I can be behind that and tentativeness summarize my feelings, I want to believe in him but I'm not sure if I should.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
- Thread starter Suedesi
- Start date
- Status
I can be behind that and tentativeness summarize my feelings, I want to believe in him but I'm not sure if I should.
Mourinho ‘dealt’ with van Gaal’s mess by taking over a team that had finished 4th and 5th in the previous seasons, spent a fortune on top of it, and finished 6th. Brilliant.
And this season can still go tits up very easily. It’s arguably been very underwhelming already.
And this season can still go tits up very easily. It’s arguably been very underwhelming already.
He dealt with it by having us in 2nd right now and also winning 2 trophies. He has also improved the squad and slowly transitioning players van Gaal signed like Darmian and Blind out. Stop trying to downplay everything, it's tiring. The negativity is toxic.
Sure, Mourinho took over teams on or near the top of their game and it was his job to continue and enhance those positions. Whereas Ferguson built on the back of his own success Mourinho has built further on the back of that of others. Overhauling Guardiola's Barcelona was a big deal, taking Inter to the quadruple (edit: actually treble) and Chelsea to their first championship for 50 years are all creditable achievements but I definitely accept your point.
He did well initially (and without vast resources) when he returned to Chelsea but I'd say the biggest challenge he's faced is his current one. He definitely has oodles more dosh than Ferguson had and his achievement if he takes Utd back in no way approaches Ferguson's own. He's competing against teams that themselves have more money but definitely has it far easier than ferguson did. I only alluded to the late eighties because, however obliquely, it still seemed to me to pertain more to the current situation of getting back to the top than comparisons to an already dominant Utd looking to maintain position.
Van Gaal won a more prestigious trophy than Mourinho, so what? And we didn’t hire Mourinho to finish second, we hired him to challenge for the league, which he has failed at twice now.
Yeah, he’s managed to improve the quality of the squad by spending a fortune, well done.
I don’t care what you view as toxic. Get used to the fact that not everyone loves Mourinho as much as you.
That's because you only mentioned the things Mourinho did badly. You forgot to include some:
1. Winning the Europa League and the League Cup
2. Attracted world class players and arguably did better than van Gaal in the terms of transfers
3. We're 2nd now and still in FA cup and Champions League
4. Mancity is having an exceptional season otherwise We could be in the first position
5. We're no longer a laughing stock, We're hated once again. It feels more like Manchester United nowadays than the a mid table club left by David Moyes
That's some positives. The negatives :
1. Spends load of money (but tbf, every managers do it these days) and the results dont fully show it
2. Negative tactics
3. Throwing players under the bus sometimes, can affect some of the players badly
It's all about context. For me He does an alright job, not brilliant, not bad, could have done better in the terms of results but I'll save my final judgement for his third season.
Van Gaal didn’t spend a lot of money? Prices have not inflated since? Was half of what Jose spent not on 2 players, Pogba and Lukaku? We needed top quality because the man before did not add that. Van Gaal’s recruitment and 2 years was fecking shocking and sent us backwards.
Van Gaal won a FA Cup but we were heading nowhere. If we had Mourinho in after Moyes we would be so so much better off right now.
This isn’t about ‘loving’ Mourinho. Some of you are just toxic.
Let me tell you something, feck off with the personal insults, who do you think you are to go around and call people toxic?
That’s not an insult. The constant negativity is toxic.
Look, people will have a different perspective, in the last pages we all explained our positions, we did it in civil ways and you are the one going around and calling people toxic and rewriting their words because it doesn't match with your personal support of Mourinho. If you can't accept differing opinions don't comment on other people posts.
I can accept other people have different opinions. Constant negativity is still toxic.
I never said van Gaal didn't spend a lot of money. So what? Mourinho wanted 4 players each summer, and he got 7/8, including a world transfer record. And we've added Sanchez on top of that. He doesn't have any excuses there.
Maybe we would have been better off (that's not saying much), but much better? I'm far from convinced that's true. If Mourinho finishes 3rd and gets knocked out of the CL and FA cup (very plausible) he and LvG will have finished on the same average league position in their two seasons, and the only really big difference between them will have been that Mourinho managed to get CL qualification in both seasons.
Oh grow up precious. What's toxic is your bitching and whining every time someone doesn't agree with you about Mourinho. It's just like I said in that negativity thread: for a lot of people on here negativity is equated with criticizing Mourinho, and you're the worst offender on that front.
Last edited:
If a poster doesn't think Mourinho has done much better than LVG, do you suggest they thrown in a couple of posts saying he has to mix it up?
No? There are clearly posters who are overly negative about everything and try do downplay most things Mourinho does though. I accept that we need to be better away from home, on transitions, and on the counter. That doesn’t mean I have to be negative about everything.
I like him, I want him to succeed, I wanted him here since day 1 when SAF announced his retirement.
I think he's done well so far, but that's about it. Two trophies and CL qualification in season #1 is fine by me. However, for the money he's spent, I would expect a top 2 finish, a trophy and a CL performance to at least be proud of. If we bow out of the CL with a whimper playing negative football and end up in a top 4 dogfight that we lose, I won't consider his second season to be a success in the slightest.
He should be getting a bit more out of what he has.
I think he's done well so far, but that's about it. Two trophies and CL qualification in season #1 is fine by me. However, for the money he's spent, I would expect a top 2 finish, a trophy and a CL performance to at least be proud of. If we bow out of the CL with a whimper playing negative football and end up in a top 4 dogfight that we lose, I won't consider his second season to be a success in the slightest.
He should be getting a bit more out of what he has.
My latest post in this thread before this discussion:
How is that overly negative or unreasonable in any way? And even if some people in your opinion try to downplay everything Mourinho does, so what? He's not your boyfriend ffs.
Voted for the second option after the Chelsea match. Will stick to that. Primarily because I don’t like yet another new manager come in unless it’s completely fecked which may well be. And I don’t see many options who will magically make us a fluid attacking outfit overnight. However, next appointment hopefully is not someone as dour as Mourinho.
There is little point being steadfast on either end of the stick. Jose has neither set the league on fire nor has he been an utter failure so I don't see how anyone reasonable can be absolutely 100% on either side without any qualifiers. The guys you're discussing with have been reasonable in their opinion or at the very least presented their viewpoints constructively. That's all you can ask for. You don't have to take it upon yourself to save Jose in this thread.
Problem is. The league isn't even finished yet and you lot complained as if we're out of top 4.
Let the man finish his league and assess him after. You're all basing your critics of him not being good enough based on a hypothetical finishing below 2nd.
Give the man the benefits of doubt.
Agreed. Almost exactly. Although based on league finishes and cup wins for the 3-4 years prior, the United of 2016 does resemble the pre-Ferguson United of 1986. Of course in many other ways we are in a better position now due to the long term success of Ferguson after his take over.
So you are trying to be offensive with the ‘boyfriend’ comment, nice. You are trying to use a post after a win against chelsea acting like that is the pattern of your posts. In reality, the pattern of your posts is to downplay everything Jose does. That’s the point here. Let’s just end this here, we clearly do not agree on anything.
It is just depressing on here lately. Back Jose!!
That's how it appears to you, because you clearly like him much better and rate him much higher than I do. I'm under no obligation to like or rate Mourinho or the job he's done at United so far.
Of course you have no obligation. I have read your posts though and it’s overly negative. Like I said though, lets just leave it here.
Have to agree with this. Very well put, if I may say so. Earlier evidence (credentials with every other club) has me hopeful, the evidence from his stint at United so far, not so much.
The problem is not people not backing jose, thats fine, even I have lost some belief with Jose in last month or two. Problem is people who want Jose gone or don't like him do not present a proper solution. Presenting hindsight solution is not what is needed, or saying let us go for pep or klopp is also not happening. Poch is a realistic option, one I would also prefer but that ain't happening either. Pochettino has shown no sign of leaving spurs and even if he leaves it will be very tough to lure him to us. Levy may not let that happen. So that looks unrealistic.
Jardim is unproven, and so far is looking a one season wonder. Tuchel is a good option but he is also unproven and there is no guarentee he can actually sustain the pressure here. Simeone another defensive manager, same with Allegri. Ancelotti may have past it, we could find another lvg esque situation with him. Sarri could be an option but he would take a season or even two to get things working to suite his style. Giggs must prove with wales before we can take a punt on him.
The point is its not all rosy elsewhere. Allso, people must understand managing united brings extra pressure and media attention. A draw to newport and rochdale will not be appreciated. Poch may not face grueling questions managing spurs, but here he will be asked countless question about these silly draws. These small things do matter.
Jardim is unproven, and so far is looking a one season wonder. Tuchel is a good option but he is also unproven and there is no guarentee he can actually sustain the pressure here. Simeone another defensive manager, same with Allegri. Ancelotti may have past it, we could find another lvg esque situation with him. Sarri could be an option but he would take a season or even two to get things working to suite his style. Giggs must prove with wales before we can take a punt on him.
The point is its not all rosy elsewhere. Allso, people must understand managing united brings extra pressure and media attention. A draw to newport and rochdale will not be appreciated. Poch may not face grueling questions managing spurs, but here he will be asked countless question about these silly draws. These small things do matter.
Forget about the media. Jose fan boy will crucify him if he's not better than 2nd with free flow total football. :P
Regarding attacking coaches - they aren’t really a thing are they?
I mean who has one? Who currently does this job?
I mean who has one? Who currently does this job?
To me Jose Mourinho's performance is really hard to judge. I find the way he plays extremely boring to watch. Against many sides it appears United are second best, yet somehow seem to nick goals regularly. Once or twice you could call it luck, but it happens quite regularly not sure you can say it is luck.
At this time the only arguments that can be made against him are the football is quite boring and possibly that United should be challenging for the title instead of a top four battle considering money spent. While some argue that if it wasn't for City's phenomenal season they would be in the title race, but dont think this is a valid argument considering historically how many points league winners have.
Arguments for him are that he has brought in two trophies even if the Europa league was weirdly weak last season. Trophies are trophies. Think there has been some progression how much of that is due to the spending is tough to quantify. He has also been doing pretty good at winning games even if the manner in which they are winning isn't that convincing.
I think you have to wait till at least the end of the season to really make a credible argument either way. Have to wrap it up games on.
At this time the only arguments that can be made against him are the football is quite boring and possibly that United should be challenging for the title instead of a top four battle considering money spent. While some argue that if it wasn't for City's phenomenal season they would be in the title race, but dont think this is a valid argument considering historically how many points league winners have.
Arguments for him are that he has brought in two trophies even if the Europa league was weirdly weak last season. Trophies are trophies. Think there has been some progression how much of that is due to the spending is tough to quantify. He has also been doing pretty good at winning games even if the manner in which they are winning isn't that convincing.
I think you have to wait till at least the end of the season to really make a credible argument either way. Have to wrap it up games on.
Accuse me of ignoring your points, then ignore my points. Oh the irony.
Agreed that Sir Alex is twice the manager of Mourinho, but I think you're missing my point. I'm simply saying that whilst Sir Alex is the best manager ever to grace the game in my opinion, I still think with one or two of his poorer seasons when the squads were in transition, he may have been at risk of finishing outside of the top 4 in today's league.
I'll give you 1 example.
In 2003-2004:
Arsenal 90
Chelsea 79
United 75
Liverpool 60
---------------
Newcastle 56
Aston Villa 56
United finished on 75 points and finished in 3rd. Last season's Premier League with that final points total, would have resulted in joint 5th place with Arsenal, and we actually finished 6th. In 2003-2004 we were fortunate that the 5th and 6th sides were Newcastle and Aston Villa, and not Chelsea and Arsenal of today. Currently this season Chelsea are on 53 points, with 10 games to play, it's not unrealistic for them to get another 18-21 points and finish on 73-74 points yet still finish 5th.
I'm simply highlighting the difference in quality in the league back then to now, it's plainly obvious that the quality level in the top 6 is might higher than then, which results in a harder task to finish in the top 4 or challenge.
Its just a beginning.
Among the worst posts I've ever read on here. I can't take some of your opionions serious, your hate for Jose is really something else.
Thanks, the only problem being that I don't hate him. I don't rate his current work though.
You don't have too. Trophies, position, Cl progress before and after him speak for themselves.
Has his work cut out if he wants the league. We can't just accept being second best.
He does but there's more than one way to skin a cat
We can and should be winning the league in the next 2 years. This is how I will judge Jose Mourinho's tenure at our club. If he fails to win it, it would have been a failure and I'm sure Mourinho himself would see it the same way.
Finishing outside the top 4 is unthinkable and unforgivable at this point of our progress post-SAF. Nobody should be allowed to survive such downfall.
Finishing outside the top 4 is unthinkable and unforgivable at this point of our progress post-SAF. Nobody should be allowed to survive such downfall.
A few points.
I've seen people use this method of popping a team from the past into today's league table to make an inference, and it's pretty flawed. Every season is different and the points tallies don't necessarily compare well across seasons. Going by this logic our team from 99 was pretty poor compared to last season's Chelsea, and would possibly even be behind the current United team this year. And that's not the case. The logic just doesn't work and ignores too many variables and the use of context which should never be the case. It's statistical playfullness to produce irrelevant conclusions.
Your second point about Chelsea and Arsenal being stronger than the teams fighting for top 4 then is a much more valid one. That's fine. But again, there's a lot to consider when deciding what to draw from that. Firstly that season was on the back of a brilliant league win. Sir Alex essentially bossed the league and then took a few years to transition because he felt it would be worth it. Jose had been brought in to win. He needs to deliver. Bringing us on to the second point that he has been backed with enormous funds to do so. He's getting players like Sanchez and Pogba whereas SAF went with Rooney and Ronaldo for the future along with punts like Djemba etc.
Going from 6th to 3rd and 2 trophies (including a European one) and qualification to 2 CLs is still objectively better than going from 4th to 5th, 1 trophy, and going from CL to no CL.
Mourinho seems to be headed in the right direction. LVG wasn't unfortunately. And I liked VG.
I can't believe some people are comparing LVG. Joses has done a very good job BUT because of the amount spend by plastic clubs, we have an issue. Moyes came in and destroyed the mentality because he couldn't do the job. LVG played a system that asked for players we didn't have. We were so bad we would pass the ball backwards against teams we should have beat comfortably. We need players. We are short. We've exceptional youth coming through but the balance of the squad (in a day and age of so much distraction/money) is harder then it's ever been. We took a massive hit and we're still climbing off the canvas. We've some interesting young talent but it's still learning and as they get older hopefully they'll mature and get better. Clearly we need to find a role for Sanchez that gets the most out of him and the team. We can be POSITIVE. To even compare to LVG is idiocy. When you pass sideways like cowards you can get decent results against many teams. We don't do that as much now and we're still finding the balance. We're players short because some numpties gave good players away and didn't bolster properly. Last season our home form was a problem. Now it's not too bad results wise. It's just performances sometimes but I think we have given clubs 'hope' and at some point that will change. I don't know what we'll do this season but if Jose can find the right shape and accommodate these players with good man management then we can be optimistic. BUT the spending by other clubs has altered the landscape. Our scouting needs to be working over time and we just have to be patient. But LVG's football was mostly dire. I remember one cup game at OT against some league one team or lower and for the first 10 or so minutes we were just passing it round the back or some nonsense and that annoyed me beyond belief. Against certain teams I can understand it but all that does is tell your opponent that you've no balls. It's also an insult to the players.
- Status