) all of his signings were under the radar of other top clubs and only later turned out to be top players.

Not trying to bash Moyes (if Fergie believes in him, so should we), just trying to put things into the right perspective.
 
do.ob said:
My guess is because both Manager's transfer balance has been about even during their term.
And tbh I don't think your argument with the PL having more top clubs is that valid. Kagawa, Lewandowski, Perisic, Barrios came from abroad, in theory Dortmund were in competition with said clubs when it came to those signings.
Großkreutz and Piszczek were players perceived as mediocre at best. No one cared about them, I'm not even sure if anyone from the upper half of the table even tried to sign them. Sven Bender was labeled the lesser talent of the twins, Leverkusen came first but decided to sign Lars. With Subotic their competition was only (recently promoted) Hoffenheim and he later said that he signed with Dortmund in the first place because he wanted to follow Klopp, because he trusted him.
When they signed Gündogan only Hamburg was interested in him too, because he was just some lad who played decent for a Nuremberg player, which is perhaps the equivalent of some 21 year old Stoke player. No one expected him to be able to fill Sahin's shoes let alone outshine him and Dortmund earned some sceptisim for signing him as his replacement.

Except for Reus (and maybe Hummels, though Bayern didn't value him higher than €4mil) all of his signings were under the radar of other top clubs and only later turned out to be top players.

Not trying to bash Moyes (if Fergie believes in him, so should we), just trying to put things into the right perspective.
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Großkreutz still ain't more than mediocre - apart from his workrate.

Gündogan was very promising - already on the way to get into the German squad. He really showed class in Nuremberg at a time in which he still was not a full time professional as he went to school every morning to finish his A-levels. He got his first cap in August 2011 - short after his transfer to Dortmund. That he could not directly step into the place Sahin left was more the problem to adjust to the system, his age and experience.

The Bender twins were top talents in Germany - both, Sven a little more defensive than Lars. They were voted best players together in the U19-Euros in 2008? And they already played a year or more in the second league.

There was just no spot for Hummels in the Bayern squad in 2007/08. And Hitzfeld and Klinsmann did not have "youth first" in their books. Hummels ain't the only one that was loaned - Kroos went to Leverkusen on loan about the same time. Badstuber and especially Müller just hat the luck that van Gaal has the balls to build young ones into top teams (they were already out on the way to Hoffenheim, Basel or latest even Leverkusen - but the transfers did not function).

It is a difference if you have to rely on youngsters because you have no choice - or if you already have good teams and you could build in youngsters. I haven't seen Leitner & Co. getting much match time this year either...
 
My point was that Dortmund was not challenged much by other clubs when they signed these players and Löw has given a couple of young players 1 cap that does not mean that much (Neustädter).
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The post is awful because Dortmund has always been liable to lose their best players to the best teams in Europe. Just like Everton. Almost a decade ago too they even almost got relegated and were heavily indebted to almost going into a demonstration levels which isn't what Everton have faced in that same period. Thus its real dumb to claim Everton's progress has been hindered by other clubs having sugar daddies. That's bs.

Furthermore for many of the years before City and Chelsea got sugar daddies, Everton were still not getting into the champions league and still didn't come close to winning a thing. In fact, its during the sugar daddy era that they got to a final of a cup competition and qualified for the champions league.

Like it or not Klopp has done a far better job with similar circumstances to that Moyes has had. It also helps that his club managed to benefit from the Germany wide revamping of youth football that was planned in the early 2000's. Everton have had to rely on a youth program hindered by the awful youth laws governing British football to sustain itself. That for me is the real difference between the two situations.
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By many years you mean one? Moyes took over in 2002 and Abramovich bought Chelsea in 2003. At least get your facts right when you are trying to make a point.
 
Gundogan Bender

De Bruyne Erikssen Reus

Lewandowski​

That team still looks sexy as feck, despite losing Gotze. I wouldn't be too surprised if Dortmund fancy taking Dzeko if Lewandowski leaves, similar players and in the same mold. The latter is probably the superior player though.

*Obviously it isn't confirmed that they have signed DB and Erikssen, but I'm expecting those moves to go through within the next month or so.
 
I dont think Kuba would be dropped though, he is an important outlet on the right hand side for them.

De Bruyne is great technically, but his lack of pace could be an issue on the right wing?.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
Gundogan Bender

De Bruyne Erikssen Reus

Lewandowski​

That team still looks sexy as feck, despite losing Gotze. I wouldn't be too surprised if Dortmund fancy taking Dzeko if Lewandowski leaves, similar players and in the same mold. The latter is probably the superior player though.

*Obviously it isn't confirmed that they have signed DB and Erikssen, but I'm expecting those moves to go through within the next month or so.
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Not probably, Lewandowski is better than Dzeko in every way.
 
Wouldn't be surprised if Dortmund is even stronger next season. They will improve the squad depth and get a few exciting players in. They probably need a few month to get going, but they will be strong in the second half of the season. I still hope they keep Lewandowski for one more season and let him go on a free next year. It would make the transition so much easier and could make the difference in their CL group next season.
 
Balu said:
Wouldn't be surprised if Dortmund is even stronger next season. They will improve the squad depth and get a few exciting players in. They probably need a few month to get going, but they will be strong in the second half of the season. I still hope they keep Lewandowski for one more season and let him go on a free next year. It would make the transition so much easier and could make the difference in their CL group next season.
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nah...they'll hang around, probably be 2nd in Bundesliga again, but they won't get much closer to Bayern than this season.

I have faith in Klopp and Dortmund's ability to keep finding young talent, but losing Gotze and Lewandowski (arguably their 2 best players along with Reus) is bound to take it's toll.
 
Adam-Utd said:
I dont think Kuba would be dropped though, he is an important outlet on the right hand side for them.

De Bruyne is great technically, but his lack of pace could be an issue on the right wing?.
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Agreed, De Bruyne's at his most influential best in the centre. His passing and technique is excellent and he knows how to score goals as well. He does have a fantastic cross on him though, so he's still dangerous out wide, but definately not at his best.
 
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Pride of place in the Dortmund museum this week pre-CL final...
 
Obviously hoping for some solskjaer inspiration!
 
Trivial I know, but is that shirt placed over Goetze?
 
Kevin said:
Interesting to study human behavior. This 'klopp can do no wrong we all suck his cock' love in, reminds me of how Mourinho was appreciated when he was on the up.

Give it a few years, if he isn't a United manager in the future, we will see the haters (mostly people who used to revere him) pop up.
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Platato said:
:rolleyes: Anything you'd like to dig up on Guus Hiddink or Ancelotti? We don't even see SAF's every move and Dortmund isn't really that small of a club. Simply rejuvenated from their financial meltdown.

Sure anyone can be painted in various lights but it seems like you're looking for something here that might not actually be there. Your argument doesn't make sense. Why does he have to move to the Chelseas or Madrids of this world? Is Benitez really under the microscope like that? Even if something is found, why should it really matter? You're judged on your merit as a manager. Everything else is supplemental.
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After his comments on us wasting Kagawa away, a few not so warm comments have started to surface in the Kagawa thread.

It has started.
 
You're such a visionary Kevin.
 
What a great interview in the Guardian.

"She wrote a book for children," Klopp says. "It's like Harry Potter – but it's about football. There's no Harry Potter flying on his fecking stick – just football."

That bit had me literallly Lolling, he seems such a great character no wonder his teams love him.
 
Adam-Utd said:
What a great interview in the Guardian.

"She wrote a book for children," Klopp says. "It's like Harry Potter – but it's about football. There's no Harry Potter flying on his fecking stick – just football."

That bit had me literallly Lolling, he seems such a great character no wonder his teams love him.
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She being...?
 
Somehow Kevin mistakes admiration for "cant do no wrong". Pathetic really.
 
Really good interview, loved the part about the pre-season expedition for fishing! :lol: Was reading it in the metro this morning on my way to work, and I laughed a couple of teams, seems like a really intelligent guy. Very likeable as well. I didn't take offence of the Kagawa comments, he's not entirely wrong and it's out of context. I very strongly doubt that he meant it as a slight on Sir Alex. Some have pointed out that he speaks too much about other clubs, that may be true, but if that's the only negative of having a coach who's interesting in his interviews, actually has something to say and does it in an entertaining fashion, I'll take that no problem. No need to be touchy about something that unimportant.
 
Seems like he cultivates fanatical levels of team spirit and bonding. He talks about the reactions to Gotze's departure like he died.
 
kps88 said:
Seems like he cultivates fanatical levels of team spirit and bonding. He talks about the reactions to Gotze's departure like he died.
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To be fair to him the way the whole thing went down wasnt exactly straightforward and the timing of it was even worse, albeit it was their fault to have the release clause in his contract. On top of that Götze is their academy player and has been there since he was 9.
 
RDCR07 said:
To be fair to him the way the whole thing went down wasnt exactly straightforward and the timing of it was even worse, albeit it was their fault to have the release clause in his contract. On top of that Götze is their academy player and has been there since he was 9.
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I guess. May be he's exaggerating a bit as well. Players couldn't sleep after hearing about Gotze? Him and Kagawa both cried for 20 minutes in each other's arms? :lol:
 
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