Look i'm not getting into all that nonsense, we just feel differently about him. All the devistated people in this thread shows how much people think of him as a Utd player.
Juan Mata
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
- Start date
I'm sure a lot of people here had a similar reaction back then. We thought we just signed a world class one but we didn't. And just like what you said he's solid when on form and invisible when off form but most of the games he played with us he was invisible. After watching Mata plays so many time I understand now why Mourinho sold him from the first place.
Plenty of players are more effective than Mata, plenty worse too. These are more effective, in about the order given. I admit I pondered a bit before adding the last 2 :
David de Gea
Luke Shaw
Chris Smalling
Anthony Martial
Daley Blind
Marcus Rashford
Wayne Rooney
Morgan Schneiderlin
Ander Herrera
Antonio Valencia
There are lots of less effective players too who should be sold before him. One can only sell players other clubs bid for. Someone bid for Mata. Mata's not a Jose-type player; he'd not defensively adept. I might want to keep him, but maybe Jose doesn't.
I will still put Smalling, Blind, Rashford ahead of him. Even Rooney 2nd half of season had so much better performance than him.
I'll put Mata's overall performance on the same level as Lingard, Fellaini and Herrera.
It's going to be his 4th season so he had so many chances already unlike Darmian, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Memphis. He's not young like Memphis and Lingard anymore. He's not a teenager anymore like Mensah and Rashford. His wages aren't small either like Lingard. And he can't make am excuse for being too old either, it's not like he is 35 yo like Carrick. He's been too invisible in these last three seasons with us. If we want to move on he will be one of the player in my top 3 sell list. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate him, he's a nice guy off and on the pitch. He has a good technique and I will remember that goal against Liverpool and assist against Wolfsburg but it's just he is so limited, full of weakness, and if we sell him we can use that cash to buy a more effective player.
Mata has 27 goals and 23 assists in all competitions and given how he was played all over the park by LVG and Moyes and the amount of minutes on the pitch you'll struggle to find more effective players in our squad.
Smalling has good and bad games, Martial and DDG I agree. Shaw has barely played for us and still a question mark how he will return. Blind, Rooney and Schneiderlin you must be having a laugh. Blind won't play as CB in a Jose team and given how slow he is, I don't see him starting in CM either. Rooney everyone wants to get him on the jet to China and Schneiderlin just had an awful season.
Rashford is still too young and the last two don't see a point in even entertaining the comparison.
He is not a Jose type of player and that's the reason why he'll most likely be gone, but that doesn't mean those on the list are more effective than him.
We have tried Blind in CM and he looks like a passenger. He will not feature as CB under Jose that's clear. He's either gone or feature as squad player.
Rashford is still too young. Januzaj looked great and now he's not everybody's cup of tea like in the beginning. I'd say his contribution to the team is comfortably better than Lindgard, Fellaini and Herrera.
The ones you mentioned(bar Schweini) were never been as good as him and in the case of Schneiderlin he's only year younger.
These three years were years in transition. AdM, Falcao looked like crap and the former was pretty good this year in Paris. The whole team was underperforming in those 3 years and during Moyes the whole team was clueless.
Rooney is even bigger problem than Mata and practically unsalable.
As I said he'll most likely be gone, but that doesn't mean he is not one of our best players.
So what is this about? Are we talking about our best players last season? Or are we talking about who is most suitable in Mourinho's plan? I named Blind because I replied who were our best players ahead of Mata. The likes of Blind, Rooney, Smalling and Rashford was better than Mata last season. Mata's overall performance was nothing different than Lingard, Herrera and Fellaini last season. Average!! At least Lingard was much more effective as a team and Fellaini was helping us more in FA cup competition.
How did Fellaini helped us more in the FA compared to Mata who scored 3 goals in the 4 games he played in the tournament, including the one that leveled the score in the final?
As for the above - it's a mixture of both.
Jose is our manager now so that has to be taken into consideration. He will be the main reason why Mata will be a goner as well.
Blind should not be playing as a starter in the CB position at a team that fights for top 4 spot and under Jose I'm fairly sure he won't be. Blind is also not a better player than Mata. He's equally slow but doesn't have half the talent.
Mata was better than Lingard, Herrera and Fellaini last season, can't see how you can argue otherwise.
Mata's contribution to the team last season in pure numbers is 10 goals and 11 assists. As much as Rooney and only behind Martial. Closest to that is Depay with 7 goals and 5 assists.
You can't use attacking stats to compare Mata and Fellaini. Fellaini would have excellent stats for defending set pieces etc through headers in comparison.......Fellaini is more important in the team when you're away to Sunderland and Mata is more important when you are home to Villa. Neither of them are Man Utd quality.
You can try to look through rose tinted glasses when it comes to Mata's stats but the reality is that Berbatov would have had similar stats when he was here and he was mostly a massive flop. We flogged him to Fulham even though some fans thought he was maradona and he didn't look out of place one iota at Fulham
How anyone can argue that Mata was as bad as Herrera (who had a nightmare season) is beyond me.
They both weren't good enough, Mata more or less lost his right side birth to Jesse Linguard for large periods so I can't understand why some think he was one of our better players last season, anyway what most dislike about Mata is his tendency to float out of a game all too readily , though technique wise he's obviously one of the better players at the club.
Mata is by far our best outfield player prior to Zlatan's arrival.
Martial isn't better as he's too young still. Smalling? Give me a break. Shaw? What's he done at United to be considered better than Mata? He's had a few decent games at the start of the season, that's it.
Mata's record for us is pretty impressive considering he barely ever played down the middle. Imagine he had a good pacey striker that runs behind infront of him. If only we had a certain Mexican guy who wound up scoring 30 goals this season...
Martial isn't better as he's too young still. Smalling? Give me a break. Shaw? What's he done at United to be considered better than Mata? He's had a few decent games at the start of the season, that's it.
Mata's record for us is pretty impressive considering he barely ever played down the middle. Imagine he had a good pacey striker that runs behind infront of him. If only we had a certain Mexican guy who wound up scoring 30 goals this season...
Rashford not pacey enough?
Mata had his chances when Rooney was injured and he had Martial up front.
But I don't see the point in selling him unless we get a fee in region of £30m. Teams can get lost for £20m.
Our season only improved when Rashford came on the scene. When we were relying on a 31 year old crock to score all our goals, and a manager too stubborn and gutless to drop him; we couldn't get past 0.
It's great the way Rooney can retain his place in our "preferred" starting 11s despite having an absolutely gash season and yet the likes of Van Persie and Hernandez were shipped out the door as soon as LVG saw them miss a penalty or go 3 games without scoring.
I hope Mourinho has more sense than this.
Not particularly convinced he'll be sold. He's not Jose's ideal player, obviously, but I reckon he'd rather have him as a squad player than £25m. Depends on how much any other club wants him and how much he wants to stick around, I imagine, but £25m doesn't go all that far these days, so I'd be surprised if that was deemed sufficient.
You are so biased on Mata.
It's football about goals? Fellaini contributed both attacking and defending more than Mata did in FA cup. Without Fellaini's goal and defensive contribution we won't even make it to final mate.
There is a reason why Jose doesn't want Mata in his plan. Not because it is Jose Mourinho or a personal issue but because he is too limited and full of weakness.
Do I need to make myself clear? Who cares about equally slow or where Blind should be playing. My point is Blind had a better season than Mata last season so I am against your statement about Mata being our best players after Martial and De Gea.
And also your point on Mata has a better FA cup performances than Fellaini based on "goals" only shows you have no clue at all. Which is not surprising me at all if you have no clue about how Blind covers his weakness, although Blind is slow but he can cover that weakness with his good positioning which allows him to read the game well. While Mata has too many weakness that he can't even cover a single of his weakness.
Mata's performance was as bad as Fellaini, Herrera and Lingard. What Mata has done last season? Nothing but average performance. And the other three have done nothing as well but showing average performance. And I'm being generous here because at least Fellaini contributed more in FA cup and Lingard was more effective as a team.
Once again goals and assists aren't the only things in football. Mata was being invisible in too many games last season. The fact that our league goals were similar to Sunderland showed how poor is our attackers and Mata is one of them. This is why we bought Ibra and Mkhitaryan because Mata is simply not good enough to lead us. It will be more sense to let him go if we want to move on and use the fee and his wages for new players who is better or more effective. 3 seasons are way too many chances for a 28 yo player.
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Do you see the irony in this post? You slag Rooney for the same reason you tried to use to defend Mata! Rooney output was better than Mata. Rooney is asked to play differently than his instinct, he loves to drop deep to get involved than occupying the CBs. He loves counter attacking football to use his full pace and off ball movement, and mask his loss in acceleration. He can score load of heading goals but severely lacks of quality cross toward him. He is disabled with no pacy players around him that counting Mata. In the past, Rooney output better without Mata. Statically we didn't do much better or at all without Rooney,...
I am not serious with those excuses, mind you. And I am not a Rooney fan. Would be happy to get a new quality poster boy and see the back of Rooney myself.
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Fellaini and Mata are different players and Mata missed half of the cup games. Without his goal it would've been lost final don't know why is that so difficult to comprehend. You argue that players like Lingard were more effective than Mata when the latter is one of the 3 most effective players last season with a huge margin. In which FA cup games that Mata took part he didn't perform up to par?
If you think Mata was worse than Fellaini, Herrera and Lingard there's no point in debating any further. We can agree to disagree.
Based on ability and past achievements Mata is one of our best players, can't see anything wrong in that.
Blind covering his weaknesses means feck all when he won't play in CB or defence. Mourinho is not LvG. Would you be happy to see Blind as a starter in CM next year?
Herrera has probably had the worst season in his career yet he was at the same level as Mata?
So you will bin Mata, but keep Lingard and Fellaini? Deary me.
£25m will be ok to cover the £26 we spent on Mkhitaryan. But obviously it will be good if we can sell him a bit more to £28 -£32m.
You have to be taking the piss to not acknowledge Mata is one of the best players in the squad. It's fine to question his effectiveness going forward and how to properly build a great attacking side with him but the stats speak volumes and he's a 'big game' player to boot.
With the ball at his feet he's probably the most talented player we have. It's some of his other non-technical attributes that aren't quite up to the mark.
To be honest the more I think about it, we should be asking for at least £40million if it's Everton. Especially after Fellaini and his price.
With the ball at his feet he's probably the most talented player we have. It's some of his other non-technical attributes that aren't quite up to the mark.
To be honest the more I think about it, we should be asking for at least £40million if it's Everton. Especially after Fellaini and his price.
If Everton get Mata, they need to build their team around him - he will be a massive coup for them. I firmly believe that on his day Juan Mata is the best player we have in our squad.
- Talking about different players so what's the point calling Mata as one of our best players based on "ability" when clearly every position have different ability. You are mentioning De Gea on the list so I highly doubt you are talking about "best attacking mid".
- So does Fellaini, he missed half of the cup games.
- Without Fellaini goals against WHU and Everton we wouldn't make a final from the first place.
- Without Fellaini's block against Everton we wouldn't make a final from the first place. So I don't know why is that also so difficult to comprehend. And by the way I can still go on about this even more.
- I doubt I ever said Lingard had a more effective FA cup than Mata. So I don't know why are you asking me a question about which FA cup games Mata didn't perform. As I said before Lingard had a more effective games than Mata and it is based on last season not just one competition only. Mainly because his pace and work rate is more effective in some of our big games.
- Right back to you which FA cup games Mata took part which convince you that he contributed more than Fellaini?
You basically just can't accept Mata was average last season.
I'm using our last season performamce which is true. However your debate are based on "ability" and "past achievememt" ?
And you still can't see anything wrong about your statement of Mata being one of our best player? You can't use "based on ability", your statement is invalid to determine who are the best players since you included keeper, defenders, strikers. These position are all have different ability.
Your statement also invalid if you use 'past achievement' that means Rooney, Carrick, Schweinsteiger are ahead of Mata. We are talking about right now not past. We might should bring back Keane, Scholes, Giggs, RVN, Rio, Vidic right now because according to you best players depends on "past achievements".
Nope but the same goes with Mata I'm not happy if he is our starter in attacking mid. At least I can see Blind to be more useful than Mata in our squad. I'm still stick with my words Blind had a better season than Mata. And I'm sure people are agree with this staement. You are the only who thinks differently.
They both were showing average performance last season, nothing much worse so what are you on about now? Just because attacking mid like Mata had more goals doesn't make him had a better season than a more centre mid like Herrera. And also "worst season in his career"?, He only had two seasons with us in his career. And I doubt you even follow his career since Zaragoza to Bilbao so I don't know why did you think he had his worst season.
Dear me, I wish you read my post properly before make a not true statement or assumption.
Firstly, I'm 100% sure in my first post I said Mata will be in my top 3 list of players I'm going to sell. That doesn't mean I will keep Fellaini or Fellaini isn't in the list.
Second, I'm 100% sure in my first post I said Mata's wage is way more than Lingard. Lingard's wages is more worthy to be our backup and he's younger than Mata. Mata is 28 yo right now and it's going to be his 4th season with us. It's more sense to sell Mata right now and use the fee and wages to buy a better or more effective player.
What Mata has done which makes him to be one of them?
If players like Mata is one of our best. I can see there will be a lot of players in our squad are in a category of one of the best as well. Being good with his feet doesn't make him the best in football. The fact that we relied on Mata based on stats you were talking about so much and end up as 5th + have similar end product with Sunderland show how average most our attackers including Mata. Imagine if we rely on Bale, we would be in a better position and results.
In term of ability there are more players are offering more and more effective than him.
this.
Mata was misused. he's a very good player in the right system. Jose doesn't play that system.
From those two lines along you have contradicted yourself.
Why say Mata had an average season if you don't believe on looking at previous achievements? Wouldn't it be correct to say he had a good season for the player he is then? By saying he had an average season it means that he is a better player than what he showed last season. Not many players in the United team over the last 3 seasons have stood out, Martial was a bright point but he went missing in games, FA Cup final he was anonymous. Yes he is a young player and its expected from him but hes the stand out player from last season and that's mainly because of the tactics employed by LVG. I would keep Mata in the squad, I think he can do a job for us. He was mainly played on the wing and that involved him tracking back a lot, which is a weakness of his, it is also not his preferred position. Even when he was played as a #10 he struggled, but a lot of this is down to the tactics employed by LVG, being keep the ball at all costs and thus no risky forward passing. £21m isn't enough for a player of Matas skill and contribution, he was our 3rd best goalscorer despite having an average season.
Regardless of whether Mata was our best, second best or seventh best player in the team, there are a bunch of players I'd prefer to go before him.
Do we as a club need the cash from his sale? Probably not at the moment, if selling him will make some of our other Spanish players unhappy. He's also a good ambassador who has made good friends here. If I was Mourinho, I wouldn't want to rock the boat too much on arrival, unless there were a few players that were REALLY surplus to requirements.
He's not fast, but he's scored some key goals, and I really like him. If Mkhitaryan rocks up and does what Mata does but better, then by all means, sell him in January, or next year. But I think a lot of people on this forum forget that one or two critical injuries to players and we will be begging for a player of Mata's class to come in and deputise.
Do we as a club need the cash from his sale? Probably not at the moment, if selling him will make some of our other Spanish players unhappy. He's also a good ambassador who has made good friends here. If I was Mourinho, I wouldn't want to rock the boat too much on arrival, unless there were a few players that were REALLY surplus to requirements.
He's not fast, but he's scored some key goals, and I really like him. If Mkhitaryan rocks up and does what Mata does but better, then by all means, sell him in January, or next year. But I think a lot of people on this forum forget that one or two critical injuries to players and we will be begging for a player of Mata's class to come in and deputise.
Maybe it's Mata himself who doesn't want to be involved with Jose again.
It's more about Mata's style rather than quality though. Mourinho sold him at Chelsea when it wasn't even debatable that he was their best attacker. Mourinho simply doesn't fancy someone like Mata out wide or as the 10. Once that's so, there no point him being at the club.
One fact is clear: He has never been as good for us as he had been for Chelsea in his prime years. And this is not only due to LVG.
Mourinho sold him because he Needs a System built on his skills meaning others shielding him and doing the hard work. Otherwise he has Problems in a league like the PL.
I do not think that Mourinho had any personal motives or Problems with him.
Also he never really made it into the Spanish National Team. This is also saying something.
He is a fantastic Footballer and his stats Show that he can be useful even if not used 100 % accordingly.
I think he would do great in Italy and would be one of the top Players there.
Mourinho sold him because he Needs a System built on his skills meaning others shielding him and doing the hard work. Otherwise he has Problems in a league like the PL.
I do not think that Mourinho had any personal motives or Problems with him.
Also he never really made it into the Spanish National Team. This is also saying something.
He is a fantastic Footballer and his stats Show that he can be useful even if not used 100 % accordingly.
I think he would do great in Italy and would be one of the top Players there.
Why sell your most creative player in the team? Think Jose needs to be careful because when LvG froze Valdes out of the team it upset the wholesquad especially the whole spanish speaking contigent.
The only reason we havent seen the best of him is because he has been played out of position on the wing but he still managed to be one of our best performers
The only reason we havent seen the best of him is because he has been played out of position on the wing but he still managed to be one of our best performers
Wait what? Firstly, before jump to our conversation please read the whole discussion on this page. He said Mata is one of our best player and only Martial and De Gea are ahead of him. I'm against of his statement because players like Rooney, Rashford, Blind, Smalling should be considered to be ahead of Mata for being the best player.
If he was talking about "previous achievement" then he shouldn't put Martial in front of Mata for being the best player because Martial has achieved way less. The poster is just being biased on Mata. Calling a player is the best based on previous achievement but at the same time calling Martial better than Mata.
I don't see anything wrong from the two lines you marked it with bold.
So Mr "who jumped straight to conclusion", have I really contradicted myself here?
Isn't funny Mata being our most creative player but at the same time our end product is as bad as Sunderland. Comparing what Mata did last season with the likes of other attacking mid he's been below the standard. To be fair, Mata also had a lot of chances in no.10 role and yet couldn't deliver enough. True that players like Rooney should have done better when he played as a striker, Memphis and Lingard aren't world class either but as a 28 years old he also needs to step to lead the team not relying on young players like Memphis, Lingard, Martial, and Rashford to wake him up. If we had Bale instead of Mata I'm sure the result and also the number stats of most creative player will be completely different. To be honest I don't think he is our most creative player if it is based on "all competitions". We need to confirm this.
I think, if a player had a good season or not should be seen as relative to the team, especially in a season whee the team has underachieved. By those parameters, Mata surely had a decent, if not good season. He was paying on the wings, which isn't his natural position in a league that is physically demanding and requires strength and pace on flanks, 2 traits he doesn't possess. It's a bit like Ozil's case where he was playing on the flanks and being hopelessly poor.
IIRC, he has been the most productive payer over last 2 seasons, in terms of goals+assists and this despite him not being comfortable in majority of games, so one can safely say he is our best attacking outfield player over last 2 seasons. Add to that that our GK has been the best player, so you can say our defence hasn't been that good, which basically means he has been our best outfield player over last 2 seasons.
Even over the last season, apart from Martial, DDG, I don't think there was a better player. Sure, you can point Mike and Blind were, but with the kind of style we were playing, defenders would be at ease. Also, with the no. of saves DDG had to make, you can't say these 2 were fantastic. Additionally, Blind won't even be starting this season, so why would you want to remove 2 of your best 5 players, when maybe at max 1 or 2 of your worst 6 are going to be a part of your side!
IIRC, he has been the most productive payer over last 2 seasons, in terms of goals+assists and this despite him not being comfortable in majority of games, so one can safely say he is our best attacking outfield player over last 2 seasons. Add to that that our GK has been the best player, so you can say our defence hasn't been that good, which basically means he has been our best outfield player over last 2 seasons.
Even over the last season, apart from Martial, DDG, I don't think there was a better player. Sure, you can point Mike and Blind were, but with the kind of style we were playing, defenders would be at ease. Also, with the no. of saves DDG had to make, you can't say these 2 were fantastic. Additionally, Blind won't even be starting this season, so why would you want to remove 2 of your best 5 players, when maybe at max 1 or 2 of your worst 6 are going to be a part of your side!
Ibrahimovic
Martial Rooney Mkhitaryan
Rashford
Memphis Herrera Lingard
Martial Rooney Mkhitaryan
Rashford
Memphis Herrera Lingard
Assuming Mata and maybe Ashley Young are sold, these are probably our first and second choice attacking four. However, there's also Lozano who could probably play either side or as a no.10 as well (much like Mkhitaryan, and even Memphis/Lingard to some degree). We've got plenty of flexibility there and I'm not sure if there's room for anyone else.. Possibly one more player, but that could be Fellaini if Jose doesn't want to risk unsettling things if he sells five, six, or seven players in one go.
As for deeper in midfield, I don't know who will be first choice but I think Jose can get the best out of Schneiderlin and he'll be partnered with one of Schweinsteiger or Carrick (or a new signing, obviously the big dream being Pogba).
More on Mata though.
Of course, he is one of our better players, but it's quite clear that he's probably not for Jose. Do I want us to sell him? No, not really, but I'm pretty sure he will be going and if we can get £20million then that's fine by me. He's not going to play ahead of Wayne Rooney, no matter what any of us think about his performances, work rate, or overall quality. Jose looks to be bringing in at least two players who can play on the wing more effectively than Mata, but also play through the middle if required too. Mata will just be surplus to requirements here and that's why he's going to be sold. He'll probably be the only high profile departure, but we'll sign three, maybe four high profile players in return.
I think that list is slightly disingenuous. In terms of effectiveness several things have to be considered including how long they've been effective for and how long they're likely to be effective for in the future. I think there's far more question marks in terms of the contribution from the names bolded than there is over Mata.
This just isn't true. He's had plenty of chances at AM since joining us but he couldn't find any consistancy there. Many times he actually struggled even more there than on the wing because he came under more pressure centrally.
Eh? Martial isn't better because he's too young? What sort of justification is that?
Shaw's contribution for us at the beginning of the season also outweighs what Mata did. He offered us genuine pace in the final third and was putting in some very dangerous crosses. He looked as though he was going to forge a good partnership with Memphis before the injury hit too.
Like someone else said too, having Rashford running in behind didn't make the slightest bit of difference to Mata's game. He was still churning out lacklustre performances most weeks.
I don't see the upside to selling him. Even if it's in a squad role he is an excellent player and one of the best we currently have.
I'll be really disappointed if he leaves, I think Mourinho should at least give him a season to see how he performs.
I'll be really disappointed if he leaves, I think Mourinho should at least give him a season to see how he performs.
Too slow, can't dribble, can't create when playing as a number 10 and no strength. I don't know why this is a debate.
Ever since he has been here I have wondered did he really play like this for Chelsea? Did I miss it? On that alone he can go.
If you want to compete for 4-5th where we are now.. Mata is perfect. If you want to win the league.. You need better atrributes from your attacker.
Ever since he has been here I have wondered did he really play like this for Chelsea? Did I miss it? On that alone he can go.
If you want to compete for 4-5th where we are now.. Mata is perfect. If you want to win the league.. You need better atrributes from your attacker.
I think it is fairly simple. Mourinho ignobly dumped him three years ago. He is not going to see more in him now than back then.
The club just signed his replacement, leaving no doubt about his starting prospects. Mata will be happy to play for another manager as well.
Whether he can 'do a job' or provide cover is secondary to those two things.
The club just signed his replacement, leaving no doubt about his starting prospects. Mata will be happy to play for another manager as well.
Whether he can 'do a job' or provide cover is secondary to those two things.