Who have Dortmund developed themselves? Jacob Bruun Larsen joined them when he was 14 or 15, so I guess he's one of the most recent. All of the big names you can think of though, they were poached. Just looking at the moves most of their graduates got, they weren't flops exactly - Mkhitaryan went to Man Utd, Arsenal and Roma. Not a bad professional career at all.
Jude Bellingham | Confirmed Borussia Dortmund player
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These are all excuses. Always an excuse why the modern Dortmund player doesnt hit the heights he's promised when going through the Dortmund hype system.
Look at a few German fans above. Jude is a generational talent who plays in the championship, Reyna is next level attacker who has 0 goals and is just 17.
But they doubt Greenwood who went into this season aged 17, has scored 12 goals and is 1 off bring top scorer in EL, while playing out of position?
I dont think we should take any credit for Rooney development at all. The same way AWB isnt included in any youth debate for United. Hell Pogba stayed for 3 odd years as a kid in our academy and a lot of fans dont consider him a youth product. Same for Pique but I guarentee you this, if they spent that same amount of time at Dortmund they would be praised to the heavens for it.
Of course, "excuses". "Hype system". Then quickly tell your board to back off Sancho. You know, before you end up paying big money for another dud. Because clearly you've seen through, what's *really* going on.
Other than that, we should leave it that. "Discussing" with someone impervious to fact and reason is a fool's errand
As someone who is a United fan and a huge fan of the BL, I feel I should try to come in and bring a truce between the United fans and the BL faction. Some things for both sides:
1) United have undoubtedly one of the greatest youth academies in Europe. Saying they are the best is highly subjective but when one considers the likes of Ajax and Barcelona, United definitely are in the same tier. United have also always believed in giving opportunities to youth products, a lot more so than many of the other bigger English teams and some in Europe as well. This should not be denied.
2) Dortmund have lately become one of the best teams in Europe to develop younger players, they have a great propensity to play them and have greater patience. Ofcourse there have been some instances of younger players not playing well for Dortmunt, that will always come with the strategy have of buying many younger players and developing them. Overall when you consider the success they have had alongside the ages of their players, there is no doubt that younger players develop well there.
3) The Bundesliga is not the best league in Europe, it is not better than Spain and England, but is still a league where young players get to play at a high level. Not only that, but the atmosphere, the stadiums, are arguably the best in Europe. Dortmund would be amongst the best in the BL in that regard too.
4) Given all of the above, you can easily understand why Jude would want to move to Dortmund. Which youngster wouldn't want to go to a team where you will consistently play in the UCL, and which has shown faith to develop it's younger players? You also get to play in a high quality league, where the atmosphere is fantastic, inclusive, and where you get to play infront of 80,000 passionate fans at home?
5) That being said, I would say that the BL followers are being very touchy about comments on the BL. You can see why people who don't follow the league closely may think it's not the highest standard. The last time a BL team reached the final of the UCL was 2013 and while the PL themselves didn't have a finalist between 2012 and 2018, you would expect fans of one league to think it's better than the other. There is no point in continuing to bicker over conversations of quality when it's clear the other just doesn't rate it.
Let's please end this bickering, barely any discussion on Jude in the last few pages of this thread.
1) United have undoubtedly one of the greatest youth academies in Europe. Saying they are the best is highly subjective but when one considers the likes of Ajax and Barcelona, United definitely are in the same tier. United have also always believed in giving opportunities to youth products, a lot more so than many of the other bigger English teams and some in Europe as well. This should not be denied.
2) Dortmund have lately become one of the best teams in Europe to develop younger players, they have a great propensity to play them and have greater patience. Ofcourse there have been some instances of younger players not playing well for Dortmunt, that will always come with the strategy have of buying many younger players and developing them. Overall when you consider the success they have had alongside the ages of their players, there is no doubt that younger players develop well there.
3) The Bundesliga is not the best league in Europe, it is not better than Spain and England, but is still a league where young players get to play at a high level. Not only that, but the atmosphere, the stadiums, are arguably the best in Europe. Dortmund would be amongst the best in the BL in that regard too.
4) Given all of the above, you can easily understand why Jude would want to move to Dortmund. Which youngster wouldn't want to go to a team where you will consistently play in the UCL, and which has shown faith to develop it's younger players? You also get to play in a high quality league, where the atmosphere is fantastic, inclusive, and where you get to play infront of 80,000 passionate fans at home?
5) That being said, I would say that the BL followers are being very touchy about comments on the BL. You can see why people who don't follow the league closely may think it's not the highest standard. The last time a BL team reached the final of the UCL was 2013 and while the PL themselves didn't have a finalist between 2012 and 2018, you would expect fans of one league to think it's better than the other. There is no point in continuing to bicker over conversations of quality when it's clear the other just doesn't rate it.
Let's please end this bickering, barely any discussion on Jude in the last few pages of this thread.
Excellent post.
I really do have doubts about Sancho.
Plus I am stating facts. Its the excuses coming the other way that aren't.
I think if Jude, Sancho, Dembele bypassed Dortmund and signed for United etc for a small fee they would have time to develop with a bit of pressure on their shoulders but they would still be under the radar.
Go to Dortmund for a couple of years and make that move anyway for 100m odd when 20 years old is a different ballgame. It doesnt help the player at all and the pressure is enormous.
If, in 2020, Dortmund are still pointing back to Lewandowski as their last success then something doesn't add up.
People knew he was joining Bayern when Sir Alex was still in charge of us. Its a lifetime ago in football
Fantastic post. Gutted that we are missing out on Jude. I'll watch Dortmund games with more interest now - hoping that he does really well for them. And for the future...'God only knows'.
No one at the club does that, because they operate under a different logic than you. It's only people online who determine a club's success by what happens at other clubs.
You can see why he would choose Dortmund over United at 17 years old. Dortmund's aim is to give him the exposure and game time so they can profit off him in a few years time. They're right now probably the most desired stepping stone and they provide a pathway at first team level at a very good level both domestically and in Europe which is beneficial for both club and a prospective teen talent.
But as far as developing talent is concerned. United are better and in general England is better currently. That's not my opinion but rather something that is accepted right now among people working within the German FA, namely Joachim Low, who stated that England, France and Belgium have left Germany behind when it comes to developing young talent.
Joachim Low: Germany coach Joachim Low has said the country's academies are falling behind other European nations in producing modern footballers.
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/ger...s-youth-development-falling-behind-europe-low
But as far as developing talent is concerned. United are better and in general England is better currently. That's not my opinion but rather something that is accepted right now among people working within the German FA, namely Joachim Low, who stated that England, France and Belgium have left Germany behind when it comes to developing young talent.
Joachim Low: Germany coach Joachim Low has said the country's academies are falling behind other European nations in producing modern footballers.
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/ger...s-youth-development-falling-behind-europe-low
It’s because of ours, and Dortmund’s, respective positions on the food chain. The likes of Sancho and Bellingham are just swimming upstream in a natural way, and Dortmund is less shallow waters and is a stop before us.
Jonathan David wants to go and play in Germany, not because that is his desired final career destination.
If Bellingham is still At Dortmund at 25, he’s failed in his objectives I’d imagine.
Sanchos behaviour in the last month raises some questions. I think he really needs some leaders and mates around him which secure that he is on the right path (on and off the pitch) and keeps on learning. I think Reus and Witsel played that part really well and all the treatment Sancho gets at his time at Dortmund helped his development a lot. As a potential future club for Sancho i would try to stay focused on that and take care of him.
Wasn't it some United fans pointing back 50 years to proof their point? I guess Dortmund can show more than Lewandowski in the last 10 years. Kagawa, Gündogan, Sahin, Götze, Hummels, Subotic (the Kinderriegel) all were great. (Question is if you count Reus.) That was the era Lewandowski also belongs to. Its long ago, but i think its only started back then, since then a lot of decent came out of BVB's squad or BVB developed raw diamonds into great players. As a great players i would mention Weigl, he is one of the best examples of the last years. Hakimi was a great transfer. Dembele of course. Pulisic, who were the first time in our youth and iirc after 2 years he was in the first team. Zagadou comes in mind, for me he is better than Diallo or Akanji. They all are very young. But there is also a long list of decent players coming from the youth. Durm, Duksch, Burnic, Passlack, Bruun-Larson for example. No wordlbeaters but decent players playing in the BuLi or elsewhere.
Back to topic:
Iam relaxed about Bellingham. We will see. First, he has to arrive, get used to the club and everything. Then, slowly, the future will tell if he is up to the expectations the 20 millions Euros fee raises.
Be careful mate, there are some around here who don’t want to hear such things.
Thats ok if youre Dortmund themselves just dont sell the idea of players bettering themselves at your club only for them to collapse when out of the just go express yourself bubble.
Fans on here have argued against Dortmund fans themselves saying Bayern dominating isnt a big deal etc. Thats great when you are pressure free and Gundogan can spray passes like he's Xavi but since he joined City he has been criticised by many City fans as being a cowardly on the ball. Thats one of their so called successes!
If they were great at youth development they would develop their own but they nab players from other clubs that are primed to break through and claim their success as their own.
Imagine we signed Foden last summer, just played him and tried to claim credit for his development.
Thats just piracy.
Not just Joachim low, straight from the man himself.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-now-produces-better-youngsters-germany-says/
Very good points but I think I have to make a little bit clearer why I mentioned Pogba's development after his return.
Players in different stages of their career need different circumstances at the club. As a young player playing for academy teams, United has probably always been a very, very good destination because chances are that even under Mourinho they will trust you and grant you minutes in the first team eventually - more so than other clubs of a similar calibre. However, if you're in a situation like Sancho, Haaland or Havertz, playing time at a club is also a concern but I would say it is not the primary one since you just take that for granted at this stage. Once you've established yourself as one of footballs brightest prospects, your next goal is to prove that you can perform at a very high level at an elite club. And that's not only up to you. As an attacking player, I'd argue that it is a lot easier to shine at City than it was at United under Mourinho. And IMO, that's the most important reason why talents develop that well at Dortmund. Ever since Klopp, they employed coaches that had a clear philosophy in which every player knew what to do. They always have a shared approach of how to build up and execute their attacks and those patterns make it a lot easier for young players to shine and become better - after all, they find themselves in a lot more situations and gain more experience and routine through that.
And that's why I, among other United players, mentioned Pogba's development after his return as a reason why your reputation took a hit. Because all those things that make life easier for young attacking players at Dortmund, he didn't really encounter in his first years at United. So for Sancho "Pogba's story" may be more interesting than those of academy players getting minutes at the first team - because he can assume that the club signs him for >100m his starting spot is pretty much guaranteed so that his situation is more comparable to him than that of a youth player. As I said, I believe things are beginning to change and so is United's reputation again, but there are still some question marks that only time and more proof of the contrary will eliminate.
Regarding Rashford: I admit I'm not an expert on the player. You can't follow the development of every young player that closely so you guys obviously have way more insights than I do. I base my judgement on the fact that when he came through, he was highly decorated (and rightly so because he's got all the ability) and at times even compared to Mbappe and based on that standard, I think he was expected to develop much better than he eventually did. And I also think he would've made the step he is currently doing much earlier if it hadn't been for Mourinho's destructive ideas regarding football. Same goes for Martial and obviously, that is something a youngster considers before a move. But again: It takes some time to change your reputation. That doesn't mean that I think it still is like that. You could actually be doing a better job than Dortmund in the past 6 months without anyone noticing who's not paying very close attention.
Bellingham by the way is a very unique case because he's already one of the world's most demanded youngsters but also still incredibly young.
See, in the situation of a player like Sancho, Havertz or Haaland willing to make the next step after already having established yourself, your aim is not to get into the squad but to look as good as possible in an already strong team. And for that it is not that important if the club is good at integrating youth players but rather if it provides a functioning team which makes it easier for you to shine. United exemplarily is much better than City at integrating youth products but as of now, an attacker has it much easier to shine (and develop) at City's offense (given he makes it into the team) where one gear fits perfectly into the other. That's a huge part of the reason why Dortmund is so successful at developing young players. They always have a coach with a clear philosophy where every player knows what he has to do. And they play an attacking brandt of football which makes it easy to shine. On top of that, they plan with you since it is their business model, as you already mentioned.
As an academy player choosing the club at which he starts his professional career, however, you're probably looking for something different. Of course it is always nice to find yourself in a working tactical structure but your primary concern is to get your first minutes etc. So if I were Sancho, I'd definitely take a profound look at Pogba's development after his return which IMO was greatly hindered by different coaches, occasionally poor team mates and so forth. I believe Pogba, although I'm not a fan of his, would have had it much easier under a more attack minding coach than Mourinho. United just hasn't been a team in which things just work out, with player synergies, attacking patterns etc. And theoretically
That's what I mean with reputation.
Dortmund is no lose destination.
Nice place to live. Passionate fan base. Great coaches. Quality team mates. Guaranteed game time. Regular champions league. Regardless of the level you reach, you'll be able to leave with a decade left of your peak footballing years.
Nice place to live. Passionate fan base. Great coaches. Quality team mates. Guaranteed game time. Regular champions league. Regardless of the level you reach, you'll be able to leave with a decade left of your peak footballing years.
Really not sure about the guaranteed game time thing. Really not. Think it's gonna get worse for Dortmund before it gets better.
It's quite obvious when you look at the route a lot of german sides have taken, buying academy players from elsewhere (quite a lot from England) - this is an inevitable consequence.
You realize that Ajax's academy hasn't been that good in recent years and that most of their big sales are players they bought aged 16 to 19 right?
You‘ve clearly never been to Dortmund. I am hard pressed to find an uglier city in Germany.
What's wrong with buying someone at 16? Beckham was signed at 16 but doesn't stop us from quoting him as one of our youth graduates. Not every talented player at 16 is guaranteed to be a star, there is plenty of developing left at that age.
You‘ve clearly never been to Dortmund. I am hard pressed to find an uglier city in Germany.
Hes from Birmginham mate
Beckham was on a schoolboy contract at 14 with United. Then went onto a YTS when he was 16. So he was a ‘youth product‘ with United.
Buying Eriksen at 17 fully knowing he's the brightest kid in Denmark doesn't say anything about Ajax's academy
Same apply to signing De Jong for 1 euro
I don’t want to bring the ire of Dortmund fans, but they have already made their first downgrade of the summer (Hakimi to Meunier), and by the time August rolls round, could well have downgraded Sancho too. Haaland will probably be there for one more season.
I am sure he will get game time, but what if he doesn’t? I feel like it’s the only upside of a move to a team like Dortmund. He certainly won’t be coming back to England with any trophies.
I am sure he will get game time, but what if he doesn’t? I feel like it’s the only upside of a move to a team like Dortmund. He certainly won’t be coming back to England with any trophies.
If Jude doesn't want to learn from Bruno and Pogba then more fool him. Better than any education Dortmund can offer.
According to tomorrows Kicker
- There is a strong agreement between Dortmund and Bellingham.
- But Birmingham City aren't happy with their €22m offer and they are looking for at least €33m.
- Manchester United, Chelsea and now Bayern Munich are in contact with Birmingham City.
- There is a strong agreement between Dortmund and Bellingham.
- But Birmingham City aren't happy with their €22m offer and they are looking for at least €33m.
- Manchester United, Chelsea and now Bayern Munich are in contact with Birmingham City.
If the above tweet isn't showing like it isn't for me. Then below is the copied text.
Borussia Dortmund have agreed personal terms with Jude Bellingham but are yet to reach an agreement with his club Birmingham City. Birmingham are holding out for better offers and Bayern have now joined the race for the player alongside Chelsea and Man United [Kicker] https://t.co/3KLGTy6pix
Borussia Dortmund have agreed personal terms with Jude Bellingham but are yet to reach an agreement with his club Birmingham City. Birmingham are holding out for better offers and Bayern have now joined the race for the player alongside Chelsea and Man United [Kicker] https://t.co/3KLGTy6pix
That's the club trying to stir the pot and driving up the transfer fee for Dortmund. Birmingham have the right to do that as they are the hammer in the negotiation. Completely normal and fine.
Not bothered at all of this player going abroad, learning his trade at a much higher level but one that isn't so high pressured and cut throat as the PL or Manchester United. He'll be afforded time to settle and adapt to everything Germany and the BL has to offer. Financially, it's a great move for him as it's one that affords him to have at least one or two more gigantic moves if he's going to progress.
I don't think the club is trying to stir anything tbf. It's been reported by Birmingham journo Neil Moxley for a while now that they will hold out for around £30m.
It would be poor on the club if they don't agree with Dortmund if the player already has personal terms sorted. Birmingham could have a transfer fee agreed with every club mentioned, but if the player doesn't want to go and doesn't agree to personal terms with the club, everyone kind of loses. Bellingham will go for an 'undisclosed' fee, but could be more than 20M pounds with a hefty sell on fee and the matter of how much money upfront then structured payment for the remaining balance.
I think if his father is hell bent on him joining BVB then Birmingham will compromise.
Especially as his younger brother is part of Birmingham's youth academy. Don't want to upset the entire family!
And I didn't realize how tall he is at the age of 16/17. He has a serious chance to grow a few more inches at least and significantly fill out his frame
His brother who is a striker from what I've read is considered a even bigger talent.
That always seems to be said, but never actually turns out to be true. Maybe it's just me who feels like that though.
That's actually how I feel too. It never quite pans out like that.
Yes, Hazard comes to mind for example.
Dortmund is a great place for young players to develop their game. Shame as we used to have the pick of the best young British and Irish talent.
Ole though t he had Haland... and then didn't. None of the names being thrown around the caf have come out and said how excited they are to be linked to us.... and none have dome what Bruno did and sign. If you think players don't want to play for certain mangers (and not for others), you live in a dream world
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