From 6th last year to a 2nd place finish this is genuine progress and outstanding tbf and would be even more impressive if we had shown some desire against the likes of Huddersfield,West Brom and Brighton,the fact City have had a freak season makes our "failure" look quite bad yet the table does not lie,we are the 2nd best team in the league and that is a fact! So does Jose warrant another season? Of course he does,we are on track and still a work in progress and its a huge summer ahead of us but if we can improve where we need to ie Savic etc then we have pretty much everything needed for a title challenge next year,I mean,in any other season thats exactly what we would be doing right now!
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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I see that quote a lot, even if he is not a success next year he will leave the club in great shape. What is the evidence for this?
Neither of his two centre backs he signed have yet shown that they are going to be long term successes. A new manager in a year or two could be needing a new full defence
Matic has played really well this year and has turned out a good buy, but how many years past his peak will he be in 2 seasons time.
He has signed up Sanchez on a huge long term salary and as good a player as he used to be, he is also well past his best and the new manager could very end up with another old Rooney situation and trying to move him on.
As off yet Mc Tominey is the only player he has brought through from the youth team and I don't think that will be overly exciting for the next manager. Whether Rashford and Martial are still at the club in 2 years time remains to be seen.
He will have to deal with the incredibly frustrating and inconsistent Pogba.
So if Jose left tomorrow, despite spending 300 million the only world class player he would leave would be have been signed by Ferguson. Not exactly a fantastic position I'd suggest.
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He replaced everyone bar Kompany, KDB, Silva, Aguero, Sterling. Including a whole new bench. Take out the players that were already at City and Pep can field a very strong 11.
This is it in a nutshell.
I think @haram and @Regulus Arcturus Black are spot on. He steadied the ship. If we don't push on next season, then we can part ways in May 2019.
I really do hate things like this. Progress isn't a straight upward trajectory. If the club believes that Jose is the right man for the job one season without improvement shouldn't concern them as long as Mourinho is still motivated and wants to be here.
Perspective: we are on course to getting 80+ points without really breaking a sweat given the league has been gone for ages.
We have not broken past 70 in any of the post-Fergie seasons despite badly needing to in order to secure Top 4.
Had we been in it I reckon we would have been looking at high 80s, which is usually a league-winning tally.
Not content or a conformist view, there's still work to do and I get as frustrated as everyone else seeing how laboured our games are, but anyone denying our progress has his head buried in the sand.
Last thing you want is to change managers and start afresh all over again. It's completely mental.
We have not broken past 70 in any of the post-Fergie seasons despite badly needing to in order to secure Top 4.
Had we been in it I reckon we would have been looking at high 80s, which is usually a league-winning tally.
Not content or a conformist view, there's still work to do and I get as frustrated as everyone else seeing how laboured our games are, but anyone denying our progress has his head buried in the sand.
Last thing you want is to change managers and start afresh all over again. It's completely mental.
The evidence is that Jose has upgraded us in every single position he's attempted to. Bailly is better than any CB who was at the club and if the defence needs replaced it'll be because the dross like Blind/Darmian/Shaw all get moved on and none of that is due to Mourinho.
Matic was a superb signing for 40m, he's easily worth more and at a fantastic age for instant success. So what if he's not in his peak in 2 years the club has a revenue of almost 600m it can easily buy another CM just like the majority of top clubs do.
I see the Sanchez narrative is similar to Matic, fans demand instant success but then when Jose buys ready made world class player who can deliver it he get's criticised for that too. Incredible.
Pogba was the best midfielder we could have signed at the time and again well worth the money at £85m. There wasn't a single United fan who was against us getting him.
£300m in this market isn't enough to rebuild an entire squad. Real Madrid paid less for Bale/Benzema/Ronaldo than Neymar cost. How much do you think it's going to cost Madrid to replace that front 3? The rumours are Salah/Kane and apparently Neymar wants back to Spain, do you think they'd get even remotely close to that with 300m?
Some teams invested heavily in world class talent when world class talent was available for much lower prices, Man City got Aguero/Silva/Yaya/Kompany for less than £100m, how much do you think a 23 year old Aguero costs today?
Pep bought a lot of players but sold a lot more, I don't know why people make it out like he's done something wrong or very outrageous.If anything I think we were much more in need of such ruthless clearout. We are so casual in our transfer dealings. We seem to just enjoy keeping players on the bench and paying them wages, Rojo, Darmian, Blind, Shaw, Jose favorite Fellaini and yes even Carrick. I won't be suprised if we still keep all of them next season then when we're predictably playing shite next season the Jose fanboys will go 'how's Jose supposed to work with these shite players? He's a genius for even being in 3rd position with this shower'... Its his 3rd fecking season.
For a start Jose doesn't even start Bailly ahead of Jones and Smalling.
Regarding Sanchez, I wonder if everyone keeps calling him world class will he not have to actually demonstrate it on the pitch?
Lots of people were wrong about Pogba.....only one person was paid to get the signing right.
With the exception of City we have hugely outspent our competition in the PL. Have we spent it well and built a team that will continue to improve over the next few years??
Not for me. Maybe 400 million will do the trick?
I simplified it, it’s obvious a bit more complex than that. There needs to be a continued evolution next year. One example is, Sevilla shouldnt happen again. That’s the main mark against Jose this season, one I feel he is most culpable for. A lot of the other things people bring up, is more complex than that.
Build up in deeper areas need to be better. Counters need to be sharper. If he brings in players for the deeper areas there isn’t an excuse for it not be. For this season, there clearly is a reason beyond Jose’s coaching. Some people dont agree with that for example, and want him sacked regardless.
When Bailly is fit he's first choice. Jones/Smalling only start when he's injured or coming back from an injury, I've never heard a United fan seriously argue that Bailly isn't an upgrade on Jones/Smalling.
Are you disputing that he's world class? His last few performances in big games have been excellent I.E City away/Spurs at Wembley etc I know the modern fans consider every player only as good as his last performance but this is just incredibly fickle.
Pogba was an excellent signing for the money. if we sold him tomorrow we'd probably make a profit.
With the exception of City we're ahead of everyone else and yes I fully expect Bailly/Pogba/Lukaku/ to improve over the next few years.
PSG are not selling Neymar for less than they bought him, at a minimum it would be 200m. How much is Salah worth in this market when Coutninho goes for 130m? Would Liverpool even consider less, I doubt it. Same goesfor Kane, at 24 Spurs have a Striker who can push them for champions league spots for the next 6/7 years and in a league where you get 120m minimum why would you consider letting him leave for less than 150? In fact I'd wager if Kane made no effort to actively pursue a move then Levy wouldn't even accept 150m.
This is the reality of the market with the new premier league TV money, elite players will cost you 100m+ easily. So trying to rebuild an entire squad for 300m isn't easy. Some sides invested massively before the boom and are reaping the benefits, Madrid got Modric/Kroos for 60m total and a front 3 cheaper than Neymar. It's not because they have a transfer policy that's difficult to understand/replicate, they simply go out and spend market price on the best possible players. Modric was seen as expensive at 40m and half the posters here wanted us to forget about him and sign Strootman/De Rossi. What was seen as huge spending 5 years ago looks tame today.
Bailly of last season was first choice, with injuries and poor form he has not been this year. You can argue potential but on performances this year he hasn't been an upgrade.
I am not disputing Sanchez past performances , just that this year for Arsenal and even more so for us he has been a long way from the world class player of previous seasons. A good game against Spurs doesn't negate that.
I wouldn't use Pogba and excellent in the same sentence, he has been overall disappointing in his two seasons but as you say we should get our money back although many clubs will think long and hard about that.
I agree with your point that now that 100 million wont go far this season so it is disappointing that we haven't spent better over the last 2 seasons.
It really wasn't mate. We were ruthless, absolutely, but the football was often aimless and we relied on our power to grind teams down.
West Ham was a great performance but apart from that, can you name one game in which we really turned it on?
I just wish one Mourinhista could tell us a) what style of play Mourinho is working towards and b) how he can build a team to overhaul City next year.
At the moment all I'm saying is:
Personally, I think he was a great manager in the naughties but football has moved on and he doesn't seem to have adapted at all. He's organised our defence really well but he hasn't got the organisational or man-management skills to take us further. His approach is only justified if we're likely to win the PL/CL under him, and I just don't see us doing that.
At the moment all I'm saying is:
- childish name-calling
- 'Pep has spent more than us'
- 'Get behind the manager'
- 'Mourinho's won loads of trophies'
- 'if it wasn't for City's freak season...'
Personally, I think he was a great manager in the naughties but football has moved on and he doesn't seem to have adapted at all. He's organised our defence really well but he hasn't got the organisational or man-management skills to take us further. His approach is only justified if we're likely to win the PL/CL under him, and I just don't see us doing that.
The style is pretty clear by now. We've seen it for 2 years. Don't expect it to change much.
We will use a mix of 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and occasionally 3 at the back when facing opponents who use that system.
Mourinho is hoping we will be more efficient both in defence and in attack.
If he is lucky, City will drop points next season, perhaps finish low 90s and United might get lucky, cut out the ridiculous defensive errors, turn up more often for away matches against lower half PL sides, sneak the title or at least compete for the title.
This season Lukaku gifted City the win at Old Trafford. Lindelof and Mata handed Huddersfield 2 goals. Jones' own goal against Spurs. Our inept play after Leicester had a man sent off cost us 2 points. Team failed to take the West Brom home match seriously. Brighton defeat no doubt blamed on Rashford and Martial. Newcastle defeat on Pogba.
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I mean...he's taken us from 5th to 2nd and has gotten us by far our best points total since 12/13. I agree with a lot of your criticisms of him re the first paragraph and have been frustrated by a lot of his choices and approaches this season but he's objectively improved us while manager.
There are a few things I believe which lead me to believe Jose deserves another year:
1. I think he had a massive job on his hands to improve the squad in the transfer market at a time when prices exploded beyond previous highs.
2. Making this job more difficult is we had recruited players under LvG and Moyes who did nothing to elevate our level on the pitch but couldn't just be binned off in one go. I expect some of the remaining players who he doesn't rate like Darmian and Blind to be sold this summer.
3. Yes, he has spent a load of money, but there is a budget he is working under. The club wouldn't fund the move for Perisic last summer, so it's not a limitless pool of cash he has at his disposal. This leads me to believe he's had to prioritize certain areas of the squad over others as he reconstructs the team.
4. He has added addressed ST, CM and CB in the market, all areas which needed to be improved dramatically when he took over. CB, admittedly is still a bit of a question mark though I rate Bailly highly and think Lindelof will be much better next season. This summer is the final step in rebuilding the squad with FB additions to be made and the final touches put on reinforcing in midfield.
Even with all of this I'm starting to believe he may not be able to get us over the hump to elevate us to genuine contenders in the league or in Europe, but I do think he's progressed us in the right direction in his first 2 seasons. If no progress is made in our playing style and cohesiveness next season then he should go.
1. I think he had a massive job on his hands to improve the squad in the transfer market at a time when prices exploded beyond previous highs.
2. Making this job more difficult is we had recruited players under LvG and Moyes who did nothing to elevate our level on the pitch but couldn't just be binned off in one go. I expect some of the remaining players who he doesn't rate like Darmian and Blind to be sold this summer.
3. Yes, he has spent a load of money, but there is a budget he is working under. The club wouldn't fund the move for Perisic last summer, so it's not a limitless pool of cash he has at his disposal. This leads me to believe he's had to prioritize certain areas of the squad over others as he reconstructs the team.
4. He has added addressed ST, CM and CB in the market, all areas which needed to be improved dramatically when he took over. CB, admittedly is still a bit of a question mark though I rate Bailly highly and think Lindelof will be much better next season. This summer is the final step in rebuilding the squad with FB additions to be made and the final touches put on reinforcing in midfield.
Even with all of this I'm starting to believe he may not be able to get us over the hump to elevate us to genuine contenders in the league or in Europe, but I do think he's progressed us in the right direction in his first 2 seasons. If no progress is made in our playing style and cohesiveness next season then he should go.
You just named a few formations there, that's nothing to do with our style of play.
And hoping we are more efficient in attack? How about instead of hoping, he coaches us to attack against a deep defence?
That's a fair post, making some good points.
I mean I don’t see what that has to do with what I wrote in response to what you wrote, but steadied the ship is a weird choice of words when in his 1st season he was 6th and the season before we were 5th due to goal difference. It’s not like we were on a massive slide, if anything LVG was the one who stopped the slide and built the base of a team and cleared out a lot of old hats.
I think a better way to put it was Jose tore down one version of the ship and built his own version of a ship.
Anyway he still has a massive way to go and rightly so the fan base is very split, with both sides a bit hysterical at times. Certainly deserves next year but even if he was to win the league but it’s still this dire i’d Imagine you’ll still see voices of displeasure.
The whole point of Mourinho is that he wins things fast. If he doesn't do that why stick with someone who brings us boring football?
The reality is, Guardiola has been able to buy Bernardo, Danilo and Laporte as very expensive spare parts, but they’d be starters at every other club in the league, United included. That’s the biggest difference; Jose’s compromising, Pep has been given everything he’s asked for.
Perisic would have facilitated swifter counter attacks this season, but wasn’t attained; the transitional play has been laboured as a result. He clearly doesn’t want Shaw, Martial and perhaps even Pogba, so you either sanction their sale and allow him to replace them with his own players, or sack him.
Guardiola had a stronger squad last season than Jose does this, and finished 3rd.
Perisic would have facilitated swifter counter attacks this season, but wasn’t attained; the transitional play has been laboured as a result. He clearly doesn’t want Shaw, Martial and perhaps even Pogba, so you either sanction their sale and allow him to replace them with his own players, or sack him.
Guardiola had a stronger squad last season than Jose does this, and finished 3rd.
Im not sure we can say Mourinho didn’t want Pogba. I do think this United team is closer to City’s team last year though.
If he puts the FA Cup in the cabinet, that’s 3 trophies in 2 seasons, and second only to a team that’s been unprecedentedly backed by a dubious oil state - he’s winning ‘things’ fast.
I wouldn’t suspect he’d have been his ideal acquisition, but even if he did want him initially, his attitude and tactical neglect over the past 2 seasons have surely made Jose evaluate giving up on him and signing less erratic, more reliable players.
Yes but we cannot absolve Mourinho of blame if that is the case, because it’s still his signing. I do think Pogba needs to focus and concentrate more though. Brighton and Newcastle performances should not be happening at all.
This is a win win argument.
If Pep didn't replace most of his players then you can say he inherited better team.
If Pep signed so many players then you guys say he signed so many players so he is winning the league.
He played Otamendi, Kompany, Delph, Fernandinho, Silva, KdB, Steling, Aguero regularly. That's 8 players out of 11.
Same Jose who wanted to buy him when he was at Chelsea too? This is the problem with Jose fans, everything is someone else's mistake, never Jose's.
Thats not reality. That's your narrative.
I am not disputing that Jose wanted Pogba.
Has he only played 11 players regularly? I was under the impression it was closer to 16 or 17.
Thats the general starting 11 who made most appearances. Maybe wrong on Kompany as Stones might have played more. Both were injured a lot so not sure on that one. But when both were fit Kompany always played.
Apologies. Read it as "I'm sure"
I am not sure Jose would want those 3 players. For Jose, Bernardo is too weak, Danilo too attack minded and Laporte takes unncessary risks that Jose does not want.
This case of Perisic is curious. Jose identified a player who would have somehow magically improved us, but dint have any back up plans . Its quite surprising that there is just this one player in the whole world who could do what Perisic could! To not have back up to Perisic, in my books, is laziness.
Pep had stronger squad last season (and about half the time to make changes) than Jose does this season. I think you will be saying same thing after many years too -Pep had better squad in 2016 than Jose does in 2020.
And also it's Ivan fecking Perisic, not exactly Cristiano Ronaldo. This is why I'm not fully on board with the idea that whatever happens, Mourinho's successor will start in a better position than he did. He might be looking at a clearout of Mourinho's lieutenants especially if he has another summer of chasing functional players like Perisic and manages to convince Fellaini to stay.
Outdated manager
Dinosaur
Bet he wont finish 2nd
He'll destroy us
He'll leave us in a mess
Past it manager
At least we had facts to back us up. The mourinho haters only has vitriols
Let's stop blaming manager and start blaming players instead, we had produce such lackluster performance under different manager, even during SAF last season our performance wasn't that good , we wouldn't be able to win the league if RVP didn't join us and had his best season in his career. It wasn't Mourinho fault that Rashford had a brain fart to not square it to Martial if that went in the result could be very different and there won't be any negativity here for the last few pages.
That's not why we acquired him. We acquired him to win the PL title and to be in the hunt for the CL title. We put up with his boring football for hope of that. If he doesn't improve next season then what's the point of sticking with him? What evidence would there be of him getting us to that level of football if next season is like this one? That's what I was originally replying to.
I bet a lot of us aren't even asking for instant success. We just want to compete for the biggest titles. A lot of us realized how bad it had gotten and thus settled for someone like Mou who could bring back glory, at the expense of good football. If Mou doesn't achieve that goal, then why on earth would any fan want to stick with boring football? Isn't that why you're supporting Mou?
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