I have a solution to this three way problem.
Mourinho to PSG (or RM), Ancelotti to Bayern, Guardiola to City.
Mourinho to PSG (or RM), Ancelotti to Bayern, Guardiola to City.
Even at 3rd position within the league, Barcelona weren't doing so well in 2008. I've had to post this a dozen times, but going with actual historiography in the form of reports at the time, that capture the correct context and setting, is much more accurate than the opinion of a thousand 'tards, so here you and @redmeister go...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/may/08/barcelona.realmadrid
Context on how mediocre La Liga was back in 2008...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/mar/17/europeanfootball.sport2
Seriously though. We don't give Guardiola credit for winning La Liga 3 times on the trot, and we give Carlos Ancelotti a pass for not winning more than one Serie A with the team he had, even against that Juventus side?
We were arguably a couple of players from challenging for the league last season. We possibly would be challenging now if it wasn't for the fact that the other teams also strengthen. We'll buy a couple of players in the summer, but so will City etc.
I'm not sure there are any "managers" around these days. I think we need to go down a different route. No matter how unsure we are about Pep, the fact is he did win things. So did Rijkaard. So we need to be building in a way that makes the job of the head coach easy, rather than expect the head coach to turn the club around. Let's not forget Jupp Heynckes hadn't exactly rocked the football world before his final stint at Bayern when he left behind one of the best club sides ever. So Bayern clearly have a structure in place of the last 5 years that has made the job of head coach pretty easy, unless Heynckes wasn't really trying at other clubs. I don't currently see that with us and I don't see a coach as the man to come in and fix things. I think Liverpool fans were soon learn Klopp didn't build Dortmund.
Guardiola deserves a lot of credit but Ancelotti is underrated his "poor" record in Serie A is explanaible when you look at who played for Inter and Juventus during that period, we tend to forget that it was the best league. Inter had Adriano, Stankovic, Toldo, Zanetti, Cannavaro, Seedorf, Davids, Vieri, Cordoba, Recoba, Cambiasso and many more. It was ridiculous.
Edit: Juventus never had more than 7 losses, they had more than 4 losses only 2 times in 8 seasons.
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Even at 3rd position within the league, Barcelona weren't doing so well in 2008. I've had to post this a dozen times, but going with actual historiography in the form of reports at the time, that capture the correct context and setting, is much more accurate than the opinion of a thousand 'tards, so here you and @redmeister go...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/may/08/barcelona.realmadrid
Context on how mediocre La Liga was back in 2008...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/mar/17/europeanfootball.sport2
Seriously though. We don't give Guardiola credit for winning La Liga 3 times on the trot, and we give Carlos Ancelotti a pass for not winning more than one Serie A with the team he had, even against that Juventus side?
um you havin a go?
I include myself in that category
he did the job well at barca by doing the things (and more) in my post. don't know what you're talking about.
Tight poll.
lol , watch it fella
I wasn't going at you. I was piggybacking on what you said.
However you try and spin it, he still took over in a far better position than Rijkaard did. As I've pointed out in the previous 3 seasons they had finished 4th, 4th and 6th. They were in a real mess, much worse than when Pep took over. Yet even an average coach like Rijkaard, when working in the Barca structure was able to win both La Liga and the CL. So it shows there are very good reasons why people should be unsure about Pep. It's doesn't mean he's not good, but simply that it's hard to tell. I don't get why there is this resistance to that kind of very reasonable thinking. Look at how the Spanish team was dominating internationally at that time, with Xavi and Iniesta at the heart of it. They were the best players at Euro 2008. Am I supposed to believe Luis Aragones is an amazing coach, as Spain were pretty fantastic at that time and this was before Pep? Then when Pep left Barca, didn't they win the league with their best ever points total, despite Tito (RIP) being seriously ill and having to manage without him for much of the season. Isn't that a real head feck for you? If Pep was so vital to Barca's success, then how can he be replaced so easily by someone who is only there part time? Is Luis Enrique an amazing manager?
If you call changing the whole structure of the team and the way they play minimum, then yeah you're right.
Pep is the clear winner, and rightly so. A more interesting poll would be Mourinho vs Ancelotti.
Guardiola first, comfortably. I'd happily take Ancelotti, but his domestic record hasn't always been brilliant and I'm not sure he's a manager who particularly builds with a long-term vision in spite of the fact that he's evidently a brilliant coach. Mourinho lags behind the other two at the moment.
Good point though i think Jose does really well with the underdog mentality. Maybe in the short term it might improve us but I personally prefer Pep - he has that belief of inflicting your game on the opponents & non of this park the bus bullshit.
Ancelotti is a good shout too - though without having the facts available, isn't his league record not that great? Whereas he has a great cup record.
Finally, Mourinho's antics & general lack of class is also a massive no-no.
I'd go for:
Pep > Carlo > Jose
It's worth noting that much of Barca's current success can probably be attributed to what Guardiola built. He benefited massively from Xavi and Iniesta hitting their best years, and Messi truly coming into his own, but he did a lot of work himself. He completed the midfield trio by placing a lot of confidence in Busquets, for example; an excellent decision. He also had the balls to get rid of Ronaldinho, Deco and (provisionally) Eto'o who ended up staying on for another year.
Barca are a club who have managed to create a stable situation at the club wherein they're able to smoothly change from one manager to another. They have a distinct philosophy (heh), and playing style in place, having promoted a very impressive number of youth players over the years, and have bought well. Yeah, they benefit massively from their dominant situation and finances, yet that wouldn't account for the fact that they regularly continue to out-achieve Real Madrid.
Not to mention Guardiola's success at Bayern. Again, he's had the advantage of going to the best team in the league, but that isn't ever a guarantor of success: Guardiola had been able to sustain Bayern as a top side and should surely be granted a lot of credit for that.
No head feck for me. The same way Avram Grant was able to take Mourinho's Chelsea to the final. Great managers create spines that last after they leave.
I'm not sure about that. Mou has always been a divisive figure, whereas Carlo is almost universally loved (other than his league record).
If anything, Mourinho would be ridiculously motivated to dominate here. It's insane how much one terrible year can let his stock drop, but in his case it's not that surprising given that he isn't a generally likable guy.
But the Avram Grant thing should also be a head feck. Fan bang on and on about tactics etc, yet Grant had a better PPG than Mourinho did the previous season. Then take a look at how many key players Grant was missing.
Pep didn't build the spine that won the CL under Rijkaard. He didn't build the spine that won EC and WC's for Spain, with Barca players at the core. Also why did the "spine" perform better the season after Pep left?
It's as if you wont even consider the very reasonable argument that Pep is hard to asses, despite a ton of evidence, showing that in the right circumstances very average coaches can win things.
These are the three best managers active in the game today, so I'd have them in order starting with the very best:
1. Pep
2. Ancelotti
3. Jose
1. Pep
2. Ancelotti
3. Jose
It's not like they were just the best team, they were massively the best team. They won a 34 games season league by 26 points. They then bought the start player from the team than finished 2nd. So you can't really given a lot of credit for sustaining them at the top. The gap has closed despite Bayern spending huge amounts of money.
Again, I'm not saying Pep isn't good, just that it's very hard to tell what his level is given the jobs he's had.
1. Pep
2. Ancelotti
3. Jose
but I only expect Jose to be available.
2. Ancelotti
3. Jose
but I only expect Jose to be available.
For me the best manager in the world right now is Diego Simeone. Not sure if he fits United though.
Not really. Bayern have been utterly rampant this year, and continue to look dominant in the Bundesliga. They've barely dropped any points, and it's almost impossible for them to do any better.
It's still impressive for him to sustain success. It's incredibly easy for a supposedly brilliant team to suddenly unravel, and look like a shadow of its former self within a year or two. Look at Chelsea: comfortable champions last season, and now barely avoiding relegation. Or our 2013 team, which then finished 7th once Fergie left. Or Mourinho's Inter team, which looked like an excellent unit until he left and they fell into obscurity. Or even the 2006 Barca CL winning team; a brilliant side which finished 3rd in 2008.
Granted, you could argue that Bayern are a better side than all of those examples, but Guardiola shouldn't be downplayed. He's got them playing a successful, dominant brand of football and they're one of the two teams most likely to win the CL this year. Not too shabby.
Its bizarre how people are judging Mourinho, like his achievements never happened.
He may have gone off the boil at the moment but he still triumphants both Pep and Ancelotti imo, for what he did at Porto and Inter.
That said i would prefer Pep..
He may have gone off the boil at the moment but he still triumphants both Pep and Ancelotti imo, for what he did at Porto and Inter.
That said i would prefer Pep..
Have to admit Mourinho really appeals to me, like many have said he would be super motivated, and does seem to have genuine United affection for United, add to that his pulling and spending power with us, and ability to win playing well and playing crap (except for this season), plus the fact everyone else would hate him, he really does tick a lot of boxes.
Pep obviously first choice, but Mourinho is no booby prize.
Pep obviously first choice, but Mourinho is no booby prize.
Where is all this love for Ancelotti coming from?
I don't get why Ancelotti is being rated higher than Jose who has won leagues and trebles with much weaker teams than Ancelotti ever had.
Jose has done it against the likes of Fergie and one of the greatest Barcelona teams of all time.
Ancelotti is a cup manager for me for the most part.
Pep or Jose for me..
I don't get why Ancelotti is being rated higher than Jose who has won leagues and trebles with much weaker teams than Ancelotti ever had.
Jose has done it against the likes of Fergie and one of the greatest Barcelona teams of all time.
Ancelotti is a cup manager for me for the most part.
Pep or Jose for me..
I'm willing to entertain a certain amount of doubt regarding Pep's pedigree. However by that standard, every candidate has issues.
It's ridiculous how quickly a manager's stock can rise and fall. In the darkest days at the end of Moyes reign 13/14 it was totally unthinkable that Mourinho, Rodgers and Ancelotti would be jobless just 18 months later.
It's very harsh that people discredit Pep's achievements with Barca. He took over a team that hadn't won the league for 2 years, finishing 3rd. He made some big decisions in getting rid of players, brought some in and promoted some. Inheriting some good players that were under-performing and then having them talked about as one of the greatest teams ever isn't lucky, he implemented and innovated the teams tactics and squad himself.
However, his time at Bayern has shown us nothing in truth. He took over the best team in Europe with an incredible squad, miles ahead of anyone in their domestic league with far more money than the rest, where they can take their rivals best players at will. He's won the league twice but realistically he'd have to be a poor manager not to, and he's been embarrassed in 2 consecutive CL semis. Taking over the treble winners was one of those jobs where he had very little to gain to be honest, but adding to his CL count must have been tempting.
However, his time at Bayern has shown us nothing in truth. He took over the best team in Europe with an incredible squad, miles ahead of anyone in their domestic league with far more money than the rest, where they can take their rivals best players at will. He's won the league twice but realistically he'd have to be a poor manager not to, and he's been embarrassed in 2 consecutive CL semis. Taking over the treble winners was one of those jobs where he had very little to gain to be honest, but adding to his CL count must have been tempting.
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Simeone would be my favourite but he has absolutely no reason to leave Atletico.
Why?
He can't speak English. His style of management needs him to fully speak the language. He is a motivator more than a tactician. Not that he's a bad tactician.
People hate Jose yet want Simeone is strange as Simeone teams are even more defensive.
I will take anyone right about now.
He spent a fortune at Chelsea and Inter (plus a good core at Inter) though and Porto was a good team to be fair. I rate him as one of the best of course but people make it out sometimes that he won trophies with Everton.
My first choice would be Pep Guardiola. I've spoken about it many times, but he just seems like the perfect fit for our club (we're very similar to both Bayern and Barca, probably moreso than any other side is), and would be the best person to take Van Gaal's foundations and build on them, like he has done in the past. Add to that the fact that he is the best manager in the world, and a great character, so really a no-brainer, there.
Should we not get Guardiola my second choice would be Ancelotti. He's very experienced, has Premier League experience too, and is going to get you results if you back him. I feel the same about Mourinho, who I would normally choose before Ancelotti, but I do feel like his results this year could have an impact. I'm sure he's pretty much unfazed by his performance, but the players may not be massively confident going into a Mourinho reign, and we really want to be getting off to the best possible start. Truth is, it probably doesn't matter who would be better out of Mourinho and Ancelotti, because the latter would surely be nailed on to replace Pep should he do one next summer.
Should we not get Guardiola my second choice would be Ancelotti. He's very experienced, has Premier League experience too, and is going to get you results if you back him. I feel the same about Mourinho, who I would normally choose before Ancelotti, but I do feel like his results this year could have an impact. I'm sure he's pretty much unfazed by his performance, but the players may not be massively confident going into a Mourinho reign, and we really want to be getting off to the best possible start. Truth is, it probably doesn't matter who would be better out of Mourinho and Ancelotti, because the latter would surely be nailed on to replace Pep should he do one next summer.
Inter spent loads before he came and never came close to winning the European cup. The players all loved him there and were in tears when he left.
The same goes for Porto. They only won the European cup once in their history before he came.
Pep would have us doing just as amazing things as Ferguson achieved, probably without the longevity but we can't expect all our manager to eclipse him...obviously
If mourhino is better than anvelotti for winning things with porto & inter; he is better than guardiola, only winning things at barcelona.
I do find the love for guardiola a bit weird since not winning the CL with bayern would be a big failure with almost none opposition.
The question isn't "who is the better manager?" though. It's "who is the ideal next Manchester United manager?". Those are two quite different things.
Carlo plays a better brand of football than Mourinho, he is a much classier guy, he doesn't burn out teams in the way Mou does and he's shown at Milan that he can be a long term appointment. Even if Mourinho has the better pedigree we could still be better off with Ancelotti depending on our priorities.