Joshua Zirkzee | signed for Manchester United

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What I like about both him and de Ligt is that their massive potential is still there. They both took moves that weren’t good for their careers, and while de Ligt still made it work in unstable environments and Zirkzee has shown what he can do at Bologna, you get the sense, from both players, that there is still more to come.

I am really excited about both these signings and hope we can get them over the line before anyone else comes in.
 
dinostar77 said:
I feel sorry for bologna. But it's their fault for agreeing to that in the first place.
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I think I read earlier in the thread that Zirkzee was rather pricey for them (compared to their usual transfer dealings), and that this construction with a significant sell-on clause for Bayern made things possible.
 
Abraxas said:
Sure but I don't think clubs are just looking at fbref. I think there's probably some analytics we're not aware of. Otherwise what's the point of a data analysis department.
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Not basing it off fbref, but from the guys from statsbomb who put out his analytics profile as a very "meh" player (and they are far more advanced than fbref stats).

He has talent, he has potential, he just hasn't been super effective as a player yet. Which is why a CF, aged 23, is only going for €40m and there aren't many clubs chomping at the bit to sign him, and why he wasn't originally part of the Dutch squad (and after being an emergency call up, hasn't really played a part and is behind Memphis and Weghorst in the pecking order). Let's not make him out to be something he isn't and put unrealistic expectations on him. He's coming as a squad player with potential. He'll likely struggle at first in the Prem and need time to adapt, most young attackers do. The hope is with the right set up and training he can fulfill his potential here and make the step up on the early potential he showed at Bayern.
 
From the (admittedly) very little I’ve seen of him from clips on YouTube he definitely gives me Martial vibes. And I mean that in both the positive & negative sense. He looks to have really good technique, a good touch and good linkup play, can bring others into play and can finish. However he does also seem to have that lackadaisical quality that frustrated so many with Martial. More a Berbatov than a Tevez.

If he can develop into a top player then the fee will be an absolute steal. My only concern though is our attack will still need major reinforcements if we’re to score enough goals. This lad on his own seems unlikely to bridge that gap.
 
Looks like a huge amount of assumptions being made on very little information. Do we have any posters who have watched him regularly rather than those that have just watched Youtube clips?
 
M Bison said:
Looks like a huge amount of assumptions being made on very little information. Do we have any posters who have watched him regularly rather than those that have just watched Youtube clips?
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Yes, even seen him play live. Was very good at Bologna last season. And he’s not really similar to Martial, more a Berbatov type player.
 
Malone_Post said:
From the (admittedly) very little I’ve seen of him from clips on YouTube he definitely gives me Martial vibes. And I mean that in both the positive & negative sense. He looks to have really good technique, a good touch and good linkup play, can bring others into play and can finish. However he does also seem to have that lackadaisical quality that frustrated so many with Martial. More a Berbatov than a Tevez.

If he can develop into a top player then the fee will be an absolute steal. My only concern though is our attack will still need major reinforcements if we’re to score enough goals. This lad on his own seems unlikely to bridge that gap.
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Yes we need an established forward, this alone will leave us very short up top.
 
the_cliff said:
For a team inferior to ours.
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Brentford had a higher xG than us this season, were one place behind us the season before and 2 places lower than us the season before that.

the_cliff said:
His movement in the box is world class and his finishing is very good. The only season in the premier league he hasn't outperformed his xG is last season coming off his suspension. If we create for him he will score, it's that simple. We're constantly complaining about goals and how there's never anyone in the box attacking crosses and finishing off moves and yet we want to buy another striker that has 'good link up play' but doesn't make those runs into the box and doesn't win aerial duels.
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This just isn't true. https://understat.com/player/998 In his 3 years in the Premier League Ivan Toney had under performed his xG every year. In his best season in the league, Ivan Toney scored 20 goals from 21.69 xG. And that's including his obviously excellent record at penalties which boosts his xG performance a bit.

23/24 - 4 goals from an xG of 7.13
22/23 - 20 goals from an xG of 21.69
21/22 - 12 goals from an xG of 12.05

And it's actually worse from non-Penalty and freekick situations:
23/24 - 3 goals from an xG of 6.56
22/23 - 12 goals from an xG of 15.56
21/22 - 7 goals from an xG of 8.24

Overall from open play he has 15 goals from 21.27 xG. He is not a good finisher and he averages 0.26 xG per 90 from open play. Rasmus Hojlund last season averaged 0.29 xG per 90 despite being ignored by his teammates. Scott McTominay averaged 0.25xG per 90 from open play.

the_cliff said:
Also do you know the last time Manchester United had a striker that scored at least 20 league goals (including penalties), it was RVP when we won the league. So turning your nose up at that for a player doing it at Brentford is quite funny.
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The list of players who've scored 12 or more goals since then not from set pieces is a lot longer though. It includes Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Lukaku, Rashford, Martial and Ronaldo. And you're turning your nose up at how close Brentford have been to is in attacking output in the last 3 years.

The only clubs that should be spending big money on Toney are clubs who are basing their attacking strategy around direct long balls and set pieces. He might be a havoc substitute for a team like Arsenal who are really good at corners, but for a 28 year old who has shown signs of decline after his ban no big club should be putting big money on him. It's a black hole.
 
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Shark said:
if it's a forward that's going to be effective, and suited to the league, yes. If he's another Antony, no.
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I mean it still kind of is. Zirkzee obviously has a lot of potential, wont be on a massive wage and if he doesn't work out and the club move him on there's a very good chance they will get the majority of their money back from a club willing to bet they can get more out of him ala Depay.

Antony was 3x the fee and on impossible to shift wages. They're worlds apart even if they both end up being equally bad.
 
Acrobat7 said:
You’re paying us €20m for Zirkzee. And you‘re buying de Ligt off of us. You are financing Palhinha, Olise and Simons. It‘s all good. I am very relaxed over here.
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Bayern fan on a united forum. :lol:We are so much bigger
 
Semper Fudge said:
So inferior by most metrics?
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Inferior by a tiny margin, which doesn't nearly mitigate the disparity we're talking about. Brentford average 4 less xG over a season than we do, Toney gets around 36% of Brentford's xG (which would dip at United, undoubtably, but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt) so he's missing at most 1.4xG by playing for Brentford, which given his conversion rate is about 1.2 goals a season from his tally with about 0.45 of those goals being penalties/freekicks (of which it's not a given he's better than Bruno at). Did you actually follow the conversation? Because it doesn't seem like you did.

Brentford also have an extremely high xG per shot ratio, they generate fewer chances but the ones they do (due to being an effective fast break team, adept at set pieces) are high quality. Which makes Toney's poor conversion record even worse.
 
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V.O. said:
Using him getting banned for half a season due to his own stupidity as a point in his favour is some argument.
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That's not an argument though.
Dion said:
Brentford had a higher xG than us this season, were one place behind us the season before and 2 places lower than us the season before that.


This just isn't true. https://understat.com/player/998 In his 3 years in the Premier League Ivan Toney had under performed his xG every year. In his best season in the league, Ivan Toney scored 20 goals from 21.69 xG. And that's including his obviously excellent record at penalties which boosts his xG performance a bit.

23/24 - 4 goals from an xG of 7.13
22/23 - 20 goals from an xG of 21.69
21/22 - 12 goals from an xG of 12.05

And it's actually worse from non-Penalty and freekick situations:
23/24 - 3 goals from an xG of 6.56
22/23 - 12 goals from an xG of 15.56
21/22 - 7 goals from an xG of 8.24

Overall from open play he has 15 goals from 21.27 xG. He is not a good finisher and he averages 0.26 xG per 90 from open play. Rasmus Hojlund last season averaged 0.29 xG per 90 despite being ignored by his teammates. Scott McTominay averaged 0.25xG per 90 from open play.


The list of players who've scored 12 or more goals since then not from set pieces is a lot longer though. It includes Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Lukaku, Rashford, Martial and Ronaldo. And you're turning your nose up at how close Brentford have been to is in attacking output in the last 3 years.

The only clubs that should be spending big money on Toney are clubs who are basing their attacking strategy around direct long balls and set pieces. He might be a havoc substitute for a team like Arsenal who are really good at corners, but for a 28 year old who has shown signs of decline after his ban no big club should be putting big money on him. It's a black hole.
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I use Fbref for my stats and they paint a different picture.
https://fbref.com/en/players/e09f279b/dom_lg/Ivan-Toney-Domestic-League-Stats
According to that site, since his season in the championship he has constantly outperformed his xG barring his last season coming back from suspension as I mentioned.

I also disagree with what you said about Brentford being a better team than us and a team that creates more chances as having a player like Ivan Toney that is constantly in an around the area will result in that. If Toney joined our team our xG would go up as well just by having him.

You're the first person I've ever spoken to that has ever mentioned non set piece goals in my life. I've heard of npG but to take away free kicks as well is quite ridiculous tbh as a free kick is more indicative of finishing ability than a tap in from 2 yards out...
 
Acrobat7 said:
You’re paying us €20m for Zirkzee. And you‘re buying de Ligt off of us. You are financing Palhinha, Olise and Simons. It‘s all good. I am very relaxed over here.
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€70 million will get you only Palhinha or Olise and the loan fee for Xavi (By the way which club will give you the €70-80 million for him in 12 months?).

And to replace De Ligt with Tah.....one of the worst transfer deals ever......Tah :lol:
 
ROFLUTION said:
So you’re saying Kane lacks pace but makes up for it with goals?

Yet Zirkzee has few goals and lacks pace.

Work, logic. Work.
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Sigh. Nothing else counts then. Key player for a team who qualified for CL for the first time in years, still young, two-footed with very good technique for a guy who's 6'4 , Seria A young player of the year. There's lots of things to like here.

But yea let's call him a mid table player even before he has kicked a ball for us because he lacks pace. Work, logic. Work.

Some of you lot are so quick to write off players it's astounding.
 
Looks quite two footed in highlight videos? Looks like he has great feet, touch, and can beat a man with body movements.

A little different from Hojlund, looks an interesting player!
 
I'm really worried that Zirkzee doesn't have the pace for the PL.
Feels like a risky signing that doesn't particularly improve us. Hope I'm wrong though.

Hugely underwhelmed by De Ligt also tbh.
Feels like a rinse & repeat signing from previous years - someone on huge wages who will be impossible to move on if it doesn't work out.
 
the_cliff said:
That's not an argument though.

I use Fbref for my stats and they paint a different picture.
https://fbref.com/en/players/e09f279b/dom_lg/Ivan-Toney-Domestic-League-Stats
According to that site, since his season in the championship he has constantly outperformed his xG barring his last season coming back from suspension as I mentioned.

I also disagree with what you said about Brentford being a better team than us and a team that creates more chances as having a player like Ivan Toney that is constantly in an around the area will result in that. If Toney joined our team our xG would go up as well just by having him.

You're the first person I've ever spoken to that has ever mentioned non set piece goals in my life. I've heard of npG but to take away free kicks as well is quite ridiculous tbh as a free kick is more indicative of finishing ability than a tap in from 2 yards out...
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Fbref moved away from their stats supplier last year, their new one is ass. But even if you use fbref he's under performed his non-penalty goal xG every season in the Premier League.

Brentford's xG per game hasn't changed between Toney's presence and his ban. So I'm not sure that is a remotely justifiable situation. They're also far less reliant on penalties when he's out of the team. You can disagree with the notion that Brentford haven't been comparable to us in an attacking sense over the last 3 years, but the stats don't validate that position. We've been very poor in 2 out of 3 years for a 'big' club.

If your team has a very good free kick taker already, signing someone based partly on their record of scoring free kicks when they won't be taking them is foolish. Although even if you included freekicks all of the above is still true.
 
saik said:
Sigh. Nothing else counts then. Key player for a team who qualified for CL for the first time in years, still young, two-footed with very good technique for a guy who's 6'4 , Seria A young player of the year. There's lots of things to like here.

But yea let's call him a mid table player even before he has kicked a ball for us because he lacks pace. Work, logic. Work.

Some of you lot are so quick to write off players it's astounding.
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It's the premier league. If you're not pacey and/or strong, you'll struggle. Being useful in Seria A is a very different thing. I'd personally prefer more hardworking, faster players who can also help us press better. But that's me.
 
it would appear that they may try to avoid the release clause and pay a bit more in installments which would help out with other transfers such as De Ligt and Ugarte
 
FreakyJim said:
It's the premier league. If you're not pacey and/or strong, you'll struggle. Being useful in Seria A is a very different thing. I'd personally prefer more hardworking, faster players who can also help us press better. But that's me.
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More hard working? Is Zirkzee lazy now? He's also strong. He's by no means slow. Very capable of a good press.

This post makes me laugh.
 
Acrobat7 said:
You’re paying us €20m for Zirkzee. And you‘re buying de Ligt off of us. You are financing Palhinha, Olise and Simons. It‘s all good. I am very relaxed over here.
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mate....De Ligt's fee won't even cover Olise let alone finance Palhinha.

you may be fortunate enough to get Simons on loan which is a good piece of business after watching him in the euros which makes you wonder wtf is going on at PSG with talent evaluation
 
FreakyJim said:
It's the premier league. If you're not pacey and/or strong, you'll struggle. Being useful in Seria A is a very different thing. I'd personally prefer more hardworking, faster players who can also help us press better. But that's me.
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We haven't even seen him kick a ball in this league yet some people are already writing him off. Those are very subjective things and we won't know until he plays for us if he has the pace/strength for this league. He by no means looks like a player who lacks strength. And plenty of players who lack pace have worked well in this league if they have good technique which he seems to have. Let's atleast wait until he plays for us before making sweeping judgments like he's a mid table player.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
I mean I just completely disagree that we need some box presence magician to break down packed defenses, considering we kept Ten Hag in the job and he clearly doesn’t give a feck about dominating possession around the oppo box. All signs point towards us still being a transitional/direct team and in that case Zirkzee is an excellent fit if you’re going to stick off ball runners around him.
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But we don't have enough off the ball runners. Dropping Hojlund for Zirkzee means we have one less. Antony wants ball to feet, Amad wants ball to feet, Bruno wants ball to feet. Garnacho will make a run. Rashford might if he's bothered. Ten Hag's philosophy isn't really the relevant thing here, getting players who function alongside our other players is.
 
Here we go time.

First signing under the new regime. There's some sentimental value to this if we manage to turn the club around.
 
One thing that strikes me is how often he picks the ball up in the midfield. Looks to play a CAM role and move forward into the CF role. Wonder if he’ll be used alongside Højlund to create that link between midfield and attack that we’ve lacked.

I am concerned that he’ll not be given nearly as much time on the ball to make those runs in the PL. If that happens his confidence might falter and he’ll stop taking on players much like what happened to Sancho.

All assumptions but 34m in these climates isn’t terrible and worth a gamble. I’d be more apprehensive if it was 50-60m+
 
Can we just take a moment to recognise we’re signing a player for below their market value.

Onwards!
 
Indigofink said:
I'm really worried that Zirkzee doesn't have the pace for the PL.
Feels like a risky signing that doesn't particularly improve us. Hope I'm wrong though.

Hugely underwhelmed by De Ligt also tbh.
Feels like a rinse & repeat signing from previous years - someone on huge wages who will be impossible to move on if it doesn't work out.
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Thing is we are a europa league club that only got in due to a cup win...

ineos No doubt making impressive moves but there's only so far an 8th place finish will get you.

As always players want CL and a promising project we can't offer the former and the latter is yet to be seen.

I blame eth personally but let's see what he does next.
 
Indigofink said:
I'm really worried that Zirkzee doesn't have the pace for the PL.
Feels like a risky signing that doesn't particularly improve us. Hope I'm wrong though.

Hugely underwhelmed by De Ligt also tbh.
Feels like a rinse & repeat signing from previous years - someone on huge wages who will be impossible to move on if it doesn't work out.
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signing a 25 year old centre back who has played at the highest level isn’t a “rinse and repeat”. When was the last time we bought a player in their prime? I’d say Bruno maybe?
 
He seems a facilitator rather than a goalscorer, which if im honest worries me.

Its banking on Rashford to not be totally shite again, Bruno, Højlund & Garnacho to also to up their numbers too. I’m not convinced Rashford will, and Hojlunds going to be the rotation option with Zirkzee.
 
Big Andy said:
signing a 25 year old centre back who has played at the highest level isn’t a “rinse and repeat”. When was the last time we bought a player in their prime? I’d say Bruno maybe?
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Bruno wasn’t in his prime. His first 2 seasons here were his prime. He was world class. The last time I can think of us getting a player in his prime was Van Persie.
 
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