Too many opposition fans pretending to be United fans. Pathetic.
To be fair there's too many United fans pretending to be United fans too
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
- Thread starter Suedesi
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To be fair there's too many United fans pretending to be United fans too
For all the knee jerk reactionaries calling for Jose’s head, I have one question.
So where do we go from here?
At the end of the day, he has stabilised the club after two managers that absolutely ruined us and the squad.
He won two trophies in his 1st season (including one we had never won before) and got us to the knockout stage of the champions league in this season.
We are firmly in second behind a ridiculous fantasy FM club and manager who have no limits on spending.
I see progress and at least give him next season.
Otherwise, what is your serious suggestion?
So where do we go from here?
At the end of the day, he has stabilised the club after two managers that absolutely ruined us and the squad.
He won two trophies in his 1st season (including one we had never won before) and got us to the knockout stage of the champions league in this season.
We are firmly in second behind a ridiculous fantasy FM club and manager who have no limits on spending.
I see progress and at least give him next season.
Otherwise, what is your serious suggestion?
No. One manager ruined us.
The next failed to take us forward using his methods and was rightly sacked. Van Gaal didn't 'ruin' anything.
Been thinking about this comment this morning. For the record I am not at the point of wanting Mourinho gone yet. But that is mainly because I dont know who else we would get in who would do a better job. I am not feeling particularly optimistic Mourinho is going to win anything better than he has already won for us while he is here (I think we can win the FA Cup but I think the Europa Cup is a better trophy to win. Debatable - but that's a different conversation.) But I dont see anyone else with a better chance of closing the gap with City. So maybe a manager who can keep us near the top while we bide our time is the best we can do for now.
But you make an interesting point. We have Martial, Pogba and Sanchez right now. I dont want to give up hope Mourinho can get the best out of these players, it feels way too early in Sanchez's case especially. But it is hard to find the optimism at the moment. I dont want Mourinho to stick around, going through the motions, us treading water and waiting for City's cycle to come to an end, or Guardiola to leave or whatever, and for our best players to have moved on by the time a new manager comes in and takes us in a different direction. I dont want Martial to be the next Salah.
The problem i have with Mourinhio is that he often chooses to keep games tight and hope they sneak a win or at the very worst not to lose the game.
There are fine margins with this approach in big games and feels like a coin flip if we win or lose these games.
We were great against Liverpool in the first half and then he decides to revert to type and we end up hanging on for the win, it would not have surprised anyone if Liverpool had scored a late equaliser.
Last night was just another example of Jose relying on small margins to get through but this time Sevilla got the coin flip.
I could see us scoring last night around the 70 minute mark and then hanging on for dear life for the last 20 minutes praying they did not get that away goal but as it happens Sevilla gave us what we deserved and that was nothing.
We cannot keep using these fine margins approach in these games and then listen to Jose complain about luck not going our way. He keeps putting himself in these spots and expects to come out on top all the time. Well the law of averages do not agree.
We all remember the Celta Vigo game in the Europa League semi final when yet again Jose decided to defend a 1-0 lead from the first leg at Old Trafford ( why on earth would he do that? ) and we scrapped through thanks to John Guidetti missing a absolute sitter with the last kick of the match.
Mourinho got lucky again that night with his negative approach, we could easily have been knocked out there and not even been in the Champions League this season.
At some point ( very soon ) Jose needs to either change this approach or be shown the door imo.
There are fine margins with this approach in big games and feels like a coin flip if we win or lose these games.
We were great against Liverpool in the first half and then he decides to revert to type and we end up hanging on for the win, it would not have surprised anyone if Liverpool had scored a late equaliser.
Last night was just another example of Jose relying on small margins to get through but this time Sevilla got the coin flip.
I could see us scoring last night around the 70 minute mark and then hanging on for dear life for the last 20 minutes praying they did not get that away goal but as it happens Sevilla gave us what we deserved and that was nothing.
We cannot keep using these fine margins approach in these games and then listen to Jose complain about luck not going our way. He keeps putting himself in these spots and expects to come out on top all the time. Well the law of averages do not agree.
We all remember the Celta Vigo game in the Europa League semi final when yet again Jose decided to defend a 1-0 lead from the first leg at Old Trafford ( why on earth would he do that? ) and we scrapped through thanks to John Guidetti missing a absolute sitter with the last kick of the match.
Mourinho got lucky again that night with his negative approach, we could easily have been knocked out there and not even been in the Champions League this season.
At some point ( very soon ) Jose needs to either change this approach or be shown the door imo.
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How can you say Van Gaal didn’t ruin us? He made the team forget how to attack and we were lucky to have more than a couple of shots per game.
It’s the dawning realisation among Utd fans that Mourinho’s football is dreadful to watch and while he’s at the club it’s unlikely to get any better.
I’ve said it before but the qualities of our rivals hasn’t helped. City, Liverpool and Spurs play some scintillating football, I look over at them with envy. I wish we were as exciting to watch.
And yeah you can point to the league table and say we’re ahead of two of them, but only just. Liverpool fans watching their team smash Porto 5-0 at their place, when we can barely even muster a decent shot in 3 hours of football against Seville. I’m angry about it.
Moyes finished 7th with the previous years PL champions and embarassed us as a club.
Van Gaal got back into the top four and then we regressed back to 5th (on goal difference). Along the way we had some enjoyable big game matches and moments (e.g. Juanfield etc). He left after winning the FA Cup. He had to go - it wasn't going well enough and he only had one more year to run.
If you think the two are anywhere near comparable you need help.
I just don't understand why we're playing the way we are, i don't remember his first Chelsea team playing like this, even in his 2nd stint it wasn't this bad surely.
I really think we need to take a risk with the next manager, Moyes, LVG and Jose all too safe/negative. We need a manager that matches the philosophy of the club, Woodward should start testing the waters with Tuchel.
I really think we need to take a risk with the next manager, Moyes, LVG and Jose all too safe/negative. We need a manager that matches the philosophy of the club, Woodward should start testing the waters with Tuchel.
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He didn't ruin us but just signed a load of dross that we had to waste time getting rid of and bringing in suitable replacements, and the clearout isn't even complete yet. There comes a point where we can't keep blaming previous managers for everything. I'm a José fan but it wasn't Van Gaal's philosophy that lost us the game yesterday.
Baffled by his reluctance to change things when it became apparent the setup wasn't right against Sevilla. It was painfully obvious after 20 minutes that Fellaini needed hooking and Rashford switching to the left.
He's one of the most proactive managers around and yet he stood on the touchline looking nonplussed - completely out of character for him.
He's one of the most proactive managers around and yet he stood on the touchline looking nonplussed - completely out of character for him.
I don't think the I want mourinho gone attitude is knee jerk. This is what most utd fans would have demanded had we lost to either Chelsea or Liverpool. The problem isn't the result the problem is the football. After those early 4-0's how many games can any utd fan watch and say that it was good watchable football, rarely any.
If we had won after performing dreadfully much like we did against Chelsea or Crystal palace it would have papered over the cracks, we might have been humbled by an actual good team in quarters and the pitch forks would be out then.
Frankly mourinho's football is outdated worst of all he can't seem to even get his philosophies implemented properly, we play defensive football but it still takes ddg to save us, for a team of so many 6ft+ guys we are hilariously bad at attacking or defending set pieces. Teams walk through our mf most of the times like it doesn't exist, we routinely allow free headers and shots from well inside penalty area.
He has signed good players, players who an actual attacking coach can mould into a good team and cohesive attack, it is time we let go of him as much like LVG he really can't help us take any further
Get Pochettino or Jardim, i am not a fan of pochettino, got banned for calling him a bottler. But he can get his team playing good football, our attack would thrive under him and unlike klopp he can actually organise a defense.
You are missing the point. The problem with the recruitment is the lack of an overarching strategy. Every time you hire a coach with a philosophy that is antithetical to the approach of his predecessor, you end up with a complete retraining of the players, and a huge turnover of playing staff. Which is both unnecessarily expensive and places the club into a perpetual state of transition. What it indicates is a clear lack of a plan. For example, by saying that your strategy is to only hire coaches that play some variant of high tempo attacking football, gives much more continuity to the playing staff, and results in much lower turnover of players. But by saying one minute we are an old fashioned direct 4-4-2 team, to the next we are a patient possession orientated team, to the next we are a defensive counter attacking team - all in the space of 4 years - is hugely confusing and counter productive to everyone at the club. And no doubt once Mourinho goes, we'll lurch to another extreme. Perhaps an excessively attacking coach.
There has to be a management strategy of football operations which governs the appointment of the first team manager, which not only curates the development of the squad, but also fortifies the identity of the football club and brand. Right now we are spunking cash like a drunken sailor in a brothel, but with little chance of ever actually performing when it matters. Our entire strategy has been to do something different to the manager before, rather than attempting to build anything long term. Van Gaal cycled pretty much the entire fecking squad, and filled it with players which weren't suited to the type of system Mourinho wants to employ. And if we hire a coach contrarian to Jose, then the same problem will occur once again.
It is piss poor. Any one who appreciates the importance of strategic intent in establishing competitive advantage can see that.
I'm in full agreement with Ronay on that, and have felt that for a while. That Inter performance is his football nirvana. He not only proved all his doubter wrong, but he stuck it to Pep and Barca all on the same night.
Its almost like everything he does in big games and says to the press is to recreate that moment.
Uhm, you've jumped to early conclusions. People gave him credit when we won recently. You've also missed the jest of my post. Most don't want him fired because of 3rd party concerns, not because they want HIM at the helm. Basically, some think he's a lesser evil.
Pretty much sums up my feeling, there are so many names who are being thrown about how they'd be perfect fit for the club but again people are under-estimating the size of job and expectations. New hipster manager may quench the thirst for attacking football for many but if he were to balls up a CL spot they'd be asking for the head again.
I feel having him for another season or two is okay provided we keep making improvements even if marginal, he's good in the transfer market meaning the next manager after him will have an extremely solid base to build upon.
I can see his point. Van Gaal in his 2nd season did throw our attacking style back to the pre historic age. There were games when we were lucky to get 2 shots on target. This is demonstrated by the very low GD that season, conceding a lot and not scoring many. That's no excuse for Jose though, he's had almost 2 seasons now and added Lukaku, Pogba, Sanchez to the pot.
Ultimately have slept on it, my opinion is that we prepared and focused on the Liverpool game. This game was an after thought, we assumed we'd turn up and win with little preparation and could use it as a way to rotate the squad a little bit using an unfit Fellaini in midfield for example. This could be seen clearly during the game, players unfocused and the attitude terrible. You could see the panic in the players as soon as we conceded when they realised they'd messed up. Looks like over confidence and arrogance yesterday. That's on the players and the staff, both equally guilty but buck has to stop at Jose.
Spot on! The players played like it was a training session. Then they were 2-0 down with 15 minutes to go and started playing with some urgency.
Lukaku was very good as a target man against Liverpool, so what does he do...replace an in form McTominay for Fellaini so he can play long balls to him!
I get what you mean. Someone like Poch may have a season like last year where they get 85+ points and look like challenging, perhaps even run City close for one season but the reality is he can also take us backwards with naivety. Jose WILL keep us 2nd-3rd most seasons due to his experience and that will stabilise us at the top for a few years. It is also unfair to be replacing someone who is 2nd in the league. I do not see how Jose will bridge the gap though as I feel his style leaves us open to dropping too many points as we are too reactive which in many ways can be more risky. A boxer who fights cagily must have pinpoint counter striking and watertight defence or he finds himself behind on points or knocked out. We have neither. I can only see it working if we had his 1st Chelsea team as they didn't conceed chances/goals and had goals from all over the pitch
I’ve no idea how people can say stuff like that with so much certainty.
Even then, the best defence of him is there is nobody else that would be ‘available’? Not good enough.
I agree about the risk. But Tuchel is just as unstable as LVG.
Poch is the obvious pick.
I'd also be happy with Luis Enrique, Lowe, Ranieri. Hell, I'd take Redknapp if he'll bring a bit of fire back into the squad.
Jose has done well at stabilising the club. I'm confident we'll always be in the champions league with him. But he's not going to take us forward.
i just can't get my head around the approach to this tie. At no point across either of the 2 legs were we in a position of progressing to the next round and yet at no point do we try to score goals, its just bizarre, was he hoping Sevilla would beat themselves? Not only did Sevilla knock us out but they must be pinching themselves at how easy the whole tie was for them. Baffling stuff from Mou
I didn't watch his previous sides week-in-week-out like i do united but i really don't remember any of them being this negative, perhaps chelsea/madrid/inter fans can enlighten us? i seem to remember his first chelsea in particular being monsters who dominated the shit out of everyone all over the pitch. we're so meek it's infuriating.
I didn't watch his previous sides week-in-week-out like i do united but i really don't remember any of them being this negative, perhaps chelsea/madrid/inter fans can enlighten us? i seem to remember his first chelsea in particular being monsters who dominated the shit out of everyone all over the pitch. we're so meek it's infuriating.
Playing for penalty shoot-out.
No, stop with this shit. Roughly two-thirds of teams progress after a 0-0 draw away from home. I posted sources for this before, I cannot be arsed now but you can google it.
We did not lose this tie in Seville; we did it by being absolute cowards at home where all we needed to do was win.
I really like the work Tuchel did in his last season at BVB, in the CL they got to the quarter finals and in the group stages Real Madrid couldn't beat them over two legs. He set the team up to go toe to toe with them and that's what the team did they played some great stuff. He also managed to win the DFB-Pokal cup, hes also really good with developing young players.
Poch would be good as hes already familiar with the PL and he has spurs playing some really good organised football. But doing business with Levy is no joke, remember when the FA wanted Redknapp for the England job and Levy priced them out?
Why did we get such a cowardly manager?
I hate that. There is an absolute abundance of quality managers to choose from yet people still come out with that nonsense. Then there's always the option of taking a chance on an ex-player. People love to shoot that down as crazy, but it's not like going for experience and pedigree has worked for us thus far.
He had the best CV of anyone available. He's still a top 5 manager in the world, probably. Maybe higher, but I think he should go back to a club where he can be as defensive as he wants.
So let's pull some stats for the craic:
In his last season Van Gaal averaged 5.5 shots-on-target/match in the PL. Mourinho so far this season for comparison, it's 7.5/match.
Chances created Van Gaal (again his last season - his worst) averages ~8 chances a match in the PL. Mourinho averages ~10. Those stats could easily change obviously, Mourinho still has 8 matches to play which could make those better or worse.
So yeah, there's some improvement. However, I'm not really seeing the argument that Van Gaal destroyed us and Mourinho deserves some kind of by-ball due to the previous management. He's been here for nearly two full seasons and this season specifically, United have created less chances per game than the rest of their top six rivals (dead last). Also last for both total shots and shots on target.
I mean it kind of sums up things given we're still managing to sit in 2nd place, 5 points clear of Liverpool. We're doing that while really not playing good, football that justifies the money spent and it feeds into the thinking that another manager might get more out of this team and challenge City no matter how relentless they are.
Wonder what SMB would have made of that shit show against Seville.
Sack him. Today. Kicker‘s headline pretty much read „Mourinho is a dinosaur“ today and they are right. He‘s past it, and on top of it he sucks as a man manager and is an asshole in general. I love the fact that I was hated so much when I said that he was the wrong appointment back in the day, but now I‘m absolutely proven right.
Curious mate, can you elaborate why Jose at United is making you throw in the towel on City?
Nailed him
To be fair it's pretty boring when you have zero competition - maybe that's it.
He's showing he ain't a glory hunter if he shifted allegiances from City to United currently. Proper respect.
He's been here for 2 seasons now and we have no discernible way of playing. Some of the football (most of?) is absolutely horrid to watch. That's mostly to do with his overly cautious, negative mindset that just seems so innate to the man. Of course there has been one off games where we've had some great results, but that will happen. Sometimes those tactics will work in one or two games, but i'm not sure it's something that's conducive to success in the long run and on a consistent basis; not the success we aspire to, anyway.
Ironically i thought Jose and the tactics that he employs would suit us well in the Champions League...yeah, not so much. Again, he's been here for 2 seasons and he has no idea what his best team is, or which players go where to get the best out of them. He's failed to get the best out of his star player (Pogba), and while the player himself should no be absolved of all blame, the manager should take a huge amount of criticism for his inability to get him playing to the required level.
And for all this criticism, the most infuriating thing of all is his approach to games. He is so fecking negative. Last nights performance was one of the meekest i have ever seen. We were so subservient to what is an average team. They leak goals for fun in La Liga and while they may be 5th, i think they're as close to 14th as they are to 4th. We handed them a path to the quarter finals without any pushback whatsoever. We limped to a defeat, at Old Trafford, in our biggest game of the season with absolutely no fight. This wasn't just last nights fixture that was the problem, but the away fixture a few weeks ago, too. I think we had something like 4 shots on target in 180 minutes of football. That's bad. Real bad. And Jose was the architect of it.
Ironically i thought Jose and the tactics that he employs would suit us well in the Champions League...yeah, not so much. Again, he's been here for 2 seasons and he has no idea what his best team is, or which players go where to get the best out of them. He's failed to get the best out of his star player (Pogba), and while the player himself should no be absolved of all blame, the manager should take a huge amount of criticism for his inability to get him playing to the required level.
And for all this criticism, the most infuriating thing of all is his approach to games. He is so fecking negative. Last nights performance was one of the meekest i have ever seen. We were so subservient to what is an average team. They leak goals for fun in La Liga and while they may be 5th, i think they're as close to 14th as they are to 4th. We handed them a path to the quarter finals without any pushback whatsoever. We limped to a defeat, at Old Trafford, in our biggest game of the season with absolutely no fight. This wasn't just last nights fixture that was the problem, but the away fixture a few weeks ago, too. I think we had something like 4 shots on target in 180 minutes of football. That's bad. Real bad. And Jose was the architect of it.
He's lost the plot. We weren't always majestic toward the end of SAF's time here (trying to draw comparisons to this knockout tie I remembered a smash and grab at Valencia where Chicharito scored a late goal to give us the vital away goal, in particular), but we certainly never sat back and defended like cowards in front of our home fans. And we certainly tried to play the right way, even if we didn't have the personnel to do so. We sure as heck don't pass the eye test, and we don't even pass the statistics test: Based on expected goals, we should have 12 fewer points, meanwhile DDG's save percentage (83.7) is the highest this decade by almost five points.
Put the football on the ground, keep hold of it more and play to our strengths. Purchasing Sanchez has ruined the balance of the team and now he feels obliged to play him although he isn't the best option. Mctominay and Matic have proved to be out best CM pairing, we need to play them so we arent exposing ourselves everytime we are not on the ball. Our top four should consist of Mata, Pogba and Lukaku along with Martial/Rashford on the left. Sanchez can play a part but at the moment he is not providing anything substantial and is not a benefit to the team. Young has held his own but he and Valencia have no game awareness, their mindless bombing up the pitch yesterday was attrocious and left us in all sorts of problems and they need to be addressed this summer.
Mourinho is always too careful and more content with keepin it safe. He would rather not get beat by the opposition and plays to stifle them rather than for us to dominate. All the other teams around us are happy to go out on their sword and thats why they for the most part are beating teams who they should be beating and if they lose they are a threat from start to finish. I dont think he can change, he will never give us performances to sing about. We will always be one defeat away from his tactics being criticised and thats what is unacceptable for the fans. Its never great when we're winning and always awful when we lose. That balance needs to shift and we need to have a brand of football we can be positive about. The way we have been knocked out of the cup competitions this season should be a major worry to all fans.
Mourinho is always too careful and more content with keepin it safe. He would rather not get beat by the opposition and plays to stifle them rather than for us to dominate. All the other teams around us are happy to go out on their sword and thats why they for the most part are beating teams who they should be beating and if they lose they are a threat from start to finish. I dont think he can change, he will never give us performances to sing about. We will always be one defeat away from his tactics being criticised and thats what is unacceptable for the fans. Its never great when we're winning and always awful when we lose. That balance needs to shift and we need to have a brand of football we can be positive about. The way we have been knocked out of the cup competitions this season should be a major worry to all fans.
In general I think he's doing an extremely good job. But, I genuinely have no idea what he was even going for in this tie. Saying we were trying to steal an away goal on the counter would be an extremely optimistic way of putting what we did in Sevilla. And then after leaving Sevilla at 0-0 he was too scared to let them score an away goal so we again set up to not let them score. We didn't bother actively trying to win the game until 170 of the 180 minutes had already happened, and even then it was only because we went down a goal. It genuinely seemed like he was happy to go in to extra time at 0-0. Why? I truly just don't understand what he was even trying to accomplish.
All problems lies with mourinho. Sanchez was a great player at Arsenal why suddenly played badly at United? (Great player doesn’t goes sh*t in a season) similar to progba...(rumours on progba and Sanchez doesn’t gets well probably true)
We r playing in Old Trafford ffs. Mourinho need to mans up or he goes.
We r playing in Old Trafford ffs. Mourinho need to mans up or he goes.
It seems to me that he is too afraid of losing to play real football. And it has bitten him in the ass many times during his tenure at Man Utd and before in Chelsea. I smell sacking next season, but hopefully I am wrong and he can make Utd one of the best again.
So sad for the lackluster performance against Sevilla.
So sad for the lackluster performance against Sevilla.
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