Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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Spurs were in the race and then imploded at the end.
'Dropping them all the time'?
But yes. Managers will drop stars.
No, not really. If they do, it’s for a game or two. The same happened to Pogba.
I believe he has done well to steady the ship that was sinking rapidly after Moyes and LVG but I don't think he can take us any further now. His CV is probably the best in the game and he was the correct manager to come after LVG. Just look at the calibre of signings he's made. The likes of Pogba, Sanchez, Zlatan would've been crazy to think about before Jose arrived but he convinced them to come.
The problem is how is he getting the best out of the talent at his disposal? The convincing part is over. Now you have to deliver on the pitch. We have players that most teams and managers would envy but it's down to the manager to fit them into a cohesive attacking unit.
Against the smaller teams our individual attacking quality makes the difference but when you come against teams with similar individual quality you'll struggle because the collective unit isn't there. That's why we have such a bad record in big games.
He isn't going to provide the exciting football the fans demand and there is evidence in his time here so far that the game has passed him by. He's still a great manager and will always be a great manager but he's been here almost 2 years and we still lack an identity or style of play. What kind of team are we? We don't press and we don't counter with the usual instinct that's required so I'm a bit confused. If Jose is willing to adapt then I have no problem with him for the next 5/6 years otherwise we should keep our options open for the near future.
The problem is how is he getting the best out of the talent at his disposal? The convincing part is over. Now you have to deliver on the pitch. We have players that most teams and managers would envy but it's down to the manager to fit them into a cohesive attacking unit.
Against the smaller teams our individual attacking quality makes the difference but when you come against teams with similar individual quality you'll struggle because the collective unit isn't there. That's why we have such a bad record in big games.
He isn't going to provide the exciting football the fans demand and there is evidence in his time here so far that the game has passed him by. He's still a great manager and will always be a great manager but he's been here almost 2 years and we still lack an identity or style of play. What kind of team are we? We don't press and we don't counter with the usual instinct that's required so I'm a bit confused. If Jose is willing to adapt then I have no problem with him for the next 5/6 years otherwise we should keep our options open for the near future.
I'm not sure why it's even a question. If he fails to finish in the top 4 he should be gone, unless he somehow wins the CL.
And how many games did you think I wanted them dropped for?
Because there's no telling what would happen if City wasn't as relentless as they have been this season, it's all hypothetical. People saying "if City wasn't as strong" we would have been first are failing to understand that the league isn't just City and United ,maybe some other team would have stepped up instead of having a subpar season, maybe that team would have been us, maybe it would have been Spurs, or Liverpool, or Chelsea or maybe even Arsenal.
His performance isn't some sort of binary thing: good or bad; acceptable or unacceptable. It's much more complicated than that. Broadly speaking, I think he's done well to pull the club out of the tailspin it was in, won a couple of trophies and, all things being equal, we should finish top 4 reasonably comfortably once we find a bit of form. So in that sense, he's done a decent-good job. He inherited a squad of players that was lobsided and filled with players who, in quite a few cases, had been underperforming for years and, in some cases, probably already been proven not to be up to the task. Now he's got to start making inroads into the next part of the job, which is getting us into contention for the league and genuinely competitive at the business end of the CL.
BUT treating bad performances/results as events that are happening to him, as it seems some people are willing to do, is also too generous. He has to take some responsibility for the fact that, all too often, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of attacking invention or ingenuity. If we come up against sides of a similar level to us - and in some cases, against sides who are really sharp tactically - it doesn't look to me like there's a massive amount there for us to fall back upon. Likewise, a manager continuing to pick players who've been proven to be an issue has to be down to him in part - albeit, again, shifting overpaid Man Utd players on long contracts isn't exactly as easy as it's made out to be - so he's not free of blame on that front either.
I don't think he should be sacked or even be under pressure at this point, but if we're still muddling along in a battle for 2nd or 3rd in 18 months time, without any sign that we're really progressing, then he could find himself in trouble.
BUT treating bad performances/results as events that are happening to him, as it seems some people are willing to do, is also too generous. He has to take some responsibility for the fact that, all too often, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of attacking invention or ingenuity. If we come up against sides of a similar level to us - and in some cases, against sides who are really sharp tactically - it doesn't look to me like there's a massive amount there for us to fall back upon. Likewise, a manager continuing to pick players who've been proven to be an issue has to be down to him in part - albeit, again, shifting overpaid Man Utd players on long contracts isn't exactly as easy as it's made out to be - so he's not free of blame on that front either.
I don't think he should be sacked or even be under pressure at this point, but if we're still muddling along in a battle for 2nd or 3rd in 18 months time, without any sign that we're really progressing, then he could find himself in trouble.
I'm always happy to be proven wrong in those sort of cases and why shouldn't I? You think I care about winning argument on internet more than I want United to succeed? Don't be ridiculous, I just have little hope and genuinely think he took us as far as he can.
I think there's something about Carrington inside when they just want to extend Jose's contract by 1 years so they can buy times to build a United's structure set up like bring in new DOF and overhauled scouting network, snapped up Javier Ribault from Juventus to join us as a chief scout last summer. I reckon they are building for the future, in a similar way how City is building for Pep Guardiola since 2012. United also invested heavily in the youth academy recently. I think United has identified a new type of manager who they want to bring it to United, preferably manager who can play youth academy after getting promoted from the academy. I can think of Allegri and Jardim which United is more likely to bring in 2020 if United don't activate 1 years option in Jose's contract, both managers are committed to the clubs until 2020 or waiting for a new exciting young manager like Pochettino who has contact with Spurs until 2021 but I prefer Pochettino despite lack of his trophies success, because of their style of play which United was famous for in the 90s.
However, I think United board know they can't depend on Jose's stability and need to prepare for whenever Jose is leaving so we can continue stability with the new manager if everything is already set up, which United is building.
A year and a half in:
-Whats his best 11
-Whats his best formation
-Whats his style of play
I dont think any of these can truly be answered which causes a big issue if we want consistency.
-Whats his best 11
-Whats his best formation
-Whats his style of play
I dont think any of these can truly be answered which causes a big issue if we want consistency.
Mourinho has been facing a big dilemma. We've got liverpool, Chelsea and Seville coming up in the next few weeks. He probably doesn't trust McTominay for those games. Fellaini will be out injured who he does trust. Herrera more than likely would have started today had he not been injured. So Jose is thinking to keep trying Pogba in that midfield 2 in the hope that he can get used to it and start performing there which would solve the riddle of being able to keep both Pogba and Lingard in the same line up. It backfired again today. So with Carrick coming on Jose is probably thinking he'll play Carrick next to Matic for the huge games coming up with Pogba or Lingard further forward in a midfield 3.
1 or 2? I dont know? They were dropped for a game so I dont get your point.
The point is the teams around us are good teams and we are above them. It's not just about being first, we would at least be in contention.
"The same Newcastle that couldn't win a game since October at their home ground, and is in the relegation zone?"
The upcoming Chelsea game is one of the most crucial games in this season. Mentally and tactically, we look terrible. If relegation fodder is playing better football than us, then I am not having high hopes for a game against a team that is just behind our back, even if their season is worse than ours.
All 3 of those can definitely be answered; and this is exactly what people are having a meltdown about.
People don't like that our best 11 has players like Smalling and Young in it. People don't like that our go to formation is a 4-2-3-1. People don't like that we are a defense first oriented team; that attacks without structure.
Our style of play is to play safety first; wait for an opening and attack that opening.
Newcastle had more fight in them, winning every 50/50 challenge, but if you think they actually played better football then we today, we can't have any discussion.
I hope you are right and we are truly preparing.
We aren't, the contract extension smacks of not understanding football and was just amateur, for me it was clearly a case of just looking at the table seeing, oh we are 2nd in the league currently, progress, and thinking PSG might steal him from us which was never the case so they gave him a new contract. Instead of doing the smart thing which was to wait to see how this season panned out at the end and, if favourable, then offering him a contract.
The lack of identity is worrying.
We gave him a 1-year contract extension. It's not such a big sign of confidence.
Not to excuse Mourinho at all, but Pogba played further forward than Lingard and has less defensive responsibility than Lingard.
Pogba's awful performance today is down to Pogba himself(either through an injury? or just an awful play).
Then what was the point?
NO manager does it often. You are arguing a total nonsense.
They think he is the best available option at the moment. We didn't want to commit ourselves too long, though.
But then surely my point stands that it would of been better to assess our situation at seasons end and dish out contracts accordingly, rather than doing it now when the season isn't even over yet and we could still conceivably end up outside the Top 4
He is what I hoped LVG to be. Someone who would steady the ship somewhat and get us somewhat stabilized, but unable to push us back to the top.
I have no confidence in us ever winning the league under Jose. We barely press. And when we do, it's not collective. We get pressed to death ourselves not by collective pressing, but by individual pressing. It's infuriating to watch.
Did anyone think we'd win the game today? As soon as Newcastle scored, I just knew we'd lose.
I just hope he gets us in the top 4, but I'd be open to a change in the summer if something presents itself.
I have no confidence in us ever winning the league under Jose. We barely press. And when we do, it's not collective. We get pressed to death ourselves not by collective pressing, but by individual pressing. It's infuriating to watch.
Did anyone think we'd win the game today? As soon as Newcastle scored, I just knew we'd lose.
I just hope he gets us in the top 4, but I'd be open to a change in the summer if something presents itself.
It stands in a way, but things in football change very quickly. Before Spurs, they were in a bad form with tough fixture list while we were clear favourites for second place with Sanchez as a new player. They wanted probably to acknowledge the progress we made so far.
Don't have much problem with that, though. I think we will still end in top 4 and he deserves another year.
This is actually the thing with which I don't agree. Signing 6-year contract with Moyes was amateur and stupid, not this.
We're on course for 79 points which wouldn't have been enough for the league title at any time since the nineties. In a "normal" season we would still finish second or third.
'Do it more often' doesn't mean 'often'... Or 'all the time' like you tried to suggest I was saying in my earlier post.
The only nonsense here was your suggestion that Jose regularly drops or even rests star player becuase he did it one time against fecking Huddersfield.
Some points in response:
1. The league Cup is treated by a joke by a lot of top teams and the EL is the second-tier euro comp. It was great to win those trophies but let's not pretend we won the PL/CL double.
2. We're better than we were under Lvg and Moyes, but we're not much better.
3. Lvg and Moyes were two of the worst managers in United history. It's a bit like saying someone's better-looking than Ian Dowie.
4. Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side.
5. We played well today but we were playing Newcastle.
6. The 'fickle' thing is just name-calling and smacks of 'look at me' top red nonsense. It has no place in a sensible debate.
I did not suggest such a thing. No manager really drops his top players. If they do, its for 1 or 2 games. Same as Mourinho did with Pogba and Martial. That is my point.
Agree with you @Brophs in almost every regard. The only thing I could still see being the case in 18 months time is that we are fighting for 2nd. City could well be emerging as a powerhouse in Europe (too early to tell of course, but there is margin for improvement there in terms of player acquisition). All the other challengers can improve. And to be honest, none of them have the same amount of pressure United has now that we've spent some money, and as you said, escaped from the tailspin we found ourselves in, with a serial winning manager at the helm.
We definitely shouldn't be dropping points with tame performances against dreadful sides like today, but some would have one believe that the only thing that needs fixing is the formation and coaching players to find the box and make moves for each other. Like @DWelbz19 said somewhere today, there must be something else going on, because this seems unnatural. A issue of mentality - we aren't up for the fight..why?
The other main hindrance to us seriously challenging for the title is player recruitment. We are still not great and Jose did take on an enormous task in that regard. Can we sign the quality we need in midfield and defence? Big test ahead.
We definitely shouldn't be dropping points with tame performances against dreadful sides like today, but some would have one believe that the only thing that needs fixing is the formation and coaching players to find the box and make moves for each other. Like @DWelbz19 said somewhere today, there must be something else going on, because this seems unnatural. A issue of mentality - we aren't up for the fight..why?
The other main hindrance to us seriously challenging for the title is player recruitment. We are still not great and Jose did take on an enormous task in that regard. Can we sign the quality we need in midfield and defence? Big test ahead.
I am a big fan of Jose and still think he will lead us to the title but for that he has to be the old Jose. I cannot understand since when Jose has started to tolerate mediocrity. Old Jose would never have been so patient with the likes of smalling. He has to get his mojo back. The present tactics won't help us to reach the pinnacle. He must start changing his methods, maybe bring an atracking coach, maybe spend more time on attacking play rather than playing according to the opponents.
There defence is not worse than ours, there keeper is by far worse than ours. De Gea is the reason we are 2nd. Before today’s game De Gea has a 84% save stat.
You never know unless you try.
Agree with all of this. If Jose settles the club down wins a few cup trophies and gets us in the Top 4 for the next year or two then I wont be upset.
I sometimes can’t believe what i’m reading on this forum from our fanbase. We have one of the winningest managers in football. We’re nitpicking him to bits week in week out. It’s not just nitpicking. It’s nitpicking without proper context taken into consideration. Football is tiring with forums and it’s fanbase like these. I might have to enjoy football like it used to be by staying off these forums. I remember these forums used to be somewhat fun but the culture of just spewing crap and diarrhea of the mind on a keyboard is getting more and more unbearable.
Agree some are going overboard, Jose needs to be backed. But criticism should be given as well since he deserves it at this point. We have suffered back to back away defeats in which we didn't even put up a fight. More worryingly, we strengthened our attack with Sanchez and yet Jose is struggling to get the best out of him. These are all concerning issues that were papered over by the excitement of a new signing and Jose's contract extension.
I've had an issue with our build up and attacking play from back when most were blinded by the fantastic results earlier in the season.
Our lack of a midfield makes it hard to come to a definitive conclusion though (with regard to my view that our coaching has been lacking) and he'll get away with a lot (rightly or wrongly) because of it. I think Jose had an expectation of Pogba that has failed to materialise, and because we haven't a Carrick-replacement we've been pretty fecked. Mctominay has been decent decent but there's a lot of important games coming up - should we roll the dice with him or hope Pogba takes the responsibility that comes with being the star player of Man United and does what the team needs?
Buying Sanchez to put him on the left where we're already stacked seems a little bizarre too. Plenty of attacking talent, it's on Mou to make it work and integrate them. But thrn we come back to the issue of our midfield, it's difficult to judge anything when we have no midfield.
The CBs are also nowhere near the quality of our title winning teams of the past, and our ultra defensive approach has been a by-product of that since LVG days. Sure they have their qualities and capable of good performances, but let's be real Rojo can be rash, Smalling and Jones always have a brain fart in them, Bailly hasn't played enough and Lindelof is potential. Valencia will expire soon, but on a positive note Shaw seems to be somewhat revitalised and is beginning to improve.
Jose has a lot of stuff to figure out but I'm confident he will.
Our lack of a midfield makes it hard to come to a definitive conclusion though (with regard to my view that our coaching has been lacking) and he'll get away with a lot (rightly or wrongly) because of it. I think Jose had an expectation of Pogba that has failed to materialise, and because we haven't a Carrick-replacement we've been pretty fecked. Mctominay has been decent decent but there's a lot of important games coming up - should we roll the dice with him or hope Pogba takes the responsibility that comes with being the star player of Man United and does what the team needs?
Buying Sanchez to put him on the left where we're already stacked seems a little bizarre too. Plenty of attacking talent, it's on Mou to make it work and integrate them. But thrn we come back to the issue of our midfield, it's difficult to judge anything when we have no midfield.
The CBs are also nowhere near the quality of our title winning teams of the past, and our ultra defensive approach has been a by-product of that since LVG days. Sure they have their qualities and capable of good performances, but let's be real Rojo can be rash, Smalling and Jones always have a brain fart in them, Bailly hasn't played enough and Lindelof is potential. Valencia will expire soon, but on a positive note Shaw seems to be somewhat revitalised and is beginning to improve.
Jose has a lot of stuff to figure out but I'm confident he will.
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