You're better off not paying attention to such posts. It's funny that majority of the posters that hurl insults on the CAF are the one who get agitated when their precious José is poked with some candy floss.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
- Thread starter Suedesi
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Who says what we're capable of though? Thats exactly what I'm talking about, we've gone from being realistic because of our form to again demanding we're the best and any time we don't show that there's moaning. That in itself shows how far we've come but the lack of any positivity is still shocking.
Fergie was one of the best managers in the game and we still had people questioning his tactics, his coaching staff, his selections everything repeatedly. Its fineto be criticial but i wish they'd be at least some level of appreciation
Yeah it's not a problem, would just be nice to have some debate rather than name-calling.
It'd be great if you actually criticized him instead of shouting belligerently at how disgraceful and embarrassing he is.
I've not seen you give one criticism that goes past 'play more attacking, play more positive, stop playing hoofball'. None of these are criticisms they are just statements with no substance.
Personnel changes, phases of play, tactical briefs. I've not seen anyone (except Home&Away, but he is a bit obsessed with LVG) go into detail about these things.
Agree with you there
You don't think we're capable of doing any better than we did at weekend? That was the best performance, the best possible approach these players could muster?
Nobody's moaning because we aren't the best. This is a fiction. Like I've said to every other poster who spreads this fiction show us the posts. Show us the posts that claim we should be the best and complaints that we aren't. Nobody has come up with these posts as yet.
Ok, here are some things I'd like to see:
1. Encourage the defenders not to lump the ball aimlessly at every opportunity.
2. Stop throwing on big lads (Fellaini and Ibra) when we're chasing the game as they generally make things worse, not better.
3. Try Rashford CF with Martial on the left wing, putting Lukaku on the bench.
4. Try winning the ball back higher up the pitch rather than sitting deep and isolating the attack.
Is that substantive enough?
And I never he said he was disgraceful and embarrassing, I just said the football was bad to watch. Not quite the same thing, are they?
A poster fabricating opinions to defend the manager? Who'd have though it.
Just as expected all Mou haters have a field day after the loss. Has anyone honestly expected us to win PL this year after we failed to reach TOP 4 in 3 of the last 4 seasons and was basically 6th best team in England? TOP 3 was a realistic target and we are currently 2nd having a best start since SAF, City are on track to win ~110 points so nobody could challenge them for a title. Some are even suggesting LVG was better? You forget very quickly how shite we were. We have made a very good progress since he took over having not the best squad. No LB, massively overrated RB who hasn't made an assist in 10 years and contributes nothing in attack (except winning a couple corners per game), no RW and only 1 CM who is missing most of this season. City were a much better team when Pep took over, same as Conte with Chelsea, we were all over the place.1. Defenders did not lump the ball aimlessly at every opportunity, this was only the case for Rojo in the first 30-40 mins. Once city scored we showed much more composure on the ball meaning it was less the tactical instruction and more our players needing to wake up. In the second half when Lindelof came on, there were many passes that were hitting our forwards on the ground. Lukaku and Lingard gestured to Rojo many times to pass on the ground to the midfielders, which indicates this was not a tactical instruction but a failing of duties by Rojo. The fact that Rojo was taken off at half time also indicates that the manager was not happy with his execution of his tactics. If you criticize the manager for picking Rojo in the first place then that is fair.
2. The manager didn't just throw on the big lads, he bought on Mata to find the big lads. The fact that Ibra and Mata were both critical to our best chance of the game suggests that the substitutions were not horrible. What changes would you have made?
3. I can't take this suggestion seriously. If anything Martial as CF is the much more reasonable suggestion since he is in good form. Rashford as CF is one of those desperation suggestions, because it makes zero sense since he is clearly inferior in many aspects as a CF. Martial is technically better than Lukaku, so he can add a different aspect as a CF, Rashford doesnt bring anything new.
4. When we did try to press City just passed their way through our press. Liverpool and Napoli had some success with the press but they lost 5-0 and 4-2. So I'm not seeing a convincing argument for a high press.
I don't get this excuse of 'we didn't finish top 4 in such and such season so why are we expected to win the league' argument.
It's Manchester United, we should expect to win the league every season.
Leicester won the league after barely surviving relegation. Chelsea won the league after finishing mid table.
Given the investment we should be expected to challenge for the title this season.
It's Manchester United, we should expect to win the league every season.
Leicester won the league after barely surviving relegation. Chelsea won the league after finishing mid table.
Given the investment we should be expected to challenge for the title this season.
Erm we're 2nd in the league and topped our champions league group no? The moaning is exactly because we're not the best right now and we're not the best in every game. What are you confused by here?
Even on performance 95% of games we've been attacking but the pragmatic approach we've had to take in the couple of big games without Pogba is anything for hysterics.
Ok, let me have a go at it.
I think he handled the period of Pogba's absence poorly. There's no denying that Paul is essential to our build-up play when it comes to carrying the ball forward and connecting the defence with the midfield. He's also a very special player in the sense that he can provide something extraordinary out of the blue and help us get out of difficult situations. Without him we lose a lot in the midfield battle. Since there's no one with his vision, his skills on the ball and his creativity from deeper positions, i'd expect a shift in the build-up phase towards the wider areas. Push the FBs a bit higher up the pitch, deploy two attacking/creative players wide but behind the opposition midfield and don't be afraid to use the long diagonal (instead of hoofing the ball to Lukaku), so that they can find some space to operate into. Instead, we aimlessly overload the central channels with both Martial and Rashford (or Lingard in the 352) trying to find pockets of space in the half-spaces or dropping very deep to receive the ball since no one can deliver it to them. I'd also use one of Martial or Rashford as an auxiliary forward in a 442-ish formation. Basically, someone to play close to Lukaku and utilization of the wide areas to get the ball in the box. Stretch the pitch a bit instead of expecting Matic and Herrera to always find the right passes forward while being pressed.
Secondly, his dealings in the market are pretty much hit and miss bar Pogba and Matic. We still don't have a stable back four (which makes it difficult to train a routine of how to bypass high pressing), the gap between our first choice in the midfield (Pogba-Matic) and any other possible combination seems abysmal, it's the second season in a row we start with Mata and Miki as our primary creative options in the attacking half and they're not delivering the goods and we must be the only side in the world right now who play with an isolated out and out poacher up front. That's the kind of mess he's being paid to solve.
My main issue with his tactics in the big games is that we use long balls with the expecation that our players will win challenges and get first on the ball after the clearance in the areas behind the opposition's midfield and between the lines. It hasn't worked and i don't think it will since most managers are well prepared to face such a game plan. Pep even mentioned it in his presser after the match, that they expected they would have to win the second balls in their half of the pitch and he was ready for it.
I think he handled the period of Pogba's absence poorly. There's no denying that Paul is essential to our build-up play when it comes to carrying the ball forward and connecting the defence with the midfield. He's also a very special player in the sense that he can provide something extraordinary out of the blue and help us get out of difficult situations. Without him we lose a lot in the midfield battle. Since there's no one with his vision, his skills on the ball and his creativity from deeper positions, i'd expect a shift in the build-up phase towards the wider areas. Push the FBs a bit higher up the pitch, deploy two attacking/creative players wide but behind the opposition midfield and don't be afraid to use the long diagonal (instead of hoofing the ball to Lukaku), so that they can find some space to operate into. Instead, we aimlessly overload the central channels with both Martial and Rashford (or Lingard in the 352) trying to find pockets of space in the half-spaces or dropping very deep to receive the ball since no one can deliver it to them. I'd also use one of Martial or Rashford as an auxiliary forward in a 442-ish formation. Basically, someone to play close to Lukaku and utilization of the wide areas to get the ball in the box. Stretch the pitch a bit instead of expecting Matic and Herrera to always find the right passes forward while being pressed.
Secondly, his dealings in the market are pretty much hit and miss bar Pogba and Matic. We still don't have a stable back four (which makes it difficult to train a routine of how to bypass high pressing), the gap between our first choice in the midfield (Pogba-Matic) and any other possible combination seems abysmal, it's the second season in a row we start with Mata and Miki as our primary creative options in the attacking half and they're not delivering the goods and we must be the only side in the world right now who play with an isolated out and out poacher up front. That's the kind of mess he's being paid to solve.
My main issue with his tactics in the big games is that we use long balls with the expecation that our players will win challenges and get first on the ball after the clearance in the areas behind the opposition's midfield and between the lines. It hasn't worked and i don't think it will since most managers are well prepared to face such a game plan. Pep even mentioned it in his presser after the match, that they expected they would have to win the second balls in their half of the pitch and he was ready for it.
Calm down captain America.
I think you're confused as you've got the argument all wrong. Nobody is demanding we should be first. Again show me all these posts demanding we should be? Every single person who claims this to be a popular opinion can never produce posts to back it up. Why's that?
The argument is that we're unnecessarily handicapping ourselves by taking such a negative approach in some games. It's dead simple.
You didn't answer the question either. Do you think that was the best we could manage at the weekend? Are these players not capable of giving City a better game than we did?
Yes, I can...until Guardiola decides he wants to manage in France and then Jose will move on. The cycle will repeat ad infinitum. The only manager who can consistently beat Mourinho is Pep. Mourinho is an incredibly sore loser who can't take the competition.
Very good point but I think we already did that when Fellaini was fit. We crossed a lot in the box and had both Lukaku and Fellaini jumping on every cross so that one of them score. That's how we got past Sep without much problems.
Problems arose more when Fellaini got injured as well, putting that solution to rest. After he got injured we had no threat from crosses as Lukaku is always isolated in the box against defenders. Fellaini provided extra body for defenders to worry about when we stretch the play and make a cross, without it was Lukaku and only Lukaku to receive the cross.
Interesting post.
Can’t disagree with him on the last point though. Some of us clearly don’t deserve to support United.
I for one look forward to the entry exam (closed-book you chancers) for new supporters.
Mourinho is an incredibly sore loser but the only time they managed in the same league it was Mourinho who stayed and Guardiola who left.
You really need to stop asking because such posts never existed. No one has yet to answer you, have they?
Guardiola needed a bloody year off.. Who does that after winning so much? If he had stayed at Barcelona he could have become GOAT.
Yeah, that's true to an extent. It's clear that we've missed Pogba for more games than we thought we would and Mourinho has said numerous times that he considers Fellaini as one of the main weapons of his "plan B". Right there, i agree, we are unfortunate. But i still think we choose to make it difficult for ourselves. You see, it's Pogba's overall quality and what he brings to the table combined with Mourinho's tendency to not overcommit players in the attacking half that creates the "not so pleasing" performances and results to fans moaning about our style.
But we are where we are atm and we have to play some very important matches without some very important players. It is my opinion that when you're missing key individuals whose quality is irreplaceable, it's better to gamble a bit with adding things to your attacking plan. In my opinion, many fans (not the pure Mourinho haters, they are a different story) are complaining about this. After all, we all (no matter what kind of football we prefer) grew up with a manager who was willing to take such risks. We didn't always have the quality to attack the way we wanted (quite often Carrington looked more like a hospital than a training centre), we often lacked options but we rarely lacked in attacking intent. And this made the times we actually played defensively (because there were these too) more easy to endure.
And it's not only about scoring popularity points with the fans. I don't think that Matic-Herrera trying to play forward passes towards Martial-Rashford in the half-spaces between the lines will get us anywhere while both FBs' starting positions are very deep. I understand the general idea of what he's trying to achieve, i can see where his signings have failed him and i can figure out why he's having difficulties with this squad. But in these games, without Pogba and Fellaini, i can't see how what he has in mind can work. Not at all.
Nothing much to disagree with that. You always need to tweak options and adapt when your first choice players aren't here and try to get the best of what you have till these players return.
I was all for Mourinho after Fergie, thinking he was the man to replace fergie. And for the most part, I've been pretty pleased with him. But an ever growing part of me is looking forward to when he leaves and is hopeful that we bring in a positive and proactive manager afterwards. Someone who can transform us into one of the best teams and have us play exciting football and look to dominate in every game.
Mourinho used to be a big game manager, but seeing him now, he doesn't have any attacking plan in the big games. Never will he look at a bit game and think that he should take the front foot from minute 1 and not needing to park the bus. His record in thethem over the past 2 years speaks volume tbh. Far from good enough. Before it used to be style doesn't matter in those games, only the result. But we don't even get results in them anymore. Literally just wait to lose then blame it on a lack of quality/spending/referees/whatever. Not the case. I'm convinced that even if he was in charge of Barca 2011, he'd play negatively in things like the champions league final and make them a counter attacking side. It doesn't matter who he buys, how players develop, how much money he can spend, he'll never be a manager who builds towards building a team that can dominate in a set style every game, and force others to adapt to him like Pep has with City.
Obviously everyone adapts a little. But we go from dominating small teams to looking like the small team against shite like arsenal or Liverpool, let alone City. And that's really frustrating especially when player for player we have better players. Put Guardiola in charge with the same group of players (minus lukaku) and you know he'd have us dominating away to those teams and not parking the bus. So it's not a case of personnel. It just leaves you feeling pessimistic about further improvement. We won the Europa league, great. Might even win the title one of these years, but over a 5 year span of Pep at City and Mou at United, I'd be hopeful for 1 title while they'd probably win 3. And as for champions league titles, well pep has transformed City into looking like one of the favourites despite not having one of the top 5 players in the world in his side. While we are huge underdogs and will rely on a lot of luck to get there. And that's something I don't think will ever change with Mourinho. He won't build a team that can be the best team, but rather buy big players who can counter act the rest. I mean ffs we have loads of talent in our squad yet fall to complete shit the second Pogba gets injured and just rely on long balls to lukaku or fellaini to open teams up. Or need Martial/rashford to dribble past like 3 players because they start so deep. And that's not what I want to see from a Manchester United side.
So yeah. Mourinho is a good manager of course and has turned us into a competitive team, but I really doubt there's much scope for improvement with him. He'll never build a team that is better then a Pep side over an extended period of time, or one that can even be on par and be equally feared. So that's why I'm looking forward to when he leaves and hopefully having a manager with a set attacking, dominant style to build towards.
Mourinho used to be a big game manager, but seeing him now, he doesn't have any attacking plan in the big games. Never will he look at a bit game and think that he should take the front foot from minute 1 and not needing to park the bus. His record in thethem over the past 2 years speaks volume tbh. Far from good enough. Before it used to be style doesn't matter in those games, only the result. But we don't even get results in them anymore. Literally just wait to lose then blame it on a lack of quality/spending/referees/whatever. Not the case. I'm convinced that even if he was in charge of Barca 2011, he'd play negatively in things like the champions league final and make them a counter attacking side. It doesn't matter who he buys, how players develop, how much money he can spend, he'll never be a manager who builds towards building a team that can dominate in a set style every game, and force others to adapt to him like Pep has with City.
Obviously everyone adapts a little. But we go from dominating small teams to looking like the small team against shite like arsenal or Liverpool, let alone City. And that's really frustrating especially when player for player we have better players. Put Guardiola in charge with the same group of players (minus lukaku) and you know he'd have us dominating away to those teams and not parking the bus. So it's not a case of personnel. It just leaves you feeling pessimistic about further improvement. We won the Europa league, great. Might even win the title one of these years, but over a 5 year span of Pep at City and Mou at United, I'd be hopeful for 1 title while they'd probably win 3. And as for champions league titles, well pep has transformed City into looking like one of the favourites despite not having one of the top 5 players in the world in his side. While we are huge underdogs and will rely on a lot of luck to get there. And that's something I don't think will ever change with Mourinho. He won't build a team that can be the best team, but rather buy big players who can counter act the rest. I mean ffs we have loads of talent in our squad yet fall to complete shit the second Pogba gets injured and just rely on long balls to lukaku or fellaini to open teams up. Or need Martial/rashford to dribble past like 3 players because they start so deep. And that's not what I want to see from a Manchester United side.
So yeah. Mourinho is a good manager of course and has turned us into a competitive team, but I really doubt there's much scope for improvement with him. He'll never build a team that is better then a Pep side over an extended period of time, or one that can even be on par and be equally feared. So that's why I'm looking forward to when he leaves and hopefully having a manager with a set attacking, dominant style to build towards.
He'd have been better of leaving himself considering how appalling that third season went in Madrid.
I don't find it that odd myself, it is obvious that he is extremely invested in his job and compulsively attentive to small details which can probably be draining in the long run. I'd guess he will have another 3-4 year stint after City and then call it quits.
He still didn't leg it because Guardiola got the better of him did he? If anything Mourinho seems to enjoy the competition - hence hot footing it to Manchester while in full possession of the knowledge that it would be Guardiola setting up sticks across the city. For all his faults dodging professional challenges doesn't seem part of Mourinho's repertoire.
bosnian_red said:
I think you nailed it on the head, he's so defensive in big games these days its pretty much embarrassing, that performence against city there is no words to describe how much it sums up the football we are playing under Mourinho, and we have seen what will happen in the CL, we will be underdogs, scared to even attack big sides and try and use luck to beat the best sides, city totally different ball game. In 2 years what have we seen from pep and jose, the former has evolved a football team that will attack anyone home or away, the latter has been given time with a few trophys and has transformed a team into an expensive mediocre footballing side that has no football DNA other than keep it tight against the big sides, you score first against a Jose Mourinho side these days they will never win the game. We don't dominate football sides, we need a hell of allot of luck and that is never the foundations for success. It does not matter home or away man city will attack.
Pep does not show respect to any team, because he wants his teams to win, Jose Mourinho is so obsessed about how teams play he forgets to build a side who can beat anyone, and that is the difference between the 2. One is a positive manager who wants his players to kill sides off, the other has his sides so scared to attack the big teams, he wants his teams organized and never play to kill. I be very surprised if if we ever win PL or CL under Mourinho, he failed it at Madrid who had a far superior team to us. If I was one of the big sides drawing united would not worry me that much
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Pretty much
Great post. Like you said I don't believe City have better players than us. The only players that would improve us from their team are KDB and Silva. It's the coaching from Guardiola that's making all the difference. The sad thing is that Guardiola is the only manager that Mourinho has struggled with the most in his career. Mourinho stands above all the other managers in the PL but he is second best to Guardiola. It's very sad. Both managers arrived at the same time and both have been backed in the transfer window. We've spent basically the same amount of money, I think city have spent 42 million more. That's the price of Bernardo Silva who can't even get into the City line up. On Sunday the difference between the two teams was incredible, more than the effect of just 1 player. Why can't we play any decent football without Pogba? United have never ever been 1 man team yet we fall to pieces if Pogba doesn't play. Rashford and Martial would be tearing it up with Pep. You'd never seem them tracking back to the corner flag of our own half like we do now. It's very frustrating because he is holding us back in an attacking sense and that's why we are behind City. We are above the rest of the other teams because our superior defending is enough. Arsenal, Liverpool and the others will never compete with us in the long term whilst Jose is here because they aren't good enough defensively. To compete with Pep and City we need more in attack and I don't think Mourinho can take us forward in that regard.
CSKA scored first, United won.
Your argument here is null and void. Jose is defensive in the big games when he doesn’t have his one & only creative player in the midfield.
Pogba has only played 1 big game(vs Arsenal) this season and we all know what happened in that game. Even when it looked like Arsenal were going to equalise, United went forward & completely killed the game.
In case you & your cohorts haven’t got the memo, you need your big players for the big games. In their absence, you are bound to struggle. If KDB were to be absent in 4 of the 5 big games City have played so far, Man City would have struggled as well.
Wouldn't go that far. De Bruyne, Jesus/Aguero, Mendy, Sane or sterling (on the right) would all easily start. Wouldn't take Silva over Pogba, Walker/Valencia is a toss up, but saying that, we still have a good side and have the players to replicate it.
Or Silva would have stepped up. Its like you ignore the fact Agureo didn't even make it off the bench and they had Fernandinho playing CB for part of the game. Lost their no1 CB at half time too.
I found it funny, when the team was announced, so many people thought, finally we are gonna go attacking in the big team. Mourinho could have De Gea and 10 attacking players and he would still be ultra defensive in the big game. That's just how he is, and he won't change ever. And I honestly won't mind it.
Pogba has missed 4 of the big games and we have been mostly shit. Against Arsenal, with him, we played some scintillating counter-attacking stuff. He for sure would have made a huge difference in the missed big games. Even Fellaini was missed. And I doubt Jose foresaw the immense Herrera regression.
For 10 games a season, United will be defensive and for 28 we will be attacking with Jose at the helm.
I think United supporters should keep the faith in Jose and ED should be supporting Jose more, he should have got the Perisic signing wrapped up.
Pogba has missed 4 of the big games and we have been mostly shit. Against Arsenal, with him, we played some scintillating counter-attacking stuff. He for sure would have made a huge difference in the missed big games. Even Fellaini was missed. And I doubt Jose foresaw the immense Herrera regression.
For 10 games a season, United will be defensive and for 28 we will be attacking with Jose at the helm.
I think United supporters should keep the faith in Jose and ED should be supporting Jose more, he should have got the Perisic signing wrapped up.
Take KDB out and they still play the same style though. Also yeah Pogba only played the one big game this season. But while our counter attack was better in that game because of arsenal's trash defence, our performance still definitely was not a good performance, with the amount of chances we gave away. On another day, Arsenal could've scored 5 or more even. De Gea saving us is not a good tactic, at all. I agree that Pogba changes a lot when he's in. But Mourinho still goes defensive. He still doesn't try to dominate games, because that's not him. Whatever, but then build a team that can be that defensive beast and not leak chances and lose any composure the second we are put under the slightest bit of pressure. Either build a team that can dominate with the ball or build a team that can dominate without it consistently. Don't play one way against the bottom half teams and then expect the players to effectively park the bus all of a sudden against any decent team (most that they are very capable of going out and dominating with the ball as well).
Basically sums up my feelings about him and the progress he's made. Funny how much of our fanbase are in delusion and denial regarding the quality of our team and players.
Those most responsible for our current situation are the Glazers together with Fergie. Not one sane person would sell one of the greatest players in history and replace him with a winger from Wigan, a broken Owen and Obertan. That's where our demise started.
Jose arrived to a club with the highest revenues in football but without one worldclass player in the squad. That's not his fault.
Those most responsible for our current situation are the Glazers together with Fergie. Not one sane person would sell one of the greatest players in history and replace him with a winger from Wigan, a broken Owen and Obertan. That's where our demise started.
Jose arrived to a club with the highest revenues in football but without one worldclass player in the squad. That's not his fault.
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What would Perisic have changed? Our best performing players this season have been Ashley Young at left wing back when playing the 3-5-2 or Martial/Rashford at left wing. Perisic would have just played instead of them and gotten in the way of their development (for the youngsters).
And that Silva example simply tells you Guardiola inherited more quality players than Jose. If only one player can make our win % drop from 87 to 40, then there are far more issues in the squad than criticising Jose’s approach.
City lost their no1 CB at half time? We didn’t have our best 2CBs kicking a ball throughout the game. These little details also matter in big games. Bailly/Jones would have defended better than the reserve defenders Jose was forced to play in the Derby game.
Personally I think that Jose had a massive rebuilding job when he took over United. He had much more to fix than Pep at City. He inherited a much weaker squad. He has then gone through most of this season without his best 2 players (Zlatan and Pogba) out of an already weaker squad which he inherited from LVG.
Don't get me wrong, I don't especially like the defensive/counter attacking tactic in big games but he is pragmatic and can get results. He was beaten last weekend by a Pep team which has spent more money and already had a title challenging squad when Pep took over, as a pose to ours which had finished 7th, 4th and 5th. He also won two trophies last season and we are currently 2nd in the league. We need this context when talking about his performances imo.
The key question for those criticising Jose is - who in World Football do you think could do any better? Who could replace him and do a better job?
Don't get me wrong, I don't especially like the defensive/counter attacking tactic in big games but he is pragmatic and can get results. He was beaten last weekend by a Pep team which has spent more money and already had a title challenging squad when Pep took over, as a pose to ours which had finished 7th, 4th and 5th. He also won two trophies last season and we are currently 2nd in the league. We need this context when talking about his performances imo.
The key question for those criticising Jose is - who in World Football do you think could do any better? Who could replace him and do a better job?
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