[simonhch]

I should really go back and find some of my early posts on Zirkzee. So many were writing him off saying what utter dogshit he was. And I'll admit I had the odd game where I was enormously frustrated with him, but I said, over and over, he's young, he's getting used to the league, you have to give him time. At least give him this full season and then have another look at him next year once he's gotten used to the league, the country, Amorim's demands etc. We are just so quick to write players off, and in the most vitriolic terms.

So with that said, I am delighted by his recent performances. He's steadily been getting better and better every week for the last 4-6 weeks; and against Sociedad he was simply fantastic. You could always see he had a silky touch and vision, but nothing seemed to come together for him, he was palpably lacking in confidence. On thursday however, he looked a player full to the brim with confidence, and he tore them apart. He was knitting everything together. Coming deep and picking up the ball, running at and past people, pulling off all sorts of tricks. Had some beautiful passes, not least the instant pass that set Dorgu away for the red card. I think this lad is at the very worst going to be a very good squad player for us. A player who can come on and make a real difference, because he has that unpredictable element to him. He is by all accounts an incredibly hard worker and trainer, so at the very best I think he can be one of the best 10s in the league. Whether he will get there I don't know, but I am very happy to see him proving so many people wrong. Long may it continue.

 

[Marwood]

I should really go back and find some of my early posts on Zirkzee. So many were writing him off saying what utter dogshit he was. And I'll admit I had the odd game where I was enormously frustrated with him, but I said, over and over, he's young, he's getting used to the league, you have to give him time. At least give him this full season and then have another look at him next year once he's gotten used to the league, the country, Amorim's demands etc. We are just so quick to write players off, and in the most vitriolic terms.

So with that said, I am delighted by his recent performances. He's steadily been getting better and better every week for the last 4-6 weeks; and against Sociedad he was simply fantastic. You could always see he had a silky touch and vision, but nothing seemed to come together for him, he was palpably lacking in confidence. On thursday however, he looked a player full to the brim with confidence, and he tore them apart. He was knitting everything together. Coming deep and picking up the ball, running at and past people, pulling off all sorts of tricks. Had some beautiful passes, not least the instant pass that set Dorgu away for the red card. I think this lad is at the very worst going to be a very good squad player for us. A player who can come on and make a real difference, because he has that unpredictable element to him. He is by all accounts an incredibly hard worker and trainer, so at the very best I think he can be one of the best 10s in the league. Whether he will get there I don't know, but I am very happy to see him proving so many people wrong. Long may it continue.

He turned up heavy and without the required fitness. He can't be that hard a worker and trainer.

According to Amorim just recently he has slimmed down and picked up some speed. Kind of ridiculous really it's taken this long. That's not somebody who by all accounts is a great trainer.

Glad that he has got himself in shape and it seems he's just recently learning what top level football is about.

But he's got loads to do. Prove to us he can keep up this level of fitness and application. Nobody has been proved wrong by a few weeks of decent performances.

And get some goals! Bits of nice control and turns won't win games.

 

[Grande]

So not like Zlatan.

Well deduced!

 

[Grande]

Yeah, I just think that fans in general are waaaay too quick to write a player off. Countless players have been deemed “never good enough” just to be praised the next game by the same fans.

Tyler Dibling is a no-brainer and the next Mo Salah, if United don’t buy him someone should get fired, it’s a travesty, and btw he is too lightweight and lacks end product will end in tears we should sell now before nobody will touch him mark my words!!!

 

[Mick1]

That's fair enough, but it still doesn't explain why the club signed somebody with such little goal threat when Hojilund was and still is so incredibly raw. Zirkzee showing potential is great, but I don't agree with bailing the club out by claiming they had some kind of foresight. We needed a striker last summer, nobody can possibly argue with that given the season we've just endured.

Because with Rashford/ Garnacho playing as Inside forwards and Bruno capable of running past the striker, a typical 9 would be starved of service, as we saw with Hojlund.. You re better off having a Firminho/younger Benzema/prime Rooney type deep lying striker that allows runners off him.

An Attackers role is not just to score, an attackers role is to help the team score even if they don't do it themselves.

 

[Matt851]

He turned up heavy and without the required fitness. He can't be that hard a worker and trainer.

According to Amorim just recently he has slimmed down and picked up some speed. Kind of ridiculous really it's taken this long. That's not somebody who by all accounts is a great trainer.

Glad that he has got himself in shape and it seems he's just recently learning what top level football is about.

But he's got loads to do. Prove to us he can keep up this level of fitness and application. Nobody has been proved wrong by a few weeks of decent performances.

And get some goals! Bits of nice control and turns won't win games.

He is clearly better than he showed early I the season but can't see him ever scoring many goals. His finishing is poor and he often seems happy to admire his own passes rathe than getting in the box

 

[Fabian Kellar 2]

Yeah, he's turned it out around for me. I was also saying hes one of the worst players (if not the worst) ive ever seen for us back in October or whatever was is. Obviously needs some goals, but he's so silky. Silky is how I would describe him and he has this endearing vibe about him -- maybe its his face, looks like a labrador.

Anyway...

"there's a player in there" as all the pundits keep repeating.

 

[Raoul]

My prediction for Zirkzee is he'll leave in 2 or 3 years but leave as a cult hero. Similar to someone like Diego Forlan.

Agreed. Glad he's improving but there's no reason to get too excited and I don't suspect he will have a consistent starting role next year if, as most predict, we are buying a proper striker.

 

[Luca[4]]

He was also never a 9 which is what people misguidedly thought he was. There’s so much more to his game than just that.

exactly
he was more of a number 10 in bologna, played fantastic as a link up striker, created a lot for his teammates
didnt score much, around 12 goals if im not wrong, not a huge number considering they had the best season in the last 60 years maybe

 

[Annouchez]

He turned up heavy and without the required fitness. He can't be that hard a worker and trainer.

According to Amorim just recently he has slimmed down and picked up some speed. Kind of ridiculous really it's taken this long. That's not somebody who by all accounts is a great trainer.

Glad that he has got himself in shape and it seems he's just recently learning what top level football is about.

But he's got loads to do. Prove to us he can keep up this level of fitness and application. Nobody has been proved wrong by a few weeks of decent performances.

And get some goals! Bits of nice control and turns won't win games.

You’re right he does need to add goals to his game BUT his nice bits of control and turns could help us win games… his nice control and pass resulted in a red card for the other team which definitely helped us win the game. On another night he would have had some assists too via his silky play, which can help us win games the last time I checked.

Give him time. His nice control and turns can be a game changer for us.

 

[Buster15]

Agreed. Glad he's improving but there's no reason to get too excited and I don't suspect he will have a consistent starting role next year if, as most predict, we are buying a proper striker.

My biggest concern is that he is really slow, along with an obvious lack of strength, upper body mainly.
I doubt he will be able to do much about his lack of pace. But clearly he can improve his physical strength.

 

[Raoul]

My biggest concern is that he is really slow, along with an obvious lack of strength, upper body mainly.
I doubt he will be able to do much about his lack of pace. But clearly he can improve his physical strength.

I'm not as much concerned about his pace as I am his actual role in an Amorim starting XI. He wasn't an Amorim buy and I don't suspect there will be a consistent starting XI spot for the role he currently plays next year; in fact, the only reason he has been featuring at all is because of Hojlund's ineffectiveness. He could at best become a poor man's Berba, which would allow him to be a consistent and reliable squad player who is brought on situationally.

 

[golden_blunder]

Big big Joshua Z
He looks like a tree
By the end of the year
He'll have a scored three

U2 have you covered, ‘The Josh Tree’ with hits such as “we still haven’t found what we’re looking for”

 

[Isotope]

Agreed. Glad he's improving but there's no reason to get too excited and I don't suspect he will have a consistent starting role next year if, as most predict, we are buying a proper striker.

His improvement is the one that getting people excited. It just throws away opinion that he ‘must’ be sold as he has no use. And now he does things that we haven’t seen often in this team.

Anyway, a big win in Europa game and him as one of our best players, just contribute as much for the excitement. And probably if we lost, people wouldn’t get too excited even if he put similar performance.

 

[Raoul]

His improvement is the one that getting people excited. It just throws away opinion that he ‘must’ be sold as he has no use. And now he does things that we haven’t seen often in this team.

Anyway, a big win in Europa game and him as one of our best players, just contribute as much for the excitement. And probably if we lost, people wouldn’t get too excited even if he put similar performance.

His improvement is encouraging and I hope he stays on as a squad player, since its becoming increasingly apparent Hojlund is not up to the task and will probably be offloaded in the summer for a massive financial loss, in favor of a proper #9.

 

[CasaStreets]

Agreed. Glad he's improving but there's no reason to get too excited and I don't suspect he will have a consistent starting role next year if, as most predict, we are buying a proper striker.

But he won’t be fighting for a striker spot… he’ll be fighting for one of two 10 spots. Right now his competition there is Garna and (soon to be) Mount. I think we’ll add a 10 this summer, but I’d say he’s in with a fighting chance to start.

Btw I think Bruno stays in CM and Amad stays primarily at RWB next season. Maybe Mainoo also competitive for #10 role but that’s questionable.

 

[Raoul]

But he won’t be fighting for a striker spot… he’ll be fighting for one of two 10 spots. Right now his competition there is Garna and (soon to be) Mount. I think we’ll add a 10 this summer, but I’d say he’s in with a fighting chance to start.

Btw I think Bruno stays in CM and Amad stays primarily at RWB next season. Maybe Mainoo also competitive for #10 role but that’s questionable.

I don’t think he will provide much value there if we buy a proper #9. He’s neither a good finisher nor a world class passer of the ball, so I suspect Bruno and Mount (both of whom have a fair amount of goals in them when available) will be the main #10s and Zirkzee will play situationally.

That shouldn’t be an issue given the amount of fixtures, injuries, suspensions etc that teams have to contend with over the course of 50-60 fixtures.

We are almost certainly buying a new CM since Mainoo may be sold, and even if he isn’t, we already know Rueben doesn’t think he’s a good fit at CM. Casemiro and Eriksen are old and unable to play consistently, and Collyer is still learning the ropes, so Ugarte will need a new partner, whether Ederson or a comparable player.

 

[FrankWhite]

I quite like him. I just find it hard to get over the idiots in charge buying him to play as a striker.
Maybe if / when we finally get a striker i can just appreciate him for what he is

I have seen alot of takes like this. From yourself, @Plant0x84 and others.
I have been a big advocate of Zirkzee since he signed. I actually think he was very well suited to 9 (false 9) the role in ETH's system. The inside forwards were meant to be the main scorer. His role was to primarily facilitate and chip in a few, here and there, like firmino.
That system failed for other reasons but Zirkzee also took a while to settle.

He is however not suited to the CF role in this system, where the CF is make to spearhead the attack.
I had reservations about him defensively as a 10, as I didn't think he could make that run from the middle to the sideline to cover the fullback consistently enough. Past couple of games though, he's showed some sideline of profess doing this. If he can continue to improve this as well as his shooting, then he'd definitely have a future with us.

 

[Marwood]

But he won’t be fighting for a striker spot… he’ll be fighting for one of two 10 spots. Right now his competition there is Garna and (soon to be) Mount. I think we’ll add a 10 this summer, but I’d say he’s in with a fighting chance to start.

Btw I think Bruno stays in CM and Amad stays primarily at RWB next season. Maybe Mainoo also competitive for #10 role but that’s questionable.

I think we'll sign a RWB this summer. I can't see the intention being to play Amad there when we've opted not to do that this season even though the alternative isn't great.

Which means Amad at 10. Along with Mount, Mainoo, Zirkzee and Garnacho.

And that's assuming we don't sign another one and Bruno stays at CM.

Too many 10's basically, will need a bit of restructuring.

 

[Pexbo]

There’s plenty of players who have succeeded in the premier league without pace. Some have because of his size, some because they had his technical ability. He has both. It’s just a case of him really learning how to use them.

 

[Ekeke]

He's had 1.5 good games

2.5 if you count Everton for the 2 goals, you also have to count it for Rashford with the same

It was also 1.5 games against the same Spanish opposition. I hope its the start of him being a decent player for us but its also possible that it also had to do with the fact it was a Spanish team and not a more physical premier league team.

I dont think pace/speed is a problem for him. Much bigger concerns are goals, assists and decision making. These are the things he's missed this season - As we've seen with Hojlund, pace doesnt make up for not having those. Hopefully the consistency of his first touch and pass technique improves with confidence for now he has too many poor efforts to think he's particuarly great at either, but every several attempts he gets one right and when he does it looks very good.

His run down the left last game did remind me of the skill Ibrahimovic had to take on players, hopefully lots more of that to come

 

[FrankWhite]

He's had 1.5 good games

2.5 if you count Everton for the 2 goals, you also have to count it for Rashford with the same

It was also 1.5 games against the same Spanish opposition. I hope its the start of him being a decent player for us but its also possible that it also had to do with the fact it was a Spanish team and not a more physical premier league team.

I dont think pace/speed is a problem for him. Much bigger concerns are goals, assists and decision making. These are the things he's missed this season - As we've seen with Hojlund, pace doesnt make up for not having those. Hopefully the consistency of his first touch and pass technique improves with confidence for now he has too many poor efforts to think he's particuarly great at either, but every several attempts he gets one right and when he does it looks very good.

His run down the left last game did remind me of the skill Ibrahimovic had to take on players, hopefully lots more of that to come

He's had more good games than that. Remember Palace away under ETH?

 

[Ekeke]

He's had more good games than that. Remember Palace away under ETH?

Yes. I remember. 1.5 good games

 

[Redstain]

What I like about Joshua is his general influence has helped the team's performances with him in the 10. Much like Poch last season towards his final months for Chelsea, Amorim has stumbled on a selection of players that's working due to injuries.

Bruno is better in the central midfield as is Casemiro when in possession compared to Ugrate. If Ugarte played the fixture in the Europa league, United would have lost or struggled in the game even further. What they both offer is balance, Casemiro has always been a cerebral player even in his prime and I favour this over someone cleaning up the midfield tirelessly especially in a formation that is structurally supportive of better defensive solidarity.

The team has played more compressed as a result and this is situated with players like Zirkzee being more instrumental in possession.

I don't see Mount being successful in the 10, everyone including the manager is referring to his performances 4 years ago in a European competition as a catalyst to assess his feasibility. It's unprecedented to logically use this as a basis assessing the player, this was around the same time Eden Hazard was featuring regularly for Madrid its that long ago. It's too small of a sample size and if he's deployed there I see him struggling to impact games no different to the 32 appearances he's already made for United.

 

[Hammondo]

Probably our best link up player.

 

[Woziak]

What I like about Joshua is his general influence has helped the team's performances with him in the 10. Much like Poch last season towards his final months for Chelsea, Amorim has stumbled on a selection of players that's working due to injuries.

Bruno is better in the central midfield as is Casemiro when in possession compared to Ugrate. If Ugarte played the fixture in the Europa league, United would have lost or struggled in the game even further. What they both offer is balance, Casemiro has always been a cerebral player even in his prime and I favour this over someone cleaning up the midfield tirelessly especially in a formation that is structurally supportive of better defensive solidarity.

The team has played more compressed as a result and this is situated with players like Zirkzee being more instrumental in possession.

I don't see Mount being successful in the 10, everyone including the manager is referring to his performances 4 years ago in a European competition as a catalyst to assess his feasibility. It's unprecedented to logically use this as a basis assessing the player, this was around the same time Eden Hazard was featuring regularly for Madrid its that long ago. It's too small of a sample size and if he's deployed there I see him struggling to impact games no different to the 32 appearances he's already made for United

I agree with you word for word on Mount, I just don’t see him being that player that run for 90 minutes tirelessly. I think Amorim actually fancies Zirkzee strength of character and resolve, there are rumours that he’s doing extra training with the coaching staff and one of the last to leave Carrington.

The last game which I attended at old Trafford did show glimpses of Amorim system being successful but it’s so reliant on all the back three being highly mobile, especially the wide two CB’s. Both Mazraoui and Heaven were able to carry the ball further up the field pushing the team in more advanced positions and opening up far more passing lanes.

Mazroui worked well with Dalot and Garnaucho and created far more threat down the right side in recent weeks and Heaven, Dorgu, Zirkzee side was really a delight for most of the game. Dorgu has much to learn but he’s rapid and creates fear in the opposition, especially when you have Zirkzee who has a very high football IQ and has the right weight of pass for those runs.

Watching Thursday, Dorku gave us the width on the left and Garnaucho on the right while Dalot and Zirkzee mostly operated in the dual 10’s, I just can’t see Mount being fit enough to rely on for the Coach?

 

[CallyRed]

Decent cameo.

 

[Fortitude]

He's looking faster and fitter by the game. Hard thing to accomplish in the thick of a season.

 

[pocco]

Crazy turnaround really, I’m definitely eating my words. It’s funny that he’s gone from struggling, to being subbed on and feeling like he’s a safe pair of hands that’ll probably take us up a level. Just goes to show what a bit of confidence and mainly, backing from the supporters, can do for a player.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Just looks more confident on the ball to take people on. Actually showcasing his physical attributes all of the sudden.

Hope he has a strong end of the season.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

He looks a lot more faster. Last time I posted here I said we should still sell him because his top level is not good enough and definitely made me eat those words. Just hope he keeps this up

 

[Pickle85]

Showed a turn of pace I didn't know he had to beat their fullback. Getting better and better. Good on him after what must have been a pretty emotionally bruising start to his career here.

 

[Rainy nights in Stoke]

Yeah, he's turned it out around for me. I was also saying hes one of the worst players (if not the worst) ive ever seen for us back in October or whatever was is. Obviously needs some goals, but he's so silky. Silky is how I would describe him and he has this endearing vibe about him -- maybe its his face, looks like a labrador.

Anyway...

"there's a player in there" as all the pundits keep repeating.

One of the worst you’ve ever seen! I hope you got some solid abuse for that, crazy take (unless you’ve only seen like 10 matches)

 

[Poborsky's hair]

I am actually one of the few believers in him from the beginning but dont think he was all that good today except for that one run. A lot of almost moments for him like every game he plays for us, because he's way too slow and just not strong enough.
I think in the summer if he can add 5-10% of explosiveness and more stamina on him, he can be a decent squad player.

 

[andersj]

Really dislike that VAR/refs allow that sort of play from Faes. He knows what he is doing, and it is really dangerous.

 

[Woziak]

You’re right he does need to add goals to his game BUT his nice bits of control and turns could help us win games… his nice control and pass resulted in a red card for the other team which definitely helped us win the game. On another night he would have had some assists too via his silky play, which can help us win games the last time I checked.

Give him time. His nice control and turns can be a game changer for us.

He has two assists however had we had more clinical finishing, he might have had 7 or 8 assists by now. He has all the physical tools to get you 12-13,goals and assists a season in the PL and 17-20 overall in 45-50 Matches.

 

[NZT-One]

He has two assists however had we had more clinical finishing, he might have had 7 or 8 assists by now. He has all the physical tools to get you 12-13,goals and assists a season in the PL and 17-20 overall in 45-50 Matches.

Wouldn't be a true Woziak post without at least 2 different made up numbers in there.

 

[Ayoba]

I'm warming to him

 

[100]

Really dislike that VAR/refs allow that sort of play from Faes. He knows what he is doing, and it is really dangerous.

The old health and safety written in blood adage. We just wait for a serious injury before it’s looked at

 

[Oranges038]

Him and Faes arguing over who had the best hair was a decent highlight. Otherwise he was pretty average, always harder coming on as a sub, especially in a game like today. So he gets a pass today.