That's something I'll agree with you on. We are capable of playing football, we were the better team after they scored in the first half and the start of the second half. We need to stop being so reactionary though, whether that comes from the manager or the players, I don't know. Regardless, Mourinho needs to sort that out. If we want to win things we need to be far more ruthless and start games strong. We did so at Arsenal and you saw how that panned out.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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That's something I'll agree with you on. We are capable of playing football, we were the better team after they scored in the first half and the start of the second half. We need to stop being so reactionary though, whether that comes from the manager or the players, I don't know. Regardless, Mourinho needs to sort that out. If we want to win things we need to be far more ruthless and start games strong. We did so at Arsenal and you saw how that panned out.
It's cool that you look at it that way. Btw, I don't believe a peak Fergie team would be 11 points behind at this stage. Regardless of how well City would be playing, we would still be somewhat giving them a run for their money.
This is not to say that the point difference is not recoverable, it is football afterall but the difference at this stage (not even half way into the season) is something that you'd expect to find in leagues that have just one runaway leader like Bayern Munich or Juventus. Unless we want to conclude that the difference between City and United is the same difference between Bayern and Wolfsburg because that is the way people are making it look like now.
@NinjaZombie
We could be incrementally better than a year before and still be failing to meet our objectives. What do we expect? To be good enough to take on every team even if we don't always succeed. We played like cowards today.
I don't have an issue with those that back the manager. But do you really not expect us being 11 points behind City and beaten by at home afterward a thoroughly simplistic and archaic peformance from us, to not result in fan style being disappointed?
Had time to calm down now. Shocking tactics from Mourinho at home in a must win game. The ball retention was nil, we bypassed our midfield time and time again. Awful to watch.
Great post! Agree with it all!
It's not a linear correlation between spending and ambition as you suggest. Either way, last year our team looked much better than theirs but this year they seem to have clicked and are in amazing form.
We can definitely talk about the approach and tactics but bringing up spending on the back of a 2-1 loss is not required IMO.
We've been poor in midfield in every game Herrera and Matic have played together this season. We simply look clueless in keeping the ball with Pogba and Felllaini out. So I don't get why some of you expected any different against a City team that has the best midfield in the league and creates overloads of up to 4 or 5 players in the middle at times.
It wasn't pretty but going long was the easiest out ball seeing as only Matic was capable of displaying composure in possession out of the two CMs and back 4.
The goals we conceded weren't anything to do with Mourinho so how he's getting blamed I don't know.
It wasn't pretty but going long was the easiest out ball seeing as only Matic was capable of displaying composure in possession out of the two CMs and back 4.
The goals we conceded weren't anything to do with Mourinho so how he's getting blamed I don't know.
This is also Liverpool does well at Anfield. Yes they are below in the table but they do certain things right. Football at this level, it's fine margins, psychological strength can be a boost.
So you're answer it to try and outplay City at their game and go against how United have player for the past 2 years? Jose will never have his teams play like Pep. We all knew that when he was hired, don't expect something different now. Also City dominated the midfield but hardly created any real chances. So he obviously knew how to control city. We had our chances and didn't finish, and of story. Thats not on the manager it's on the players.
Yeah, agreed. Not only his players haven't performed well, he hasn't made the existing ones play better, with a couple of exceptions of course.
Their first goal wasn't much of a mistake imo, those things happen after a corner.
Hard to blame Lukaku when for 99% of the time he's running all over the place and trying to scrape something out of the hoof balls that are pretty much the only service he's getting for most of the games, and then when opportunity presents itself we expect him to be flawless.
That's not how real football works unfortunately.
I'm not saying Perisic would have fixed that problem, I'm giving you possible proof as to why we maybe didn't have funds to buy a midfielder. Like I said, we had a lot of positions in the squad that needed to be improved, in fact I'd argue our fullbacks could still be improved, maybe a number 10 and a right winger too. We are playing Rashford out right who simply isn't ever going to be good there.
We don't have unlimited funds.
We did try in the last 30 minutes. They were playing without a CF as well. The sad truth is that our players are not comfortable on the ball and cannot hold possession when subjected to intense pressing. As I said, if we had committed players forward in the early stages and then lost possession in midfield, we would have been 2-3 goals down by half-time.
In other words, he's a pretty shit striker, which I agree with.
You do know but refuse to admit of course. We didn't sit back in our half like scared kittens because the players felt like it. It was an obvious tactic. We did the same vs Arsenal except there we pressed when level as opposed to when behind. The latter made no sense whatsoever.
It's a pretty linear correlation. I'll decide what's required in he content of my posts. Thank you.
Doesn't make it wrong, does it?
Copying that from the post match thread, because it belongs here even more.
And after I got a answer that Jose is not to blame when our players do stupid mistakes and that he is a big improvement on Moyes and LvG
And again I am not calling for his head, 2nd and maybe competing for a cup (don't think we have any chance in the CL) wouldn't be that bad and won't be a sackable offence. But we are talking about Jose Mourinho here, one of the supposed best managers in the game, one of the highest earners in the game. We are talking about Manchester United. My expectations are high for a reason and we won't be happy with just finish 2nd or 3rd in the future and we shouldn't be happy with playing like that in the big games, especially if we want to make a deep run in Europe at some point. Is Jose delievering what we expected from him and what a world class manager should do? Would it be any worse with any other good manager, maybe less consistent, maybe better and more entertaining in the big games? We clearly aren't in the dark days of Moyes and LvG anymore, but I don't think we are anywhere close where we should be either and I am not sure we will achieve it with Jose after what we saw in his 1,5 years so far.
And after I got a answer that Jose is not to blame when our players do stupid mistakes and that he is a big improvement on Moyes and LvG
And again I am not calling for his head, 2nd and maybe competing for a cup (don't think we have any chance in the CL) wouldn't be that bad and won't be a sackable offence. But we are talking about Jose Mourinho here, one of the supposed best managers in the game, one of the highest earners in the game. We are talking about Manchester United. My expectations are high for a reason and we won't be happy with just finish 2nd or 3rd in the future and we shouldn't be happy with playing like that in the big games, especially if we want to make a deep run in Europe at some point. Is Jose delievering what we expected from him and what a world class manager should do? Would it be any worse with any other good manager, maybe less consistent, maybe better and more entertaining in the big games? We clearly aren't in the dark days of Moyes and LvG anymore, but I don't think we are anywhere close where we should be either and I am not sure we will achieve it with Jose after what we saw in his 1,5 years so far.
Your Bayern comparison is interesting, because they are runaway leaders, top of a "weaker" league, with 35 points from 15 games. We also picked up 35 points from our first 15 games but apparently it's unacceptable?
From the kick off I meant, we're showing intent only as a reaction. We're not proactive enough.
That has literally nothing to do with what I suggested. If it's hard to blame Lukaku for being a professional footballer who can't clear a ball, then I really don't know what's worthy of blame. He had no City players to the left of him, yet he smashes it to his crowded right, full of City players. He had one of the worst performances I've seen from a United player in a long time, he genuinely just looked starstruck as if the stage was too big for him. His pass to Herrera for the second (first?) goal, was diabolical and was what they got the freekick, which is where he assisted them from. What makes it more baffling was Rashford was on the last man and was most likely through had Lukaku played the ball forwards rather than taking the riskier backpass.
Hoofball is a genuine concern, I don't enjoy it either, but we are shit without Pogba and lose the midfield battle. We don't have anyone that can deal with the press so it's the most logical option. Until we get another player who can actually retain the ball when pressed and make offensive runs with the ball from midfield, it's going to continue that way imo.
Of course people are going to be disappointed that we lost but I'm just not sure what we can expect at the moment. The team isn't even close to being as good as Man City's.
I agree with the frustration at not having a go at them because I think that's the way to beat them but I think ultimately it will end in the same way. City will win the league because they're the best team by a long distance. I also feel that we play better football than we have since Fergie in most games so I've seen enough of an improvement to not be furious at every defeat. Mourinho will always play this way but he's shown before he can make it work and I think he can here with a better team too.
We could get rid of Mourinho and the odds will be that we will continue to be second best to them until such time as our squad improves. Did people really think this squad was good enough?
Nah. He was took off as he took a knock. It's not the first time our cbs resort to hoofing, so it's definitely tactical.
I think everyone need to calm down and objectively assess the season so far. Naturally considering how much we've spent we should be behind city and ahead the rest of the league and that's where we are at the moment. City's unbelievable form this season has made the rest of the league look poor.
My biggest worry with our manager is the insistence on building a team with more emphasis on physical attributes rather than technical ability. The game has moved on from this sort of attributes and we as a club must look to move on too.
Having spent this much I expect us to show more ability on the ball against decent opposition.
Am inclined to support the manager but he must show a clear intent to build a philosophy that will ake us closer to the rest of Europe.We won't close the gap with someone of Smalling's technical ability in defence or Lukaku's in attack.
All in all I implore everyone to calm down, make objective and constructive criticism of our current position.With the rest of Europe not particularly in their attractive best for talent this is our opportunity to close the gap.
My biggest worry with our manager is the insistence on building a team with more emphasis on physical attributes rather than technical ability. The game has moved on from this sort of attributes and we as a club must look to move on too.
Having spent this much I expect us to show more ability on the ball against decent opposition.
Am inclined to support the manager but he must show a clear intent to build a philosophy that will ake us closer to the rest of Europe.We won't close the gap with someone of Smalling's technical ability in defence or Lukaku's in attack.
All in all I implore everyone to calm down, make objective and constructive criticism of our current position.With the rest of Europe not particularly in their attractive best for talent this is our opportunity to close the gap.
This really hasn't been the case at all.
Jose has brought us on leaps and bounds, there's no doubt about that. But he needs to stop worrying about who we're playing and start worrying about what he can control; we have a good squad of players - as good as anyone outside City in this league - give them the confidence to play their own game. Stop reacting and start imposing ourselves. So Pogba was out today - can we really not find a way to play around this? The squad is full of talented players - make it work, don't submit before a ball is kicked. Players get injured, you don't just give up... What must this must be doing to the confidence and moral in the team... "You're no good enough to go and win this" is the message.
But will Jose ever change? I think he probably needs to if he wants a long and successful stint here. Sure, in another world City would have dropped points this season and we'd be right up there, but we can't be waiting for others to fall away to win things.
But will Jose ever change? I think he probably needs to if he wants a long and successful stint here. Sure, in another world City would have dropped points this season and we'd be right up there, but we can't be waiting for others to fall away to win things.
There's literally nothing wrong with that being true.
I was happy with the line up. It also told me nothing about how we would play and how it seemed Mourinho had set us up. The line up is just a selection of your players (ideally your better players). We can criticise anything we like after kick off provided it's not the selection of players.
We got cut up on the counter at the end, that's why. Didn't you notice Sterling playing in midfield in the first half? That's not good conditions to press. That's not good conditions to press. It doesn't even have to be a tactical thing, it can be a mental thing. You normally won't push up if you feel like there's going to be gaps in the midfield.
Herrera has always not been that good - but Jose is inhibiting him from playing his natural game as much as LVG did. Odd to blame it just on Herrera - who had some technical capabilities at least once in a whilst
Yeah there are those who come here purely to shit on the manager, but there are just many self righteous posters who love to moralise about what good fans they are for not criticising the manager...
I was addressing the missed chance…
Also with Pogba in team we still went back to ball hoofing in some matches.
He is incapable of coaching his teams to bypass the press without resorting to hoofs.
Im also not being defeatist, rather realist, and wish all our fans had the maturity to accept such.
Being the best of the best takes a lot of hrs work and many year to achieve.
Facts are facts: we bungled the post SAF era, City got head and that gap is what’s keeping them ahead right now.
Com
Completely agree with every word you said, saved my time typing.
They aren't really the best example, they sacked a manager already for a reason despite beeing top or near the top of the table. They are improving now under Jupp. I don't think 35 points is bad, but we already lost 3 games having played less than a half of the season. So in the end we could lose 6,7 games? That's hardly a title winning record either even if we ignore City's outstanding form.
Mate, are you going to use number of points to cover the reality of the point difference? Whether we have 35 points or 15 points, the fact still remains that we are 11 points behind after 16 games. How can you paint this any other way?
Bloody hell, 12 points if we are going to add the crazy GD.
I really don't. If he wanted to play like 'scared kittens' whatever the feck that means, he would have went with a defensive formation and defensive personnel. He didn't. He could have very easily not played with width and crowded the middle of the pitch, putting Lingard as a third CM and playing with 3 defenders. I think he went for it this game, we just aren't very good without Pogba. You can't win games of this stature when you have two holding midfielders, especially when we are so reliant on creativity from midfield. We were getting destroyed in midfield and against a team like City, that's never going to end well.
Like I said - whether it's down to Jose or the players I don't know. It's something we need to desperately improve though as we are capable of playing football, we just don't do it unless we have to.
Oh give over. Can't any of you just stick to the discussion/argument.
Nobody is denying that it takes time. What we're asking is if Mourinho is the man for that long-term build (because he sure as hell doesn't have a history of doing so).
This is something you address in training ground.
City, Liverpool and somewhat Spurs weren't the possession juggernauts they are now under their previous managers. They are like that because their current managers have installed that in them.
The temp ban was probably automatic for an accumulation of points. He will be back in a couple of days.
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