[Ichabod Ferguson]

Wout Weghorst the cult hero feck me.

Plenty of people love him despite being a carthose. I always found it a bit odd because I think he might be the worst footballer I've ever seen at United (although some competition in this current crop), but there you go.

 

[zbcrow15]

Feel sorry for him. Hes been at the club less than half a season and the fans have already made up their minds. In a more functional team he would just be taken out of the spotlight for a few weeks and given some time to build up his confidence. He is clearly a player that needs confidence, and I hope Amorim is putting his arm around him now - the classy thing to do now would be to come out and take the heat in public, regardless of what is said behind closed doors.

As it is, I am guessing he gets a loan in January. I hope he finds his form and confidence again. This club has become incredibly toxic in a lot of ways - and this is just one more example of players getting scapegoated and abused by so-called fans, same way as Fellaini, Maguire and McTominay did before. Pathetic.

Yeah, the booing of a guy that got hooked after 30 minutes was unnecessary. Especially when we put out a terrible midfield. Everyone knew that this was coming once the lineup was announced.

 

[Lizanne]

I genuinely felt bad for Zirksee. He was no worse than several others on the pitch. It was poorly handled by Amorim. He should have taken him off at halftime but I suspect that he simply didn't expect the fans to react so strongly to the substitution. This will take some time to rebuild the boy's self-confidence.

 

[Red in STL]

Plenty of people love him despite being a carthose. I always found it a bit odd because I think he might be the worst footballer I've ever seen at United (although some competition in this current crop), but there you go.

Weggy is far from the worst I've seen play for the club! Obviously he wasn't good enough but no one could ever say he didn't give it his all, that is why he's a cult hero to some, bit like Diego Forlan in that respect

 

[Litch]

I find it hard to believe the current situation at the club would be worsened had Rashford been booed when he started dropping stinkers whilst walking around the pitch. Perhaps, even, it could have been the kick up his arse he needed. Players can be nurtured and supported whilst being held to certain standards of effort and application.

Zirkzee might be young, but he has no connection to the club or the fans, and hasn't for one second looked like he's bothered. He'd be forgiven for being not good enough, as have plenty of players who have become cult heroes (Weghorst being the most recent example) and he's not being booed for that, he's being booed because he doesn't work hard. That's unforgivable and fans have every right to express it.

Absolute BS. If he didn't work hard enough, this manager wouldn't have played him. I think people have selective memories if you are using Weghorst and cult heroes in the same sentence. If you think booing a player who arrived just 6 months ago, at arguably the worst time in modern history, you need to read up on the clubs history.
This kind of fan attitude, you would never had a Giggs or Ronaldo.

 

[Red_Aaron]

The decision making process to get this guy should be a case study for the club. I'd love to see the scouting reports. Unbelievably poor work from the football people involved.

The more I watch him the more I doubt anyone actually bothered to watch him play. Reckon an agent took us for a ride with some Milan interest stories and we jumped right in.

Ticks a lot of boxes on a spreadsheet. Good age, good physical profile, good price and terms, reasonable stats last season. Very moneyballesque on paper

Regardless of his actual ability it looks clear as day he hasn't the character to play here. Fergie put so much stock in a players character for a reason and our ignoring this has been our biggest issue in signing players since he left imo

 

[Ichabod Ferguson]

Absolute BS. If he didn't work hard enough, this manager wouldn't have played him. I think people have selective memories if you are using Weghorst and cult heroes in the same sentence. If you think booing a player who arrived just 6 months ago, at arguably the worst time in modern history, you need to read up on the clubs history.
This kind of fan attitude, you would never had a Giggs or Ronaldo.

He's playing because we have feck all other choice.

Ronaldo and Giggs are baffling comparisons. Couldn't honestly think of two less similar players. Sure, they were inconsistent and frustrating when young, but both played with an intensity and a desire to positively change a game that we have never ever seen from Zirkzee. It's precisely the lack of those qualities in Zirkzee that is why we are where we are with him.

 

[Devil81]

Plenty of people love him despite being a carthose. I always found it a bit odd because I think he might be the worst footballer I've ever seen at United (although some competition in this current crop), but there you go.

Manucho, Diouf, Bebe and Dong.

That four by far the worst we've had. Notable mention for David Bellion as well.

 

[Litch]

The more I watch him the more I doubt anyone actually bothered to watch him play. Reckon an agent took us for a ride with some Milan interest stories and we jumped right in.

Ticks a lot of boxes on a spreadsheet. Good age, good physical profile, good price and terms, reasonable stats last season. Very moneyballesque on paper

Regardless of his actual ability it looks clear as day he hasn't the character to play here. Fergie put so much stock in a players character for a reason and our ignoring this has been our biggest issue in signing players since he left imo

I don't know if he's good enough or not but after just 6 months, not signed by this manager and coming to the club at the worst time in modern history. Doesn't context matter anymore?

 

[Mike Smalling]

Ticks a lot of boxes on a spreadsheet. Good age, good physical profile, good price and terms, reasonable stats last season. Very moneyballesque on paper

Even this is debateable. Age and price, sure, even though price is clearly linked to quality. Arguably we got rinsed.

Physical profile is only good at an extremely superficial level. He’s tall and looks strong. That’s it. Pace and agility is dreadful.

Stats also pretty dubious. Is 11 goals in Serie A really what we are looking for, given that is just about what Højlund was bought on the back of? Really we should be looking at players that got twice that.

 

[Ichabod Ferguson]

Manucho, Diouf, Bebe and Dong.

That four by far the worst we've had. Notable mention for David Bellion as well.

Don't forget Djemba x2 and Kleberson.

At least with the Fergie era shite he was absolutely ruthless with them and they tended to cost pennies. I wouldn't be surprised if Zirkzee already has more appearances than the four you mentioned.

For some reason, however, top red fans try to convince themselves that if we don't give dross at least 2 years it is somehow betraying the heritage of the club. Christ, anyone who remembers the post Schmeichal diasters would have expected him to bin Onana in January last year, I think.

 

[bosnian_red]

The more I watch him the more I doubt anyone actually bothered to watch him play. Reckon an agent took us for a ride with some Milan interest stories and we jumped right in.

Ticks a lot of boxes on a spreadsheet. Good age, good physical profile, good price and terms, reasonable stats last season. Very moneyballesque on paper

Regardless of his actual ability it looks clear as day he hasn't the character to play here. Fergie put so much stock in a players character for a reason and our ignoring this has been our biggest issue in signing players since he left imo

Even this is debateable. Age and price, sure, even though price is clearly linked to quality. Arguably we got rinsed.

Physical profile is only good at an extremely superficial level. He’s tall and looks strong. That’s it. Pace and agility is dreadful.

Stats also pretty dubious. Is 11 goals in Serie A really what we are looking for, given that is just about what Højlund was bought on the back of? Really we should be looking at players that got twice that.

He was pretty shit on the spreadsheet. Here was statsbomb's profile on him (scroll down for a few more tweets on him) which I remember posting in the summer as I wasn't really keen on him and thought he'd just be a squad player CF behind Hojlund. It was just a dumb signing.




Incidentally I do think he's a better player than Hojlund for what it's worth. And if anything, both Hojlund and Zirkzee impressed in a 3-5-2 in the Serie A where they could be a strike partnership together, but yeah that's not what Amorim plays and I doubt they could do much in the prem together anyway.

 

[Red_Aaron]

I don't know if he's good enough or not but after just 6 months, not signed by this manager and coming to the club at the worst time in modern history. Doesn't context matter anymore?

Of course but the context when he joined was that we weren't very good and everyone knew ETH was in the last chance saloon.

He as a new player is also expected to raise the level right, make us a better team. He can't just point at everything around him and say how am I supposed to work in these conditions. He needs to pull his socks up and start performing

I appreciate that sounds harsh and by no means is he alone in this situation but that's the point I'm at now with this squad. To a man it's not been good enough and I'm sick of excuses for a lack of basic effort from supposedly professional players

 

[Red_Aaron]

Even this is debateable. Age and price, sure, even though price is clearly linked to quality. Arguably we got rinsed.

Physical profile is only good at an extremely superficial level. He’s tall and looks strong. That’s it. Pace and agility is dreadful.

Stats also pretty dubious. Is 11 goals in Serie A really what we are looking for, given that is just about what Højlund was bought on the back of? Really we should be looking at players that got twice that.

I don't disagree, like I said I genuinely doubt anyone watched him. Someone cherry picked some facts, slapped a rose tint on them and splurged. They probably thought they were being clever unearthing a hidden gem

 

[Squeaky_Bum_Time]

Who was the last player to be booed like this? Was it Pogba? Things got toxic with Maguire but I don’t remember booing.

I was surprised by the reaction yesterday, it is uncharacteristic of the OT crowd, but we’re in a pretty bad situation and Zirkzee ended up bearing the brunt of the reaction to it.

 

[Litch]

He's playing because we have feck all other choice.

Ronaldo and Giggs are baffling comparisons. Couldn't honestly think of two less similar players. Sure, they were inconsistent and frustrating when young, but both played with an intensity and a desire to positively change a game that we have never ever seen from Zirkzee. It's precisely the lack of those qualities in Zirkzee that is why we are where we are with him.

Absolutely nonsense and you know it. There were other options clearly as we seen it after 30 mins!!!
Young players need support and patience, that's my comparison. Zirkzee has a particular style of play, not comparing them but Berb wasn't too dissimilar, and absolutely nothing to do with his application or attitude.

Fred and Scott ran around with desire and intensity and the fanbase couldn't wait to see the back of them. Apparently 'Weggy' is now a cult hero cause he did the same. Some fans just have selective memories when it suits.

Irrespective of all the BS, booing a utd player should never happen under no circumstances but maybe that's just me....

 

[Hester_manc]

Christian Eriksen said this to danish TV (Viaplay) after the match:

They could have turned against everyone in the first half.
Of course I think it's a shame for Josh that he was the one who ended up looking like the black sheep who was substituted in the first half like that, but it could have been all of us.
As I said, it's a shame for Josh. He is a good guy, and hopefully he will get the support he needs from both us and the fans, and then he will probably come back again, says Eriksen.

 

[Litch]

Christian Eriksen said this to danish TV (Viaplay) after the match:

They could have turned against everyone in the first half.
Of course I think it's a shame for Josh that he was the one who ended up looking like the black sheep who was substituted in the first half like that, but it could have been all of us.
As I said, it's a shame for Josh. He is a good guy, and hopefully he will get the support he needs from both us and the fans, and then he will probably come back again, says Eriksen.

Yep, from a season pro and no mention of the lack of Zirkees application or attitude.

 

[Crackers]

Christian Eriksen said this to danish TV (Viaplay) after the match:

They could have turned against everyone in the first half.
Of course I think it's a shame for Josh that he was the one who ended up looking like the black sheep who was substituted in the first half like that, but it could have been all of us.
As I said, it's a shame for Josh. He is a good guy, and hopefully he will get the support he needs from both us and the fans, and then he will probably come back again, says Eriksen.

He's right here, but have they got the mentality required to respond to their pressure? It's crap that Zirkzee had to bear the weight of the collective frustrations but it shouldn't be a surprise. Fans have been very patient over the last few years, they need to show something in return.

 

[Hester_manc]

Yep, from a season pro and no mention of the lack of Zirkees application or attitude.

I always see it as a positive sign when a player tries to defend a teammate.

 

[Litch]

I always see it as a positive sign when a player tries to defend a teammate.

Agree and not the kind of player that would have commented on it if he didn't have to.

 

[Red in STL]

Manucho, Diouf, Bebe and Dong.

That four by far the worst we've had. Notable mention for David Bellion as well.

William Prunier trumps them

 

[Litch]

William Prunier trumps them

Who was the French lad who was suppose to be the next Henry? I think we sold him to Newcastle?

 

[EireRed_GS]

I'm going to strongly disagree with this. Our players have over a period of years been shielded by the fans in the stadium.

I appreciate football hipsters consider demanding hard work from your players akin to voting for Brexit, but I think the least you can demand from any football player is they put in the effort. Zirkzee has turned up, dropped stinker after stinker and hasn't even had the common decency to try.

Our fans absolutely have the right to criticise players who take the piss, as Zirkzee has done since he's got here.

I'm glad he apparently cares enough to be upset about it, because nothing about his time at United so far would suggest he cares at all, hopefully if he plays for us again he will remember it and put in some effort. He'll still probably be shit, but that you can't blame him for, not trying you very much can.

On a personal level I feel for him being thrown into a shit show and being severely over promoted, and I think it's best for all of us if we part ways in January, but his own attitude and style are responsible for why people have turned on him.

He's not one of the players that have been shielded over the years though. He's still a newbie at the club, and not one of the ones been stealing a living for a long time. So he didnt deserve that reaction at all. We have seen the likes of Martial, lingard, Maguire and Pogba get jeered going off after being sh*t/ looking a whole lot less interested in a game than Zirkzee did, and they didnt get anything close to that last night.

His application hasnt been amazing, but i wouldnt say he doesnt try or is taking the piss, he's just simply nowhere near good enough.

He tried last night but his touch and passing was just utter rubbish and gave the ball away every touch. Amorim was right to hook him off, but he shouldnt have started him in the first place.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Who was the French lad who was suppose to be the next Henry? I think we sold him to Newcastle?

Obertan?

 

[Litch]

Obertan?

That's him....

 

[Ichabod Ferguson]

Absolutely nonsense and you know it. There were other options clearly as we seen it after 30 mins!!!
Young players need support and patience, that's my comparison. Zirkzee has a particular style of play, not comparing them but Berb wasn't too dissimilar, and absolutely nothing to do with his application or attitude.
Fred and Scott ran around with desire and intensity and the fanbase couldn't wait to see the back of them. Apparently 'Weggy' is now a cult hero cause he did the same. Some fans just have selective memories when it suits.

Irrespective of all the BS, booing a utd player should never happen under no circumstances but maybe that's just me....

You're picking some really odd examples here for someone who is accusing others of selective memories.

When were Fred or McTominay booed?

And Berbatov was constantly criticised for his style and was significantly less popular than Tevez who, you guessed it, worked harder. In fact, it was the number one point of controversy that surrounded his entire time here and it flared up every time he went for a period when he didn't score. Tevez's subsequent move to City got him so much hate because he was such a fan favourite.

The bold is the crux of it. There's a bunch of our fans like you who think that anything other than matchgoers sitting around clapping like seals is unacceptable. All the while standards have eroded year on year. Those two things aren't directly related, but I can't imagine fans of any other big club would have been so accommodating of a decline into irrelevance as ours have been, and yet here we still are arguing about whether the power of wishful thinking or hope can bring us back.

Zirkzee might be unlucky to be the first, but when the club is on the cusp of flirting with relegation I'm not going to lose a second of sleep over players getting feedback if they don't fulfill minimal expectations like 'run' or 'try and get involved'.

 

[Red in STL]

Who was the French lad who was suppose to be the next Henry? I think we sold him to Newcastle?

Obertan

 

[Litch]

You're picking some really odd examples here for someone who is accusing others of selective memories.

When were Fred or McTominay booed?

And Berbatov was constantly criticised for his style and was significantly less popular than Tevez who, you guessed it, worked harder. In fact, it was the number one point of controversy that surrounded his entire time here. Tevez's subsequent move to City got him so much hate because he was such a fan favourite.

The bold is the crux of it. There's a bunch of our fans like you who think that anything other than matchgoers sitting around clapping like seals is unacceptable. All the while standards have eroded year on year. Zirkzee might be unlucky to be the first, but when the club is on the cusp of flirting with relegation I'm not going to lose a second of sleep over players getting feedback if they don't fulfill minimal expectations like 'run' or 'try and get involved'.

Never said Fred or Scott was booed?
People view of Berb was wrong too.
Each to their own, just think it's unfair and not what this club was built on. Trust me, if I was a young player I'd think twice about signing for a club whose fans think I'm shit after just 6 months and boo me. These things matter to modern footballers.

 

[Uncle Mainoo]

'Freudian slip' mentioning something racial cause I didn't? I think integrity, fairness, compassion, being humanistic etc....are more important than Football. The fact he gets hooked after 30 mins, that's a football decision but why do fans think booing is the answer? The lad just arrived at the club this season and fans think that's OK. Do you you think the club was built on this kind of support? It's fecking disgusting and I'm embarrassed as a utd fan.

This is football. Your asking for comparison and rational within a 90 minute game where Manchester United are 14th around Christmas.

This is the epitome of a crisis. At the end of the day if Zirkzee can’t deal with it maybe this isn’t the club for him.

We care too much about external circumstances when players before these have literally give their lives to continue a man’s vision of making this the best club in English football. We are not a joke nor a soft touch and it is the lack of understanding and removal of our successful culture and standards as to why we are in the position we currently are.

If you want to care about integrity, compassion and all those things you mentioned maybe your aim isn’t what most of us want, which is to be the best club in England again. You literally have to give your life over to this club to benefit the rewards. Not my words, Patrice Evra says it. Roy Keane has said it. We have players here that have took sabbaticals midway through a season, built campaigns with the government etc etc. Your job here is to represent the biggest club in England and win the major trophies. If you can’t achieve that you are a failure. Regardless if it’s Zirkzee, Lisandro or Harry Maguire.

The only issue I see here is that he got substituted first.

 

[Litch]

This is football. Your asking for comparison and rational within a 90 minute game where Manchester United are 14th around Christmas.

This is the epitome of a crisis. At the end of the day if Zirkzee can’t deal with it maybe this isn’t the club for him.

We care too much about external circumstances when players before these have literally give their lives to continue a man’s vision of making this the best club in English football. We are not a joke nor a soft touch and it is the lack of understanding and removal of our successful culture and standards as to why we are in the position we currently are.

If you want to care about integrity, compassion and all those things you mentioned maybe your aim isn’t what most of us want, which is to be the best club in England again. You literally have to give your life over to this club to benefit the rewards. Not my words, Patrice Evra says it. Roy Keane has said it. We have players here that have took sabbaticals midway through a season, built campaigns with the government etc etc. Your job here is to represent the biggest club in England and win the major trophies. If you can’t achieve that you are a failure. Regardless if it’s Zirkzee, Lisandro or Harry Maguire.

The only issue I see here is that he got substituted first.

Yep, this might be football just not for me. You learn more about fans in adversity than when you are winning. Away going fans are testimony of that and I guarantee they wouldn't have booed him....

 

[Irwin99]

I didn’t see a lazy player at all last night, in fact I saw a player who tried to make amends for his mistakes and won two tackles and tried to pressure, admittedly usually after a mistake. What I did see was a player completely unsuited to the league in an awful team who looked just bewildered by the pace of the game.

I feel sorry for the guy and I think most fans are just baffled by the people who thought this would be a good signing, specifically for EtH’s system which was reliant on pace and (supposed) workrate.

 

[Rolaholic]

Terrible

 

[rimaldo]

Terrible

shame he did the same invisibility trick for the 30 mins he was on the pitch.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

Who was the French lad who was suppose to be the next Henry? I think we sold him to Newcastle?

Turned out to be the next Lenny Henry.

 

[Superunknown]

shame he did the same invisibility trick for the 30 mins he was on the pitch.

Ouch!

 

[Freak]

Terrible

That guy might just be painting a different story to the reality. Maybe Joshua was just feeling cold.

 

[Freak]

shame he did the same invisibility trick for the 30 mins he was on the pitch.

 

[Litch]

Turned out to be the next Lenny Henry.

He did!!

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

He needs to have the mental strength to realise he got booed cause it was one of the worst collective 30mins of football this club has put out in a long time and was the easy target for the fans to show their frustration.

On top of this he’s hardly been playing well so I hope he’s more upset about that than the booing. If he takes it to heart and we have another ‘mentally weak’ player on ours hands we need to ship him off at all costs. We haven’t got the time for coddling another one.