Are you trying to say that German teams don't press?
Jude Bellingham | Confirmed Borussia Dortmund player
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Are you trying to say that German teams don't press?
Dortmund and Leverkusen fans on giving it the big un reckoning we don't have any pull, dear me. We aint on your forums guys, jealousy like everyone else.
Whatever makes you feel better mate
Just telling you how it is fella.
I just think it's odd to say United aren't known for developing young players (their own players by the way, not buying them in young as per your model). Especially when they have that record and the record of having developed the most players currently in the PL and Championship.
Having a passion for youth and development is something deep rooted in the club and something it is known for throughout the world. If you want to argue about coaching set ups etc that's different and I'd agree Dortmund are ahead currently with United having totally remodeled recently.
But if you're talking ethos of the club it's plain lies to say United aren't heavily youth orientated.
You've got a point there and as I said, that's indeed very impressive. But I think you overestimate a little bit how well known that is. I'd consider myself overaveragely interested in international football and I knew that United that many of the former stars of the squad were academy products but I didn't know that philosophy was so rooted in the club. No offense, but I think in public perception outside England, United's image is that of a very rich, traditional and a little bit old fashioned club with a habit overpaying at times. Not saying this is true and as I said I have the feeling you're on the right track again, but it'll probably take a while to turn that perception around again.
Don't know why people were so invested in this. Once Bild and SportBild said it was done, a week or two ago, it means only small details remain. He was 90%+ going to them from that moment.
He obviously wants Dortmund right now, so good luck to him. I think it was agreed before Corona as well, so it only dragged on for a while due to the circumstances. Same for Meunier
He obviously wants Dortmund right now, so good luck to him. I think it was agreed before Corona as well, so it only dragged on for a while due to the circumstances. Same for Meunier
This thread is car crash seriously. We are debating what is words on street in Germany about United . We missed out on Bale who went to Spurs. We missed on Ramsey who went to Arsenal. This was when we were European and PL champion.
Young players see what is best for him and probably Bellingham family thinks being bitch slapped by Bayern is the best way forward then fair play.
Young players see what is best for him and probably Bellingham family thinks being bitch slapped by Bayern is the best way forward then fair play.
Think it was the rolling out of the red carpet and being shown around by SAF.
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Dortmund don't develop players, they just offer them first team football and tell them to work it out themselves.
I agree cheeky cnut is Bellingham, if he turns out the second coming of Vieira X Zidane i still hope we are never interested.
Nobody merks SAF.
They turns their heads, it's a pisstake offering them 30k a week when the clubs who have nurtured them for years and try to instil the best in them want them to earn the money and grow as a person. They're absolute cnuts!
Forget Sancho, forget Reyna, forget Bellingham, forget Haaland.. Dortmund has one kid that will be the future and the main figure soon, Youssoufa Moukoko.
I dont know if he is really 15 (looks like he is 20), but his stats are not human..
To be so dominant playing with 2-3 years older players, scoring every season 50-60 goals, that is not normal and i havent heard of something like that.
When it comes to Haaland, the story behind his release clause is still unclear and some last info is that there is no release clause in contract at all..
Dortmund are hustlers and be sure they will not sell him for a lousy 75M..
I dont know if he is really 15 (looks like he is 20), but his stats are not human..
To be so dominant playing with 2-3 years older players, scoring every season 50-60 goals, that is not normal and i havent heard of something like that.
When it comes to Haaland, the story behind his release clause is still unclear and some last info is that there is no release clause in contract at all..
Dortmund are hustlers and be sure they will not sell him for a lousy 75M..
I've watched this kid come through, and without any hype, I believe this kid to be the real deal. He has played in every Midfield position this season and handled it well. He is out-muscling grown men at age 16. He can tackle. He tracks back. He's switched on out of position. He gets forward into scoring positions. He can pick a pass. His feet are ridiculous. I would put him in the same 'mould' as a Pogba, but with more versatility. He is showing vision similar to Pogba, but obviously he's not a Pogba just yet.
We first heard about him a few years ago, and have been anticipating his arrival in our first team. His actual arrival is allegedly the reason Garry Monk got fired. Monk & his best mate, an agent, tried to allegedly convince Bellingham & Odin Bailey last summer than it would 'allegedly', "make his pathway to the first team 'smoother'", if they signed with Monks mate. The story is that a grievance was put in, and Monk was sacked. 'Allegedly', Monk & his mate have form for this, and there was a kid at our club who singed with the agent, got a few games, then disappeared!
He is 17 this week. He also has a brother called Jobe, a striker, who is 15, and they say is actually the better of the 2. His mother was an athlete, & father is a sergeant in the police, and he himself is a non-league legend with 700 goals.
He does not have an agent, and I get the impression they won't go down that route. They are a very level headed family. Jude is a massive Blues fan, and I'm told would rather stay & play than sit on a bench somewhere, but the money men will force him out, unfortunately for us. It's not about wages for this kid, he just wants to play!
He goes to Utd, and we loan him back, or he goes to Dormund, and we reap the big sell on %, which I still think will be back to you.
I wouldn't overlook this kid, he's captain material, & he'll never go off the rails. He's the perfect character for Utd.
We first heard about him a few years ago, and have been anticipating his arrival in our first team. His actual arrival is allegedly the reason Garry Monk got fired. Monk & his best mate, an agent, tried to allegedly convince Bellingham & Odin Bailey last summer than it would 'allegedly', "make his pathway to the first team 'smoother'", if they signed with Monks mate. The story is that a grievance was put in, and Monk was sacked. 'Allegedly', Monk & his mate have form for this, and there was a kid at our club who singed with the agent, got a few games, then disappeared!
He is 17 this week. He also has a brother called Jobe, a striker, who is 15, and they say is actually the better of the 2. His mother was an athlete, & father is a sergeant in the police, and he himself is a non-league legend with 700 goals.
He does not have an agent, and I get the impression they won't go down that route. They are a very level headed family. Jude is a massive Blues fan, and I'm told would rather stay & play than sit on a bench somewhere, but the money men will force him out, unfortunately for us. It's not about wages for this kid, he just wants to play!
He goes to Utd, and we loan him back, or he goes to Dormund, and we reap the big sell on %, which I still think will be back to you.
I wouldn't overlook this kid, he's captain material, & he'll never go off the rails. He's the perfect character for Utd.
I'm not trying to say anything. I've clearly stated that he'll have more space to operate in Germany because the intensity of the game is indifferent to that of the English league. All of which you have bolded.
Im seeing that. There's also a hype about bringing in young players that overrides bringing in the exact same calibre of player through the ranks. If Jude were German and was brought through naturally, there wouldn't be this level of hype about him being in this generational cast of youngsters in one club.
Look at this list posted further up
Götze, Dembele, Sancho, Haaland and Reyna, Moukoko and Bellingham are already lined up
2 havent made an appearance for them yet, hell they havent signed one. Reyna has 14 league games without a goal under his belt while Gotze was a bitter disappointment and Demeble speaks for himself. Hell Halaand shouldnt even be on this list, he was one of the best players in Europe already who only joined because they get a percentage of a fee and a buy out clause which no other club would give. What part of that has anything to do with Dortmunds youth record? It looks as if they fecked over the Austrian club to be honest and they are praised for it.
Its a reputation they have which they do not deserve at present.
I'm not sure why pressing is an agenda of your posts, your simply applying your own understanding and conveying it to relate to my initial post.
The intensity of the game and how much space a player has can be determined by the tempo of the game, how compressed teams field the 11, the aggression / mentality of the opposition, how a team utilises possession, the off ball movement to create / exploit space. It's a dynamic. Pressing is only catered around one thing and that's ball retention. Retention does not define all the aspects of space / time. That's like looking at a car and saying the engine is the only functioning tool to it's purpose. The engine is one individual aspect whereas there are also other factors at play which qualify it's use.
After knowing that we still have Garner, Gomes, Mejbri. I think it's fair to say that we don't need this guy. I'm happy that we don't need to spend 30m or plus when you got plenty of players in our own academy. Beside, signing this guy means Gomes is leaving 100%.
While I admire your prose it must be stated, that the difference in „intensity“ between the two leagues is probably the lowest among all leagues.
I understand the frustration, but we can't be too precious about this. I mean, imagine Pogba stays (who knows?). Then it's pretty hard to see how he'll get loads of games. 4/5 first team midfielders here already.
If he turns out amazing, I hope he'll come to United and the efforts we've made to sign him now will help solidify that.
Gomes is staying then?
feckng hell! this is getting difficult and boring.
It has everything to do with Dortmund ( because of my initial post about believing that it’s a fallacy that people/fans believe young players development is best served at Dortmund) and I referenced Leverkusen purely because it says you support them.
Yes perhaps Martial was the most expensive teenager in history. Me personally had no fecking idea who he was till we signed him and I doubt many did, including yourself, but if you did, fair fecks, you clearly have more time on your hands and as for Pogba we initially signed him from Le Havre when he was 16, can’t remember for how much but it wasn’t for a world record fee.
You’re a trier, I’ll give you that.
I'd be of the opinion of he's had his chance...
Who knows. But if we sign this guy now, pretty sure when Gomes read the news he'll settle his decision to leave the club right away.
Ok. Every club other than Bayern is a feeder club.Such a big fan that you don’t even know the number of teams in the league.
Thanks for the insight mate, much appreciated! I'd be lying if I said I wasn't gutted we missed out on him this time but we could say that about any potential transfer we miss out on. Its what keeps the game ticking along, we can't sign them all after all.
Yeah, and you did that because you thought it would provoke me. And you thought that because such a side blow sure as hell would've provoked you if it was the other way round. I'm just arguing my opinion but for you it's something personal, which is why you can't be objective.
I'm sorry, this makes no sense at all. I can't even make out a line of argument in that part. Are you pretending you didn't pay that fee for Pogba right now? Or that you had no expectations at all after signing Martial? Come on.
You should start trying, too.
Why is pressing supposedly only catered around ball retention? It's basically how a team approaches defensive transitions and phases. So quite the opposite of possession. And it determines a lot of the factors you have mentioned.
First of all the intensity or tempo of basically any given single possession phase is largely determined by the defense's approach: e.g. if the opposition decides to use a low block and park the bus the attacking side is forced to play a slower and patient attacking phase, wheras if the defense uses a high block with intense pressing in their attacking third the play will look a lot more intense, because the attacking side either has to play very precise under pressure or they have to try some risky vertical pass.
Pressing in it's essence is a tool to control certain spaces by denying your opposition the passing lines that lead into them.
Having a compressed area of play means pushing up your defensive line, which is only possible if you safeguard the space behind it with a well organized (counter-)pressing, otherwise the attacking side will just play balls over your defense until one eventually connects with an attacker.
Aggression, when used to describe a team's approach, is basically another word for pressing. Well and what describes a team's defensive mentality if not how (intensely) they intend to attack the ball?
Sure, a team can also create space for their players in certain moments, but you weren't talking about how well Dortmund utilize possession, the off-the-ball movement or how ruthless they exploit spaces, you made a general point about all teams.
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You can't name those players but not mention Hummels, Lewandowski, Gundogan and Pulisic (I would also want to add Sven Bender but injuries curtailed his development a lot). Those are only players that have gone on to do well at other clubs (I would include Gotze there to) but then you have guys like Sahin, Kagawa, Dembele who did really well for Dortmund.
Dortmund have a reputation for being a great place to develop young players and it is warranted, no doubt.
Yeah, I'm not sure why people are trying to now claim that Dortmund isn't a great place to develop at. Maybe from hurt ego or arrogance.
These discussions are going to be so awesome when United finally buy Sancho and people are absolutely flabbergasted why his performance drops after he's taken out of his free role at Dortmund and gets played as a winger with Shaw and AWB for support instead of of Hakimi/Guerreiro.
I assumed we were talking about youth development, Pogba had his at United from 16-19. He was the second best talent in his group at the time. When he returned for a world record fee, he was 23, and we’re not talking about which clubs have the best reputation for developing 23 olds into 27 olds, are we? Is that what Dortmund does, after Lewa? Do they have any 27 year olds better than Pogba atm? Pogba is an example of United not wanting to be held ransom by players, something United can afford, but Dortmund would struggle if they had let players like Götze, Dembele and Pulisic leave on a free rather than giving them playing time, and they would struggle if they denied such players to leave to the extent United have with Pogba, don’t you think? It’s part of the reason why players like Sancho and Haaland went there ahead of City and United at such a young age. That is a business strategy as much as being it is being good at developing players.
Rashford Is not your field of expertise, it seems to me. I’ve followed him from age
16, and he has developed all the time, with periods of spurts and of stagnation like all kids, yes, and more under Solskjær than anyone else, but there has generally been a steady growth.
oh, and Martial, he has certainly improved as a player, but his passivity and lack of instinct for movement has been a weakness for all to see since before he came, and who knows if it is even possible to coach that entirely away. Fingers crossed.
I don’t know Dortmund well enough, and take your word for their actual superiority in youth development the last five-ten years. We’ve already agreed that their reputation is a lot better.
I know United pretty well. Did you know that United the last ten years have brought more players into top league play than any other PL club? This is under Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho as well. I would bet many people outside of England doesn’t
know that. So all was not as bleak as our reputation implied, even then. We restructured our youth setup the last five years, though, and have seen the best bunch of youth players grow up in a while.
It seems to me a tendency that United have brought through 9 year olds, brought in 15 year olds, and bought 25 year olds as a tendency the latter years. Van Gaal being the exception bringing in Martial, Shaw and Depay. Solskjær is more like that with Wan Bissaka and James, but he is also bringing in Greenwood, Williams, Garner, Chong, Laird, Gomes and more from the U18 setup. That is different from buying the worlds best 18 year olds for good money and a promise of playing time. You can’t really do everything at once though.
Exactly I made a generalisation that was not specific to isolate one individual element of a team. By saying the intensity / space time offered in Germany is more forgiving than the English league, for a players development, there's nothing in my point contrary to pressing that one team does it over another that's your own rationale. The funny thing is what I said above was an accumulation of how I view German football there's more than one variable at play.
If pressing was the understudy of my post I would have mentioned it. I don't conform to view pressing in the way that you do as an ideology, hence why I can't see where your coming from its an indifference of opinion.
I'm 100% sure that @.mica was previously Slig and Anchan
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-now-for-dortmund-and-the-bundesliga.418170/page-7
I have a lot of international football friends and you can talk normal with them (even with the Liverpool guys) about every club but german football fans are really special (I lived 10 years in Hamburg + few months in Munich therefore i can say that).......if a Manchester United fan or AC Milan or Barca fan talks just a bit negative about their club then most start with bashing.
If Dortmund are getting Bellingham then it doesn't mean Manchester United have done anything wrong......maybe he wants to go to Germany or like @carlbcfc has said "Big sell on %" or there is a other reason.
Dortmund are a fantastic club but they have made a lot of mistakes in the last years too (Of course a fact about every club).
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-now-for-dortmund-and-the-bundesliga.418170/page-7
I have a lot of international football friends and you can talk normal with them (even with the Liverpool guys) about every club but german football fans are really special (I lived 10 years in Hamburg + few months in Munich therefore i can say that).......if a Manchester United fan or AC Milan or Barca fan talks just a bit negative about their club then most start with bashing.
If Dortmund are getting Bellingham then it doesn't mean Manchester United have done anything wrong......maybe he wants to go to Germany or like @carlbcfc has said "Big sell on %" or there is a other reason.
Dortmund are a fantastic club but they have made a lot of mistakes in the last years too (Of course a fact about every club).
But United may as well say Giggs etc.
All im saying is theres hype around signing so called wonderkids that usually outstrips ability. Theres far too many that leave their footprint in Dortmund but completely fall away when they leave.
These 14 games translate into 278 minutes. He's a 17old who just joined them team this season, and btw, he's not a striker.
whose career was impaired by his metabolic illness
Dembele is a world class talent, who''s also full of shite. He needs careful handling. Dortmund was successful and got the best out of him, Barca not.
How on earth can you possibly try to spin this as a verdict against Dortmund? Preposterous. If anything your points only prove that they are better at nurturing young players, than those who bought them off them.
like Rooney back then?
Yes, exactly.
From 1986 to 1999, United/Fergusons strategy was to emulate Matt Busby’s strategy with the Busby Babes. Bring up youngsters, and add 50% up-and-coming stars and some seasoned leader types.
Around 2004-2008, United’s strategy was a) bring up youngsters, and if there aren’t enough top class among them, buy the worlds best youngsters, and add good steady players and seasoned leader types around them. That period, we only got Fletcher and partly O’Shea that were good enough for Fergie’s ambitions, and we bought Ronaldo, Rooney, Anderson and Nani much like Dortmund are operating now.
Now a days, Solskjær and others at the club are bringing the original Busby formula back, prioritising youths coming through the ranks and looking to add some wc talents. Compared to 2004, the quality coming through is better, so there is less onus on promising players like Haaland and Bellington playing time and more money.
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