He's completely different at home most of the time, but was not the case against City. Agreed last season at home we looked to dominate and did pretty much dominate those games. Away from home was completely different tactics in those games for one reason or another, and it's remained this season.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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Mou is happy with Lukaku and Lukaku started with a bang. Lukaku’s drought coincided with the absence of a midfield maestro that Jose also bought & that is Pogba.
Without Pogba, Lukaku gets a solitary chance in a game against big sides. If he doesn’t take that chance then we don’t score or win those games.
With Pogba, it’s a different ball game. We create chances everywhere and from that abundance, Lukaku gets to score goals. That’s the way it works.
What about Blind, Herrera, Darmian, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, etc that LVG bought? This was the dross Jose met on arrival while the manager we like to compare with Jose had KDB, Silva, Aguero, Fernandinho, Sterling, etc already in the squad. Can you not see that Jose had a much rebuilding job to do than his counterpart across the city?
Pep inherited better players and still spent more. Jose bought 7 players, Pep has added 17 players to the array of quality players he met at City. Despite this, you somehow still expect United to be at par with City. Do you think Jose is a miracle worker? That we are 2nd on the table is actually a testament to Jose’s managerial ability.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Who knew how Salah would turn when Liverpool bought him. Lukaku is not actually a poor striker, he just isn’t very clinical. If we are a side that creates multiple chances per game, it’s fair to say Lukaku is up to the task of scoring a goal per game.
The last 6 times SAF went to Anfield, we lost 4 of those games and we drew the other one. Other clubs can go to Anfield and win but when they face us, it’s their CL final. Liverpool fans are happy to finish 17th as long as they beat Man Utd.
Why limit it to the last 10 games? This is a fraudulent way of using statistics. You used the era when Chelsea players stopped playing for him cos he sacked Eva and the period he met deadweights at Man Utd?
What about the season Gerrard slipped? What about the multiple times he’s destroyed Arsène Wenger? What about his record against SAF? What about the first time he took Matic to the Etihad and ran away the winner in that big game.
You see - we can tweak statistics to say whatever we want it to say. The only manager in the world that is at par with Jose is Pep. You should be happy we signed Mourinho. If we had persisted with LVG or David Moyes, we would be lying below Burnley as we speak. If you cannot see improvement already between last season & now, I’m afraid I cannot help you.
You keep making the same mistakes. The talented players in United are rarely fit when the big games come around. On paper, it’s essy to write names down and create a perception that the team should be doing better against top 6 sides. However, the reality paints a different image. I cannot remember the last time we had a clean bill of health going into a big game.
Go back to those games & tell me our starting XI in many of those games and it will surprise you the number of absentees going into those games. You have admitted our quality players are not enough & when you still get absentees from the few quality players due to strange injuries & suspensions, what do you have left?
You think we do, but we don’t. All we have are similar sets of players all over the pitch. We have close to 8 midfielders in the squad and none of them can run with the ball or get past their markers apart from Pogba. What does that say about the squad?
We don’t have a specialist freekick taker or someone that can hit good cornerkicks. We don’t have a Carrick-type of player that can ping accurate long passes from a deep zone. Other teams have these players in abundance whereby if one were to be injured, there’s a competent replacement waiting on the sides.
I was waiting for this.
Jose Mourinho did not beg to play Europa Cup. He inherited the competition from LVG, he didn’t ask for it.
If he had been eliminated in the competition, you would be here slagging him off for losing against a mediocre team. He won the bloody competition, what more could you ask of him?
Nope not one. The irritating thing is in pointing out this fiction it can make you look very anti Mourinho which I don't think I am.
My complaints are borne out of pure frustration because I don't think he realises how good this squad is. Which is weird cos he's shaped it.
Answered them in bold. I think some people go too far in defending their manager that they lose all perspective and start thinking that their way is the only way. Or that criticizing them means that you want them to get sacked. Everyone has their weaknesses and can do better. Mourinho's downfall is his approach and mentality when it comes to big games, and his preference for big physical players like Lukaku instead of prioritizing talented players who will help you just outplay the opponent in the first place.
Lots of great managers here that understand everything about football. Love it
Not going to bother going through all the 11's of the big games but you can't make excuses for 1.5 years of poor big game performances. It's too long a time of the same type of performances and results for it to be blamed on injuries. Either plan for the injuries accordingly if they are the main issue, or go for a different set up.
You say we don't have those players, but why hasn't Mourinho bought them then? He's spent close to 300m, surely he should have bought more of those types of players then? I generally agree on the midfield part btw, though I do think Matic behind Pogba and one more is fine as the carrick replacement, and Herrera is a good back up to have there. The problem is that 3rd midfielder, though again I think Mata could do a good enough job there for the time being in the right system, felt Mkhitaryan could've played there as he played in midfield plenty of times in the past and be that dynamic player (but he's too inconsistent), but definitely a position where we should bring in someone like Isco/Silva/De Bruyne to complete the midfield 3. But again, we aren't looking at that type of player really.
Set piece specialist... I'm just confused as to why Rashford takes all of them as he is shite at them. Young was great at corners and free kicks at Villa and just recently scored a beauty against Watford, and generally he is a very good crosser (and was good at them under Fergie too). Pogba is very good at free kicks. Mata at Chelsea got loads of assists from set pieces and is quality at free kick. Mkhitaryan at Dortmund was very good at corners. For set pieces in general I think we just don't train them properly because we've been awful at them for a while and are a mess at defending them too (as evidenced vs City).
On the Europa League part, he did well to win it. I was delighted that we won it and said on here loads of times I was happy he prioritized that over trying to get top 4. Performances leading up to the final, come on, they were a struggle and a half against average opposition. My main point here was that you can't point to a Europa League win as a marker of us being one of the top teams who can handle big games. We had an easy run and won as was expected of us, but still made pretty hard work of it and didn't really play that well apart from the final which was an easy performance against the naive Ajax side.
Ah another one of those "you aren't a manager, he is a manager, therefore your opinion is invalid" posts. Love it. What's the point of forums again?
Have valid discussions, point what's write and what's wrong and not spew hate. Kind of different of what is really happening, specially on this post that is just a bandwagon for haters.
If we take a look at our squad one by one and assessed who we'd keep come next summer, I think we'd have a good idea just how good it is.
Goalkeepers - both are fine as no. 1 and no. 2.
Fullbacks:
Darmian - defensively good, going forward not really. Would get rid.
Shaw - attitude problems. I would keep if he performs well this season.
Valencia - needs replacing.
Young - needs replacing.
Blind - would keep as he is versatile.
Center backs:
Long story, short - they are all good. Keep them all.
Midfielders:
Pogba - no need to say much.
Fellaini - would keep, but looks like hes gone.
Herrera - not sure whats happened to him. May need to replace if he continues this woeful form.
Attacking mids:
Mata: needs replacing. Hasnt offered much this season.
Mkhi: clearly not good enough.
Lingard: ever improving. Good enough as a starter.
Forwards:
As with CBs they are all good enough but, and this is the key, theyre young and learning all the time.
Ibra - will need to replace him.
Looking at the above, albeit my opinion, our defense is missing quality fullbacks. As good as Young and Valencia have been, they are not fullbacks and simply dont offer enough. I commend them for their determination and effort, but they are both 32/33 so dont really have much more of a future.
Our central midfield is good but is being carried by Matic. We had five CMs to start the season and have been forced to start an academy graduate in a few big CL games. Form, injuries and suspensions have hurt us a lot.
The attackers, most of whom are young, have outscored every other PL front three/four. Lukaku, Rashford, Lingard and Martial have been nothing but brilliant this season. I know people like to criticise each and everyone but they have together scored 30+ goals this season as well as an assist tally of atleast 15 goals. We have been a little let down by the Mata and Mkhi who have underperformed.
The squad is good, not great, it has incredible potential. Have a look at the guys who are still under 25:
Bailly
Lindelof
Pogba
Martial
Jones (?)
Lingard
Lukaku
Rashford
And they are all key players and regular starters. This is why I dont agree with a lot of the criticism Mourinho gets. Apart from Matic (to some extent), De Gea and Smalling, none of our other players are in their prime. A lot of our key players are young and showing so much potential, especially our attackers.
I'd say that everyone's having a very valid discussion here and giving their opinions on what direction the club should be headed in and giving their opinions on how it's been going. The vast majority haven't been spewing any type of hate. Criticism is allowed you know without being hateful or just saying "sack him".Have valid discussions, point what's write and what's wrong and not spew hate. Kind of different of what is really happening, specially on this post that is just a bandwagon for haters.
Yeah it could do with a couple more players in their prime, though I think you've left Mkhitaryan off the list.
That doesn't mean the squad isn't really good though. I think we've got so used to these huge squads we've lost perspective on how brilliant it is to have such depth.
For all the talk of a midfield injury crisis we were still able to field Matic and Herrera. Not too shabby for a last resort.
Have zero problem with criticism, i have a problem that criticism only appears when a game is lost. How many pages were added here after the loss vs city and how many were vs arsenal?
United has a problem, the problem is the cm's cant really create anything if Pogba doesn't play and we have to live with that. It's hard to lose, yes it is. But when we lose we can't start shooting everywhere expecting to be the one to get the bullseye
When else is criticism going to occur?
I think you mean when he does well he doesn't get the same amount of praise compared to criticism when he loses. On that I would have to agree. It's one of those where people are so used to false dawns that they won't give credit until a long run or something significant is achieved, but will criticise at every stumble.
I agree that we're a significantly lesser team without Pogba, but for me United are still playing without any distinct identity or pattern and that's worrying. Even if it's a inherently defensive one. We have some traits that can be picked out between games but still no overall style of play. It's a very important facet of a strong team IMHO because players need to build their understanding of positional play and to gel with each other and it becomes much harder when your role is changing between each match. I'm hoping all the bad luck with Pogba has passed now so we should have him fit and firing for the rest of the season anyway.
This. I obviously want us to be a dominating, attacking, exciting team. But that's not going to happen with Mourinho. Mourinho in big games wants a defensive unit that can soak up all the pressure and not give away chances (okay happens now and then that you'll concede and give away chances of course), but like a prime Atletico Madrid under Simeone. Solid at the back, incredibly hard to break down, then counter attack and be clinical on the break. It's not the style that I really think we should be aspiring to given close to endless funds available that we have, but whatever. If that is Mourinho's goal, then buy towards that. Our signings have not been that at all. Our team right now doesn't have players capable of playing like that. We don't have center backs or fullbacks in that mould who have formed a set unit at the back where they can form a solid backline to build off of, nor is our midfield built towards that. We play a winger at left back, Valencia at right back used to be a winger but has turned into a good right back (but is now old). Bailly is a good center back but proving injury prone, Jones is always injured, Smalling is always injured, Lindelof seems more a Pep style lightweight, agile ball playing center back rather then a Mourinho/Simeone type no nonsense center back.
On the midfield, Matic is obviously that type that can be used in a shut down type system. Pogba though? In a midfield 3 give him the creative license. Play him in a midfield 2 then we won't be solid in midfield, but have plenty of holes. Then for that we need our wingers to be creative and fast and good dribblers and capable of running with the ball down the wings. Mkhitaryan? No. Martial on the left is capable of it, but we also need someone just like that on the right wing which we don't have. Up top for that type of system ideally you want an all around striker that is good aerially to compete with opposition center backs, one who can bring the ball down on his chest under pressure and hold it up to bring others into play. Someone like Diego Costa worked perfectly for Mou. Drogba. Dzeko. Ibra in his prime. Talented on the ball strikers along with being dominant aerially. Lukaku isn't that at all. Lukaku sucks in the air, he sucks at hold up play and he sucks at linking up with others. Icardi would have been a lot closer to what he wanted, as would have Morata, as would probably Belotti (from the little I've actually watched of him). Lukaku is not the type for that system. And in that system especially, the striker is arguably the most important player, because if they can't hold up the ball and compete with center backs, then the pressure is never relieved and there is never counter attacks. So yeah, our signings that we've made don't point to any specific style. Just big names really.
Good post. The bit in bold is pretty much my feelings. I know he's a top manager, his CV is impeccable but what we've seen so far doesn't suggest we've got some great side about to show up in a season or two. It's difficult for me to understand why we would extend his contract at this time.
Is embarrassing when people bring up the money issue as a reason to exonerate Mourinho's negative tactics in big games and the teams lack of general identity and composure.
Am not an LVG apologist in anyway and by God I was happy he was gone, but the truth is our players had better composure in big games under him, some we lost and others we dominated. All through his reign we never lost to Liverpool in the league and where pretty much even to city in those derbies.
He(jose) has spent the most after Pep in the league and the difference between the amount spent is neglibLe.
Am sure we could bring out previous discussions in the cafe of many who said pep had a massive rebuilding job considering the age of the squard he inherited.
He was ruthless, and sold those he found surplus to requirement.
I will say this, there wasn't much between the two teams when they but took over, it was the goal difference. They both inherited there problems, Pep an aging squard, Jose a young squard deprived of confidence and real qualities in certain areas.
Don't get me wrong, some of Jose's recruitment has been great while a few underwhelming. When he was about to sign Lukaku(though still early days) most people had their reservations and to be frank his short comings where obvious for everyone to see, just like when we where about to sign Fellaini.
The whole summary is a distinct lack of identity and the small time mentality in big games. Now if only this tactics work, but recent evidence has shown it doesn't. We play in Old Trafford and we shouldn't be that ultra negative.
The gap on Sunday wasn't just reflective of the quality of players in both teams, it was refective of the managers of both teams. Am pretty sure if Jose was in charge of this city team they wouldn't be that fluent, no way would KDB and Silva be starting in the same midfield, no way will Sterling and Sane be that high up the pitch, no way will Jesus be starting ahead of the firing and fit Aguero ( case in point Lukaku/rashford) and no way will Pep be saying fellaini is an important player to him.
He is often to worry about how to stop an opponent that he forgets how to hurt the opponent.
Jose won't change his ways but I expect some middle ground in those that will never see any wrong in his tactics, always pointing to the amount spent, please that is not a valid point.
As always we will always support the manager and the team, but fair criticism must be expected, the board is not some dictatorship regime where people cannot express their opinion about obvious short falls.
Am not an LVG apologist in anyway and by God I was happy he was gone, but the truth is our players had better composure in big games under him, some we lost and others we dominated. All through his reign we never lost to Liverpool in the league and where pretty much even to city in those derbies.
He(jose) has spent the most after Pep in the league and the difference between the amount spent is neglibLe.
Am sure we could bring out previous discussions in the cafe of many who said pep had a massive rebuilding job considering the age of the squard he inherited.
He was ruthless, and sold those he found surplus to requirement.
I will say this, there wasn't much between the two teams when they but took over, it was the goal difference. They both inherited there problems, Pep an aging squard, Jose a young squard deprived of confidence and real qualities in certain areas.
Don't get me wrong, some of Jose's recruitment has been great while a few underwhelming. When he was about to sign Lukaku(though still early days) most people had their reservations and to be frank his short comings where obvious for everyone to see, just like when we where about to sign Fellaini.
The whole summary is a distinct lack of identity and the small time mentality in big games. Now if only this tactics work, but recent evidence has shown it doesn't. We play in Old Trafford and we shouldn't be that ultra negative.
The gap on Sunday wasn't just reflective of the quality of players in both teams, it was refective of the managers of both teams. Am pretty sure if Jose was in charge of this city team they wouldn't be that fluent, no way would KDB and Silva be starting in the same midfield, no way will Sterling and Sane be that high up the pitch, no way will Jesus be starting ahead of the firing and fit Aguero ( case in point Lukaku/rashford) and no way will Pep be saying fellaini is an important player to him.
He is often to worry about how to stop an opponent that he forgets how to hurt the opponent.
Jose won't change his ways but I expect some middle ground in those that will never see any wrong in his tactics, always pointing to the amount spent, please that is not a valid point.
As always we will always support the manager and the team, but fair criticism must be expected, the board is not some dictatorship regime where people cannot express their opinion about obvious short falls.
Does anyone believe that with the money Jose has invested into this United squad, someone like Klopp would've been able to turn Liverpool into a genuine title challenging side? if so, then why?
Nice Post
That on its own isn’t reason to stop criticising Mourinho. But the other part of my post - the context of inherited squad quality and key injuries should be. Also, if we criticise with no possible way to improve things (i.e the manager) then it’s actually counter productive.
I appreciate we all need a moan from time to time though. Especially after a bad result.
Yeah. The contract thing is an issue regarding who would we bring in, and it's worth keeping Mourinho until someone who shows huge potential to turn a team into possibly the best team shows up (like Pep Guardiola, but obviously not possible there). So I don't have that much of a problem with him staying for the foreseeable future. It's just that I don't think he'll ever really make us into a better team then what Pep will make City, simply because Pep's ideal team will beat the ideal Mourinho team most of the time. Pep's ceiling for how good his teams get can be pretty much endless, while Mourinho's will always be a bit hampered by his style. He's of course one of the best managers out there, but he is limited at the end of the day. The thing with the whole building a defensively solid team. I get why Simeone did it with Atletico. It was his only way to compete with free spending teams like Barca and Real Madrid as he'd never have that attacking talent. The thing I don't get with Mourinho is why would you make that your goal when you are one of the teams capable of being that free spending team that can dominate? It's not like Man City are the only team that is allowed to play dominating, attacking football. Both Real Madrid and Barca in spain are super attacking sides with great teams and have been very successful recently. They've matched up to each other pretty well with both looking to attack. We know Man City will be a team like that, always looking to attack and dominate. We should look to also be a side like that, impose ourselves on every other team we play and dominate games and be one of the top teams around. Not settle for being a side set up to stifle the best teams like teams with less funds tend to do.
To be honest the ones spewing hate seem to be the ones that are trying to defend the manager, a lot seem incapable of a decent discussion without resulting to the “buzz word” agenda and so on. It’s getting really tiresome, a good thing tho is that a lot of the crazy seems confined to this thread so it’s all good.
Hear hear.
I do tend to agree. But I just don’t see an obvious managerial candidate who can deliver this.
I have learnt pay little attention to those that use agenda and hate since the Wayne Rooney threads. And like you've rightly pointed out, it's used mainly by those that oppose any criticism directed towards José Mourinho.
If you'd told anyone of them that we'll be 12 points behind City after 16 games, you'd be called those names amongst others. Now the reality is right before our eyes as was the Rooney case.
I joined this forum because I expected to be an open place for all fans with differing opinions but since the arrival of José I'm seeing fans acting like vigilantes on behalf of José as though a disposition to an employee of Manchester United impinges the support for the club. I for one have never been a fan of the guy way before he joined United, and joining United doesn't just change that like that. But It doesn't mean that I don't rate his previous achievements, I just don't think he's methods are right for the job. That's said, I am open to him convincing me otherwise as I am open to every other player in the team but so far I'm not just seeing. So until then, I see no reason why a man that has hardly pulled any trees, flirted with another club, something Wayne Rooney, despite his great contributions for the club got serious stick for (rightly so imo) deserves my undying loyalty.
I hope and want him to succeed for United's sake alone because I'm a supporter of Manchester United. The man will probably leave us soon to another club and call that club his "dream job" as usual. We are means to his end as he is to ours, no harm in that.
Any criticism I level at the manager is because I rate him despite my opinions on him, and team, enough to do better. It wasn't a problem for these fans when it was against Moyes and LvG. If we were in City's position, there will be endless threads on how a big name manager with 7 years experience in the PL, after spending all that money plays some dour football and is 12 points behind their rivals after 16 games.
Its funny with Madrid, has soon has he left Madrid had the best recent successful period in the clubs history probably since 98-03, so it shows his way of playing did not get madrid to where they wanted to get to. PPL can keep going on about we need this and that, hello we needed this in the summer yet he ignored obvious problems, RB, CB, LB, CM, RW, CF, our backups to matic and pogba are pretty poor these days, atleast he should have signed a RW, LB and another CM, and I always question? what is our coaching? we cannot even keep the ball enough, all these ingredients are of a team that will only get you so far, the worst part the result probably is a worrying sign where I be surprised if we get past quarter finals. This kind of football will not beat Madrid, Barca, city, PSG, he relies on luck and hoping to get a result against the big sides, his record against the top 6 proves its very ineffective.
It's really not that simple. Pep's ideal teams are still extremely vulnerable on the counter, something Jose's ideal team would punish severely. If you want to see as close an example as possible to both at their ideal teams, go back and watch the Inter vs Barca game. There is some exceptions like Ibra etc. who obviously didn't suit the team (it was a Pep signing though) but that's ultimately as close as you'd get to the ideal team for both. You claim the sky is the limit for Pep yet that Jose's style hinders the team, what you're forgetting though is that neither manager will be at their respective clubs for long. Pep isn't going to be at City longer than a few years and if anything his record in Europe over the past few years has proved anything but his ability to make a team that's the best in the world. You could argue they play the best football in the World but even that is debatable as I believe Klopp's teams are capable of playing better football, they just don't have the same resources or personnel.
Playing dominant football doesn't result in a team suddenly become one of the best, the dominant football needs to be backed up by major trophies. He went to a Bayern team who played a completely different style to his and tried implementing his style, improving the squad with some very good signings like Thiago and Vidal and didn't make a single final, let alone win a CL. This notion that his team are going to continue improving is baseless, his teams might have a higher ceiling in terms of play style, but in regards to trophies between both Jose and Pep, both managers with their ideal squads are comparable.
Jose wasn't brought in to get us playing dominant football, he was brought in because we've been a fecking laughing stock for years now and constantly made the wrong decisions since SAF left. There's been no proper planning from the board, we had a squad of random players signed under an array of managers all differing in style and we weren't competitive in the slightest. City on the other hand had a plan, planned for Pep years before he came, changed their whole youth setup, signed players and played in a style similar to his - so with a little tweaks he's managed to get the squad a lot closer to what he wants than what Jose currently has. He's no fecking magician who turns shite footballers into attacking geniuses, if that was the case they wouldn't have been so fecking underwhelming last season - even despite arguably his two best players being there before he came - in Silva and KDB.
The second reason Jose was brought in because City got Pep. Funnily enough, when both are at their best, I don't think there's another manager in World football who can stop either one except each-other. Jose has proven if given time he can stump Pep, he stopped a Barca team that was on a completely different level to this City team and did so by breaking records, so to claim his teams are being hindered and can't get us to the top is nonsense. I wouldn't bet against Pep being able to create a team dominant enough to stop Jose at full flow, either.
Neither will be here long, both will most likely cancel eachother out over their times here, if City win this year I wouldn't be surprised to see us win the title next year, only for them both to feck off to their next challenge. City will then sign another manager of a similar style who isn't as good and hopefully United sign a manager who they've planned and prepared for, to finally give us an identity and an idea moving forward.
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This is taken out of context. Jose was brought in to stop Barca's dominance, that easy. He did so eventually and won a La Liga too. Also if it wasn't for a penalty shoot-out you'd argue he would have a CL as well. The other Madrid managers doing better is more down to the decline of Barca than the improvement of Madrid imo. Don't get me wrong, Madrid improved immensely, but Barca just weren't the force they were with Pep leaving, their stars beginning to age and their performances dropping.
Not to add they were constant nearly men before Jose came in and were extremely underwhelming for a club of their resources and prestige.
I believe it is the style of the manager. Spur and Liverpool have much much less wage and transfer budget than United but they are playing attacking football. I don't think anyone should be surprised by Jose's style of football given his track record.
Berbatov was sold because he didn't fit into the idea of the team, that idea being counter-attacking. Remember that he didn't even make the bench in 2011? Alex Ferguson was a negative, counter-attacking manager. Built that 2008 team on defence, he did. Van der Saar got a record for number of minutes without conceding a goal during that period. So can we all stop jerking off to Pep and his possession play? Mourinho was brought here to do a job and that's what he'll do. Too many poets around here for my liking.
I actually think he realizes that. Just that he's too much of a pussy to let them 'play'.
Counter attacking doesn't mean negative, it's actually embarrassing to even compare what Fergie did with his counter attacking teams to Mourinho's side. I get that Mourinho is our manager now, but don't put down what Fergie built to try and big up Mourinho. Possession football like Pep isn't the only way of playing attacking football, nobody is suggesting that. Building a great defence doesn't mean that you're playing defensive football either. We did dominate games though and were pretty much always on the front foot in games, or at least while defending we always were a constant threat on the counter in that we'd soak up a bit of harmless pressure for a little then break with pace. It was never a defensive performance, but rather just attacking through different means. It's not like we had low 30% possession in games because we just let the opponent have the ball the entire game. It's completely different.
The reason Berba was sold was because he wasn't good enough for our side then, which also shows the standard we came to expect. He was a walking pace striker who liked playing slow football and had big moments but was very Ozil like, while the rest of the side a lot of the time was built to attack with pace and play quick football. Or at least, it's what we always tried to be at our best. There were obviously periods in the end of Fergie's time here where we had that boring zombie football, but it was still attacking and us taking the initiative in games to try to dominate and win... Just the problem was that our midfield was getting pretty bad so it led to some boring football.
Absolutely love seeing him challenge the gutter press like that. The only way these guys have power and influence is if we the fans start going along with their narratives. Unfortunately it seems like many just eat it up, watch them retaliate like rejected teenagers now and hammer Jose at every turn in coming weeks, while treating Guardiola like a god.
We start believing it, we turn on manager and club, scum bag gutter press have huge influence.
We adopt a siege mentality, back the club back the players and manager and they have no more influence than some loser on youtube and Jose will be judged appropriately by the board and fans based on results not based on him supposedly being "embarrassing" or "disrespectful" or "lacking class" which are all the go to sound bytes the scum gutter press reach for when challenged
We start believing it, we turn on manager and club, scum bag gutter press have huge influence.
We adopt a siege mentality, back the club back the players and manager and they have no more influence than some loser on youtube and Jose will be judged appropriately by the board and fans based on results not based on him supposedly being "embarrassing" or "disrespectful" or "lacking class" which are all the go to sound bytes the scum gutter press reach for when challenged
Fergie's team were better at counter-attacking but that's because we're a work in progress at the moment. Mourinho is trying to be that good on the counter-attack and to be a constant threat but it takes time. Just look at his Real Madrid team (best in Europe at counter-attacking according to Fergie) or his Chelsea team in the first half of their title winning season. That's what he is trying to implement and to think that the performance against Man City is the standard he's aiming for seems pretty silly to me. All our matches in the future against Man City might be like but if they're the only ones I don't mind. If the games against them are title deciders they'll be pretty exciting anyway, even if we're defending most of the time and only get a goal from a corner to win 1-0.
Yes, so basically because he couldn't counter-attack.
people acting like our greatest manager was a possession maniac,Fergie was mostly about fast counter attacks and exciting wingplay..then people criticize mourinho for trying to build a squad with the same characteristics.
I dnt buy into the narrative that this is the limit with mourinho,this team still has a lot of room for improvement especially at fullbacks,a cm and a top class attacker at right wing and a good 10
I dnt buy into the narrative that this is the limit with mourinho,this team still has a lot of room for improvement especially at fullbacks,a cm and a top class attacker at right wing and a good 10
You picked one result out of 20 head to heads. bit weak to be honest. Why is that the ideal Jose team? because they had one great season? Jose Chelsea mark I was a better team for Jose. His Real team had better players, were backed to the hilt and were even able to win La Liga. That Inter side wouldn't. Even that season on head 2 heads Inter won 1 game vs Barca and lost 2 (including disallowed goal). That one result doesn't make that his ideal team. We won the treble in 99 but that wasn't Fergies ideal team. The fact is they have played with sides in 3 different countries, over 20 games and Jose's teams and tactics have won him 4 games. Pep is on 10 wins and 6 draws.
Using a wide spread of results, it suggests that Jose's teams aren't going to get the better of Peps in the long run.
I picked that result as I was using an example of ideal teams. An ideal squad has nothing to do with the strength of the players. It was ideal for him as it had exactly everything he'd want (or at least as close to). He had a strong, techincal striker with pace, he had a Eto'o playing as a second striker to an extent off the wing, being a goal threat. His admiration for Sneijder is self explanatory, no need to even touch on that. He's said Deco and Sneijder are the best CAM's for him. He had Zanetti as defensive cover and two extremely good CB's and had Maicon playing with almost no restriction as an added offensive threat. It was extremely solid defensively, yet was technical and strong on the break.
For arguments sake, let's assume it wasn't an ideal Jose team - for it to then stump Pep's greatest ever achievement (that Barca side) is even more impressive of a feat. If he can manage to stump Pep's best ever team, with a team that isn't even ideal for him, what's to suggest he couldn't stump a team that isn't nowhere near as good as his Barca team (albeit still very good) if he was to have his ideal squad?
Also the majority of their head to heads were in Spain. Pep had the best team of all time, he's yet to replicate creating a team anywhere near dominant to that, so no, it's not as clear cut as saying Pep's squads will get the better of his in the long run. He's yet to even win a CL outside Barca, let alone dominate. Could they get the better of Jose's squad? Certainly. Is it guaranteed? Hardly.
Pep's style is vunerable to Counter-attacks, he's suggested as much himself. It's one of the drawbacks of camping all your players in the opponent's half and retaining possession. Jose's teams at their best are absolutely ruthless at counter-attacking, so it's not nearly as straight-forward as you suggest.
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See this is something I cannot agree with. A lot fans keep comparing us to Pep and the guys on the other side of the field, like myself, will keep arguing that we're not at that level and haven't been for a long time. Just have a look at a comparison of City vs United over the past few seasons (since City won their first league title):
United: 2nd
City: 1st
Difference: 0
United: 1st
City: 2nd
Difference: +9
United: 7th
City: 1st
Difference: -22
United: 4th
City: 2nd
Difference: -9
United: 5th
City: 4th
Difference: 0
United: 6th
City: 3rd
Difference: -9
We've been living in their shadows for four seasons, and, of the last 6, we've finished above them a mighty one time and that was down to two men.
I won't sit here a claim to know what Citys plan has been over these 6 seasons - as to whether they've always been laying the foundations for Pep but I know that we have had no plan, no identity and no philosophy for a long time. My issue is how quickly people forget the joke we had become for the three seasons before Mourinho joined. Have people forgotten the Moyes season where WBA, Newcastle, Everton all recorded their first victories at OT in the premier league era? Or the regular thrashings by any top 6 team?
The first LvG season was a mixed bag, embarrassed by MK Dons, Leicester, Southampton, WBA and others. Somehow we found some performance enhancing drugs that saw us win six on the trot (twice in the season) with victories over Pool, Arsenal, City, Spurs and others to just cement a place in the top 4.
Season 15/16 was almost worse than 13/14 - the FA Cup victory papered over what was a horrendous campaign. Knocked out of the CL by a terrible set of teams, failing to score in at least 10 first halves at OT in the PL, losses to Bournemouth, Norwich, Stoke, Southampton, WBA, Sunderland, failing to win a single game in December, falling from 2nd to 6th in just one month, consistently boring throughout the season, 49 fecking goals in 38 PL games...
What I feel you simply fail to understand or seemingly refuse to is the mess that LvG and Moyes left at United. feck the top 6, check our record against the bottom 6. Have people forgotten how the worst teams in the league, and even those from lower leagues, used to play at OT? With no fear. In the three seasons before Mourinho, we had 12 losses at OT in the PL; We've had 2 losses since he joined. Bar maybe a few of the top teams, no one comes to OT expecting to win as they did previously. Contrary to popular belief, we're also very good going forward and this is easily our best season in terms of goals. Not only this, we're also one of the best defensive teams in Europe and this is because our defenders actually know how to defend.
I'm not sure about Mourinhos future here, but what I do know and completely understand is how he steadied a ship that looked to be sinking only two years ago. We're competing on all fronts, and whilst we're a still behind City, in one season, Mourinho has taken us above every other PL team. Klopp, Poch, Wenger and Conte have been left behind in our resurgence and that's something people seem to not want to acknowledge.
I hear that. I just don't think he is going go get the 'perfect' set of players to counter (no pun) Pep sides effectively.
I agree with the majority of this, and I've definitely acknowledged what Mourinho has done up until now elsewhere. Disagree on LvG leaving us in a mess, as he did leave the foundation of a good side with loads of promising young players and was the reason we have our 2 most promising players right now with Martial and Rashford. His football was beyond boring and the league results in the 2nd season were shit with all the draws, but he wasn't a disaster and definitely helped steady the ship and get us on the right track in a lot of ways. Definitely had to go though.
Mourinho in his 1.5 seasons has done close to what I've expected from him, in that he turned us back into a big side which is where we belong, especially with the spending power he has. My issue with him and why I'm not super optimistic about his long term future is that given almost endless spending power, hes chosen to build a team that stifles rather then dominates and ignored some quality players in favor of physical players who aren't working out. You look at the teams with the biggest spending powers in their league's, who don't have to worry about finding bargains and all that - Bayern in Germany, PSG in France, barca and Real Madrid in Spain, City and United in England. Italy is a weird one where none of them really have that spending power consistently so I'll leave them out. But of that list, they all play a very similar style. They attack against pretty much everyone, always look to dominate games and impose themselves on the opposition, because they have the endless funds to build a dominant team so they believe they can build a better team then the others. All of them, except United, because Mourinho has chosen the approach that someone like Simeone has done at Atletico, to build a defensive monster to shut down barca and madrid in order to compete with them since he can't normally with a big mismatch in funds available. That's the main issue. His ambition despite unlimited funds almost was only to be a team that stifles and not one that dominates in the biggest of games.
And then leading off that issue, Ok, Mourinho is who he is. Then build towards that, but players that can be that great team at shutting teams out, soaking up pressure and then counter attacking devastatingly. You know what we are in big games though? We can't soak up any bit of pressure without leaking chances, and our counter attacking game is mostly shit. He bought a striker that isnt suited to that style since he has no hold up play and sucks in the air so cant bring down long balls, he didnt even go for a right winger yet to actually have someone on the right who can counter attack effectively, up u til recently he kept our best runner with the ball (martial) out of the side for too long, nd those players are very necessary to counter attack properly, and then in midfield, he's playing Pogba in a 2 meaning that he's either restricting pogba in the big games by not freeing him up, or leaving our midfield too easily overrun by having Matic the only one to cover for Pogba when he tries to counter attack since we can't hold the ball without him or martial.
So basically - I dont think that Mourinho was ambitious enough, starting from a clean slate in the side he could build and it'll keep us firmly below the top tier of sides like psg, city, madrid, Bayern and barca. Of course we can cause upsets, and maybe even win the big trophies. But the difference is we'll always be the underdogs for that, when really our spending could have seen us been one of the favourites.
And then 2, if he really wants that defensive monster, his signings haven't reflected that at all.
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