[Rado_N]

Mata's one of those players who even when he's having a good game there's loads of posts in the match thread giving him grief.

He's an important cog in our team and talk of dropping him for the EL game because of today is just silly. A couple of daft yellows don't justify pulling him from the team, that's the epitome of knee jerk.

I'm also not sure what this 'luxery player' concept is all about. Sounds like something Redknapp would say.

 

[Snow]

I don't recall using too many bullet points but next time I'll be sure to respond within 5minutes so you don't get so upset.

You for example said "he's the definition of a luxury player". What the hell do you mean by that? Luxury is something that's not needed but what you enjoy. Like having yourself an ice cream or going out to eat at a restaurant. What has that got to do with Mata as a player?

 

[goin4glory]

Even by using the "official rating system" he's still one of our best players along with those other 4. There is no real limit as to how many can be your better players.

The rating also shows he had a very good/excellent game... So you're whole argument is completely self defeating.

He was voted MOTM on this forum vs. Watford. You said he was crap... Go figure.

When you're talking about being one of the best players it (in my opinion) clearly infers the few best so there would be a limit.

We were absolutely awful vs Watford and no United player deserved MOTM. He certainly wasn't alone in his performance but it's just another example of how average he is and how many things have to be put in place for him to succeed. He's not close to good enough for a club like United to consider building a team around.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Really weird thing for him to do, there was no need to block the free kick from been taken, and the tackle is not something he is really known for, so to do it straight after his first yellow is pretty bemusing.

Don't really blame him, we weren't playing well before he went, and he shouldn't be used as an excuse, but just find it odd from him.

 

[goin4glory]

You for example said "he's the definition of a luxury player". What the hell do you mean by that? Luxury is something that's not needed but what you enjoy. Like having yourself an ice cream or going out to eat at a restaurant. What has that got to do with Mata as a player?

I've already explained what I mean by that. Maybe you should scroll up or do you only read posts with bullet points?

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

That was in no world a red. You dont give a player second yellow for such a light foul!
It was stupid, but red is no way justified.
Its like every tackle where ball is not cleanly won a yellow card now

Apart from the four fouls Craig Gardner committed, including one which stopped Memphis from bringing the ball into the box.

No consistency.

 

[sullydnl]

The sending off was stupid but it was also totally out of character for Mata. LVG said he's never been sent off before and there's a good chance we'd never see him get sent off again even if he stayed here for the rest of his career.

As such it's totally irrelevant when it comes to assessing him as a player. It was literally a once off. People who already have a negative opinion of Mata are using today as another stick to beat him with, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with why they were criticising him in the first place.

It's fair enough to criticise him for being stupid today but it's pretty ridiculous to hold this up as an example of why he's a luxury player or why he should be sold.

 

[Snow]

I've already explained what I mean by that. Maybe you should scroll up or do you only read posts with bullet points?

You haven't explained shit. You said that he's been poor his entire time at United which is rubbish but you didn't further explain yourself at all. Saying "I like chocolate but not strawberries" is not explaining why you like one and dislike another. It's just stating a preference.

 

[sincher]

The sending off was stupid but it was also totally out of character for Mata. LVG said he's never been sent off before and there's a good chance we'd never see him get sent off again even if he stayed here for the rest of his career.

As such it's totally irrelevant when it comes to assessing him as a player. It was literally a once off. People who already have a negative opinion of Mata are using today as another stick to beat him with, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with why they were criticising him in the first place.

It's fair enough to criticise him for being stupid today but it's pretty ridiculous to hold this up as an example of why he's a luxury player or why he should be sold.

Totally agree. The last time one of our players was crucified on here for being stupid and getting himself sent off, it was Smalling. Some people wanted him gone even!

Mata was stupid but you can also see how important he is to the team by how devoid of ideas we looked after he went off.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

The sending off was stupid but it was also totally out of character for Mata. LVG said he's never been sent off before and there's a good chance we'd never see him get sent off again even if he stayed here for the rest of his career.

As such it's totally irrelevant when it comes to assessing him as a player. It was literally a once off. People who already have a negative opinion of Mata are using today as another stick to beat him with, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with why they were criticising him in the first place.

It's fair enough to criticise him for being stupid today but it's pretty ridiculous to hold this up as an example of why he's a luxury player or why he should be sold.

Spot on.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The player least likely to get sent off, gets sent off. Ugh. Thought he was playing really well too.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Many players are having their careers cut short or losing their prime years due to injuries...and you want the sport to be even more physical?

can it be less physical then it is now?

 

[Fergus' son]

The sending off was stupid but it was also totally out of character for Mata. LVG said he's never been sent off before and there's a good chance we'd never see him get sent off again even if he stayed here for the rest of his career.

As such it's totally irrelevant when it comes to assessing him as a player. It was literally a once off. People who already have a negative opinion of Mata are using today as another stick to beat him with, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with why they were criticising him in the first place.

It's fair enough to criticise him for being stupid today but it's pretty ridiculous to hold this up as an example of why he's a luxury player or why he should be sold.

It's becoming a bit of a common theme for him to let us down at a point when we are trying to kick on. Wether it's a bad performance, a missed penalty, or today a stupid sending off - he's made a habit of letting us down.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It's becoming a bit of a common theme for him to let us down at a point when we are trying to kick on. Wether it's a bad performance, a missed penalty, or today a stupid sending off - he's made a habit of letting us down.

Aye, not like he went on to skillfully set up our very next goal or anything.

 

[Rado_N]

It's becoming a bit of a common theme for him to let us down at a point when we are trying to kick on. Wether it's a bad performance, a missed penalty, or today a stupid sending off - he's made a habit of letting us down.

He won us the previous game.

I know it's a long time ago, but still.

 

[Fergus' son]

Aye, not like he went on to skillfully set up our very next goal or anything.

You seem to be under the impression that every goal or assist he provides is some type of bonus - something we should thank him for. It isn't - he gets paid millions to actually play well once in a while. I'm not going to blow smoke up his arse for sometimes doing what he should be doing all the time - I will criticise when he lets us down again and again however.

Your obsession with him is becoming a bit obvious by the way. He fecked up today (and numerous times in his utd career) - people will point this out.

 

[Vidicious]

First one out the door when Jose comes in the summer, please.

Thanks.

 

[Fergus' son]

He won us the previous game.

I know it's a long time ago, but still.

Win us one game and then cost us another, maybe even two. Story of his utd career - one step forward and two steps back - and I can't see why so many are happy/willing to accept it.

 

[Cheesy]

It may end up being another "world class" debate since people are likely to have different definitions of what defines the term. For me he's a luxury player because he can't perform to a high level without having the team built around him or playing to his strengths specifically. When he's out wide he's wasted due to lack of pace/ability to beat players, and when he get's played in the 10 and has a stinker it's because we need pace in the wide areas to get the best out of him or because Rooney is the striker (which I partly agree with for the record) or the CM's don't offer enough support and play too cautiously etc, there's just always an excuse and it doesn't surprise me that our midfield regularly get's overran when he's at the 10 and players who've looked excellent in previous clubs/teams are far worse with him around I.E Darmian/Schneiderlin.

He's not Messi/Ronaldo/Aguero etc He's not good enough to build a team around and there's plenty of attacking midfielders in Europe we'd be better off with in the team.

I do think you make some decent points there, but I do think it does a little bit of a disservice to Mata in that he's put in plenty of decent performance from out wide. I don't think it's particularly fair to blame the poor performance of other players on Mata. Darmian being horrid going forward has nothing to do with Mata, and nor does Schneiderlin regularly being completely anonymous.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

You seem to be under the impression that every goal or assist he provides is some type of bonus - something we should thank him for. It isn't - he gets paid millions to actually play well once in a while. I'm not going to blow smoke up his arse for sometimes doing what he should be doing all the time - I will criticise when he lets us down again and again however.

Your obsession with him is becoming a bit obvious by the way. He fecked up today (and numerous times in his utd career) - people will point this out.

When someone claims he let us down in a game where he actually went on to do something that actually got us back into the game... Then that's a bit daft isn't it? That's like saying he let us down against Watford cos he was shit in the first half.

I'm obsessed with giving players their fair due... If someone says Mata was crap against Watford and Arsenal I'll call them on it... Similarly, if someone claims he let us down by missing a penalty, despite the fact that he attoned for his error later, I'll call them on that too.

At what point did I say he didn't feck up today? Just cos I don't think Dean had to send him off doesn't mean I didn't think it was stupid. I've already said he was stupid for giving an overly officious referee like Dean a desicion to make.

 

[Rado_N]

Win us one game and then cost us another, maybe even two. Story of his utd career - one step forward and two steps back - and I can't see why so many are happy/willing to accept it.

He didn't cost us the game today.

I'm not excusing him, and he sure as hell didn't help, but I honestly don't think having 11 players would have changed anything. You only have to look at the similarity to countess other games to come to the conclusion that we'd have likely created the square root of feck all anyway.

Edit: not to mention that we should still be able to beat that shower of shite even with 10 men.

 

[Cheesy]

You seem to be under the impression that every goal or assist he provides is some type of bonus - something we should thank him for. It isn't - he gets paid millions to actually play well once in a while. I'm not going to blow smoke up his arse for sometimes doing what he should be doing all the time - I will criticise when he lets us down again and again however.

Your obsession with him is becoming a bit obvious by the way. He fecked up today (and numerous times in his utd career) - people will point this out.

He does get assists/goals on a fairly regular basis though, and has generally done so since he arrived. I do think he often needs to be offering us a lot more, but when youhave a player who has decent productivity, it's only fair to praise them for that.

Win us one game and then cost us another, maybe even two. Story of his utd career - one step forward and two steps back - and I can't see why so many are happy/willing to accept it.

He doesn't regularly cost us games, though. He's one of many players who have often underwhelmed at times. Even today, our defeat extended beyond having 10 men, since we were poor from the start...although I'll agree Mata has a large degree of culpability for his stupidity.

 

[Speak]

The club should just put him out of his misery. Hopefully this summer.
Nice guy, pretty technique, occasional great performance... But ultimately not good enough for where the team needs to be. Today's red card isn't even a big issue. He's unlikely to ever receive another red in his career. But he's just not good enough anyway.

 

[Fergus' son]

He didn't cost us the game today.

I'm not excusing him, and he sure as hell didn't help, but I honestly don't think having 11 players would have changed anything. You only have to look at the similarity to countess other games to come to the conclusion that we'd have likely created the square root of feck all anyway.

I'm more talking about his utd career in general, every time he looks like he's playing close to what we expected when we bought him, he throws in a horrible performance, pulls out of a vital tackle, misses a penalty or gets sent off - there's always something and it's happened too often now. Very disappointing signing IMO.

 

[Fergus' son]

The club should just put him out of his misery. Hopefully this summer.
Nice guy, pretty technique, occasional great performance... But ultimately not good enough for where the team needs to be. Today's red card isn't even a big issue. He's unlikely to ever receive another red in his career. But he's just not good enough anyway.

Agreed.

 

[Sandikan]

Huge out of character mess up today, but I still think it was harsh that early. Plenty of games you'll watch where someone is deserving of a booking but the ref just lets it go as it's "too early". typical little Dean to be an ass.

Won't hold it against Mata, everyone's allowed a mistake. Hasn't exactly made many with us has he, whatever you think about his overall contribution.

Back in the team Thursday for sure, as he'll now obviously miss the West Ham game.

 

[Rado_N]

I'm more talking about his utd career in general, every time he looks like he's playing close to what we expected when we bought him, he throws in a horrible performance, pulls out of a vital tackle, misses a penalty or gets sent off - there's always something and it's happened too often now. Very disappointing signing IMO.

Two of those four things that apparently always happen have happened once each.

 

[Fergus' son]

He does get assists/goals on a fairly regular basis though, and has generally done so since he arrived. I do think he often needs to be offering us a lot more, but when youhave a player who has decent productivity, it's only fair to praise them for that.



He doesn't regularly cost us games, though. He's one of many players who have often underwhelmed at times. Even today, our defeat extended beyond having 10 men, since we were poor from the start...although I'll agree Mata has a large degree of culpability for his stupidity.

Might not cost us directly but being so ineffective so often is damaging enough - particularly for a £35M signing who is arguably meant to be our creative fulcrum.

 

[Fergus' son]

Two of those four things that apparently always happen have happened once each.

The bad performances happen every other week - so that makes up for it.

 

[Rado_N]

The bad performances happen every other week - so that makes up for it.

Yea that's plainly not true either.

 

[Fergus' son]

When someone claims he let us down in a game where he actually went on to do something that actually got us back into the game... Then that's a bit daft isn't it? That's like saying he let us down against Watford cos he was shit in the first half.

I'm obsessed with giving players their fair due... If someone says Mata was crap against Watford and Arsenal I'll call them on it... Similarly, if someone claims he let us down by missing a penalty, despite the fact that he attoned for his error later, I'll call them on that too.

At what point did I say he didn't feck up today? Just cos I don't think Dean had to send him off doesn't mean I didn't think it was stupid. I've already said he was stupid for giving an overly officious referee like Dean a desicion to make.

So missing a penalty isn't letting the team down? Bullshit. Of course it is - even if you do set up a goal later in the game.

You guys clearly don't want a proper discussion on this matter.

 

[Fergus' son]

Yea that's plainly not true either.

 

[Rado_N]

Well explained.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

So missing a penalty isn't letting the team down? Bullshit. Of course it is - even if you do set up a goal later in the game.

You guys clearly don't want a proper discussion on this matter.

So you're saying there's no way to atone for missing a penalty? Regardless of what you do after, you've let the team down and that's that?

 

[Fergus' son]

So you're saying there's no way to atone for missing a penalty? Regardless of what you do after, you've let the team down and that's that?

Yeah.

You're meant to score penalties and not get sent off - not doing this is letting the team down. Doing something good later in the game goes some way to make up for it, but doesn't take away from the fact that it was a let down in the first place.

 

[Fergus' son]

Well explained.

Thanks.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Yeah.

Pretty negative way to view football... but fair enough. What about own goals / errors leading to goals / missing open goals?

 

[sullydnl]

Yeah.

You're meant to score penalties and not get sent off - not doing this is letting the team down. Doing something later in the game goes done way to make up for it, but doesn't take away from the fact that it was a let down in the first place.

So Aguero let City down yesterday then? Even though he also scored twice in the game?

In reality Mata's penalty miss would barely have been mentioned if, say, Martial had done it. Another example of people using a relatively minor and excusable mistake as a stick to beat Mata with because they don't rate him generally.

 

[Snowjoe]

Yeah.

You're meant to score penalties and not get sent off - not doing this is letting the team down. Doing something good later in the game goes some way to make up for it, but doesn't take away from the fact that it was a let down in the first place.

You must be an incredibly hard person to please.

 

[goin4glory]

The sending off was stupid but it was also totally out of character for Mata. LVG said he's never been sent off before and there's a good chance we'd never see him get sent off again even if he stayed here for the rest of his career.

As such it's totally irrelevant when it comes to assessing him as a player. It was literally a once off. People who already have a negative opinion of Mata are using today as another stick to beat him with, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with why they were criticising him in the first place.

It's fair enough to criticise him for being stupid today but it's pretty ridiculous to hold this up as an example of why he's a luxury player or why he should be sold.

I never used today as an example of him being a luxury player.

You haven't explained shit. You said that he's been poor his entire time at United which is rubbish but you didn't further explain yourself at all. Saying "I like chocolate but not strawberries" is not explaining why you like one and dislike another. It's just stating a preference.

Yes I have, if you can't be bothered to read through previous posts then that's on you, Cheesy however did respond to my post.

I do think you make some decent points there, but I do think it does a little bit of a disservice to Mata in that he's put in plenty of decent performance from out wide. I don't think it's particularly fair to blame the poor performance of other players on Mata. Darmian being horrid going forward has nothing to do with Mata, and nor does Schneiderlin regularly being completely anonymous.

Decent performances every now now and then yes I agree with you on that, but is that really the standard we're setting for our attacking players and specifically someone who cost 37m and earns big wages? I wouldn't be surprised if the performances of Darmian/Schneiderlin are considerably better when he's gone but only time will tell.

The club should just put him out of his misery. Hopefully this summer.
Nice guy, pretty technique, occasional great performance... But ultimately not good enough for where the team needs to be. Today's red card isn't even a big issue. He's unlikely to ever receive another red in his career. But he's just not good enough anyway.

Agreed. There's a number of players who can make us better in his specialist position alone nevermind if we were to change the team's structure and go for a 4-3-3 without a standard number 10. The guy isn't good enough and one of the reasons I'm pro Mourinho is he knows it and is ruthless enough to sell him with no hesitation.

Barca were already one of the best sides in Europe when they had Pedro/Sanchez but moved both on because they could upgrade to Neymar/Suarez. When there's 10+ players minimum we could look at who could offer us far more than Mata it's time to say goodbye.