I don't disagree that City's squad is superior to ours, but I wouldn't say those 3 "walk" into our first XI. I think people's perceptions of Sterling's and Sane's natural abilities are distorted by their performances in Pep's system, which has greatly elevated them. In terms of raw talent I'd put Martial on par with Sane at least and ahead of Sterling. Rashford shouldn't be too far behind Sterling. And Sanchez in theory is better than all three City players you mentioned.
José Mourinho | 2018/19 Performances
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I don't disagree that City's squad is superior to ours, but I wouldn't say those 3 "walk" into our first XI. I think people's perceptions of Sterling's and Sane's natural abilities are distorted by their performances in Pep's system, which has greatly elevated them. In terms of raw talent I'd put Martial on par with Sane at least and ahead of Sterling. Rashford shouldn't be too far behind Sterling. And Sanchez in theory is better than all three City players you mentioned.
I'd put the bolded bit down to the lack of coaching in attacking patterns, which Jose is known for.
Sterling is so underrated that it's not even funny he is probably most talented among all the names you have mentioned, Rashford is no where near Sterling in terms of natural talent and other two would have done really well if they go on to have better career than Sterling.
Sorry, I don't rate Sterling very highly, and I think Rashford won't be inferior. Obviously Sterling is performing much better at the moment though.
Edited upon further consideration.
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Sterling was great for Liverpool in probably their best season of the past 8 years or though. City didn't pay 50m for him for nothing. He's underrated because his finishing is erratic and some times comical, but otherwise, great wing player who helps everyone around him.
Sane is also far better than Martial imo it's not even a question. Credit for Pep should be for choosing to sign and play him regularly but saying he makes him punch over his weight is not true at all. He's better and more energetic than Martial. Martial may be able to dribble past defenders more but I'll take who keeps running and making difference all the game over a static player who appears with a moment of brilliance through the 90 minutes any time.
Yes , this worries me more than anything. When a successful manager who's won at every club he's managed says that taking us to second was the most difficult thing he's ever done , it speaks volumes about the state of the club. Bad decision after bad decision has pushed us into this state. We got to get the next appointment right else we'd be doomed for a decade.
I don't need to see Jones/Smalling in a high line to know how horrendous it would be, there's a reason no manager has ever even tried it.
Yes Mourinho should have been able to beat Brighton with our squad but he's ultimately not judged on beating them he's judged on league position and trophies. When he finishes 2nd he get's slaughtered despite being at such a huge disadvantage.
He got Sanchez and plays him inhis best position, he's been good for us in many of the big games last season were we beat all of the top 6 after his arrival. There's no revisionism.
The attacking play has been poor because the attackers have been poor, ancient ibra + Rooney along with Lingard/Rashford/Mata isn't playing scintillating football under any manager at any club. He's brought in Lukaku/Sanchez and wanted a right winger which the board denied him.
I understand Mourinho isn't here for the long term but I'm also realistic about the talent levels of the guys currently here. We aren't competing for any major titles with Mata/Lingard/Pereira/Rashford/Lindelof/Smalling/Jones getting loads of minutes.
The problem with your line of thinking is that you think that any manager hired will be the same as our last 3 hirings. It happened with all 3 of those guys, because they've all had one thing in common. Conservatism. They just approached it in different ways. LVG sought to limit the other team through possession, but in attack there was no freedom allowed. United struggled to create chances under him due to this. Under Mourinho, the attack has complete freedom, but the players must always be aware to remain compact or remain conscious of their defensive responsibility. Now that doesn't sound like a bad thing, but if all he preaches is defensive awareness and doesn't coach the attack much, players will naturally be reluctant to attack. To top it off, he always sets out United to be reactionary.
Either way, both of them scream conservatism. Both of them failed to coach United in a way that maximizes creating chances.
Fans aren't necessarily or rather, weren't necessarily against that kind of football. However, results were a must. If the football was entertaining, fans would have more patience for these managers. We can't ignore that. Why do you think Liverpool fans are behind their manager? Even if they don't get results, they like their football and are entertained. They see progress on the pitch and thus are more patient for results to follow.
United need to hire a progressive manager who prioritizes attacking football. United fans will be more patient in that approach. I do agree that we need a DOF that believes in that so that even if the next manager gets to a point where the results aren't enough, the next guy we bring in has that same kind of vision more or less for the team. Right now the club is following Fergie's speech to a tee. "Stand behind your manager." We let the manager decide everything and we're slow to bin them off for that very same reason. To top it off, there is no strategy behind the hirings other than, bring us back to the top. We hired LVG and Mou who are complete opposites in approach to conservative football. However, they had the power to do whatever they wanted which has obviously backfired.
Yes, I'm pretty sure the problem is far from being in the manager alone. I have never thought that also during Moyes and LVG reign. The easiest thing is throw the full blame on the manager, either LVG or Mourinho and convince ourselves they're the main culprit and everything will be fine once they get replaced, because manager is the easiest person in a football club to be chopped and replaced, so it's easier to throw full blame on him instead of looking at the rotten core or some others who will never leave despite being the reason for this complete mess of a club.
The next manager will follow exactly the same route as Mourinho and LVG and you'll see, you know why ?
Because all our managerial appointments are all based on panic decisions without thinking 2 times on what they're going to do once they get the job. Because we have zero vision on how to build a proper football team and are just spending money on marketable players that we don't know where they'll play while we're ignoring obvious weak points in the squad that were present through 3 managers in a row and still not addressed. Because we have zero plan or project for a future, while the other clubs around us have certain plan and enter the market looking for the players they need not the biggest names, and their managerial appointments are all well thought and prepared for not chosen based on the CEO panic.
Hiring LVG was a panic decision because the initial plan with Moyes failed, and hiring Mourinho was a panic decision after LVG sudden turn out to the worst in his second season. Hiring Zidane will also be yet another panic decision after Mourinho failure in his 3rd season. Nothing screams of proper planning or good criteria for changing managers. We're just looking at who is available and get him. That's all.
SAF was the one organizing every thing for the club, literally everything and post him we have zero brain.
Can you tell me what was the plan for the team rebuild once Moyes failed and got sacked ? What if Mourinho hadn't fallen out with Chelsea and had stayed there when LVG was having his crisis here ? Would have kept LVG till now or what ? Tell me what was Ed's vision of the team when he sacked Moyes.
Nothing is the answer for me.
It won't be the same because ZZ plays a style people like and as a human being he's liked. That means a lot and will buy him the time he needs to change us providing he keeps us top 4 during his reign and does not sell Le God Martial
Ah yes. I see. So what’s JM ever done to you then that you don’t “like him as a human being?”
Just opened the BBC football and had a short shock when I read "Man United Sack Mourinho..."
I misread "Man United Back Mourinho..."
I misread "Man United Back Mourinho..."
Mahrez and Sterling would easily play RW for us and you could debate Sane would play either wing for us. It's easily debatable to be fair, but that's my opinion.
Martial was doing in his first season exactly what sane has done. Only difference is he had a manager who let him go and play.
I think Jose will walk by Christmas.
Look at Sane for Germany. The coaching and the team makes a huge difference.
I’m fully behind this could see what was being worked on/Direction but I just don’t think even with that a manager will be given the time, and the way the league is currently top 4 is not a guarantee. So I think we’ll get a lot of people turn quickly, hopefully I’m wrong but I don’t have faith.
I felt LVG did have a direction and at the very end we started to see it more but for me that team always needed someone like a Pogba to make the decisions and take responsibility in midfield as that seemed to be a huge issue, no one would take responsibility to make anything happen and it became just constant circulating of the ball other than the fast passing to force mistakes in the opposition to exploit. Being completely honest I was alright with giving him another year as well I thought he was going somewhere but I really don’t see that with Jose and even if he is trying to play counter attacking football there are so many fundamental flaws in his set up it’s like the guy isn’t a world class coach who has won titles everywhere. I just can’t get my mind around some of his decisions and his “philosophy”
Exactly. There's a big difference between a player who is clearly playing with freedom and a player that is thinking about every touch and pass and movement they make just in case they get it wrong.
He's not going to walk away from a £15m a year contract.
Hello from France (CANTONAAAAA ) dear forum, did you realize that Mourhino, managed to divide the fans just on his person? no team can win with so much negativity.
From my distant point of view (from France) I think that mourhino's work is finished since last season (at least). he did his best, > to give back the meaning of the victory to the players, the staff etc. Not acting as a simple official ( >Moyes) is already a victory.
His limits are reached, his management, his interviews (in which no compliment comes without a spade on another player...), his way to always blame the fault like an old man embittered ...
From my point of view (and only!) If he don't know how to manage young people and if he doesn't stay long in a club, it's simply because he don't develop a game philosophy with a group spirit. Each time, he builds on the achievements of his predecessors. he never speaks of football, but of "personal limits", of "thirst for victory", of "crushing the "other" ... A young player (like martial, rashford and the others before), he needs to be inspired. Last week, when he was talking about the youth of the A-team academy, I felt that his speech was completely written and telegraphed by his management, in addition to rewriting recent history (Rashford and Mctominay)
His speech works very well with the oldest, who have already experienced victory, and looking to reconnect with (young, lingardin a certain way, Matic, Sanchez etc). Also, I think what he creates in a locker room is lugubrious and macabre,by in the opposition he creates between the players.
It gives me the impression of a sick, embittered and manipulative brain.
Just for the note : I want to compare Van Gaal and Mourhino: The record of VG is terrible, but in detail (and it's important), at one point, they are 4th, and VG loses all his team on injury (I rarely seen such a hecatomb), from this, comes the fall. It was a static game, sometimes strange, but there was a facup and very beautiful goals. And i have to admit (cant believe what I am goinf to write) that is was better than last two/three years.
Manchester united needs more than anger and opposition to become a giant again.
Big apologize for my horrible english
) dear forum, did you realize that Mourhino, managed to divide the fans just on his person? no team can win with so much negativity.From my distant point of view (from France) I think that mourhino's work is finished since last season (at least). he did his best, > to give back the meaning of the victory to the players, the staff etc. Not acting as a simple official ( >Moyes) is already a victory.
His limits are reached, his management, his interviews (in which no compliment comes without a spade on another player...), his way to always blame the fault like an old man embittered ...
From my point of view (and only!) If he don't know how to manage young people and if he doesn't stay long in a club, it's simply because he don't develop a game philosophy with a group spirit. Each time, he builds on the achievements of his predecessors. he never speaks of football, but of "personal limits", of "thirst for victory", of "crushing the "other" ... A young player (like martial, rashford and the others before), he needs to be inspired. Last week, when he was talking about the youth of the A-team academy, I felt that his speech was completely written and telegraphed by his management, in addition to rewriting recent history (Rashford and Mctominay)
His speech works very well with the oldest, who have already experienced victory, and looking to reconnect with (young, lingardin a certain way, Matic, Sanchez etc). Also, I think what he creates in a locker room is lugubrious and macabre,by in the opposition he creates between the players.
It gives me the impression of a sick, embittered and manipulative brain.
Just for the note : I want to compare Van Gaal and Mourhino: The record of VG is terrible, but in detail (and it's important
), at one point, they are 4th, and VG loses all his team on injury (I rarely seen such a hecatomb), from this, comes the fall. It was a static game, sometimes strange, but there was a facup and very beautiful goals. And i have to admit (cant believe what I am goinf to write) that is was better than last two/three years.Manchester united needs more than anger and opposition to become a giant again.
Big apologize for my horrible english
Sane's last season is far better than Martial's best season here imo.
We'll soon find out how Jose is tactically without Rui Faria by his side.
aren't you tired to see us play like this? Supporters are fed up with this boredom, with the squad we have to challenge for 2nd place, our squad on paper is on par with anyone but city.
I don't see any way we could get less out of the players we have available than Mourinho is currently getting from them.
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You have to look at the context though, Jose is not the same manager. He's had some bad patches in recent years (caused by himself), and he's still struggling to come to terms with that. He's lost some of what made him 'special'. Therefore, it's no surprise the task feels harder than anything he's ever done.
Isn't that usually the kiss of death for managers?Just opened the BBC football and had a short shock when I read "Man United Sack Mourinho..."
I misread "Man United Back Mourinho..."
Damage control imo. If they backed him, they wouldn't have closed their cheque book.
No it wasn't. Martial had more goals and assists and also was just as damaging. Only thing is sane was in a great team. Whereas martial wasn't. Individually wise they had similar seasons.
I always back the manager, right up until the point of no return.
I'm still behind Mourinho at the moment, but the Brighton performance was the most concerned I've been since LvG was fired. It was shockingly bad.
If I see one more performance like that before October, I'd want him gone. We shouldn't be seeing repeat performances of that quality in the third season of a manager's tenure.
I'm still behind Mourinho at the moment, but the Brighton performance was the most concerned I've been since LvG was fired. It was shockingly bad.
If I see one more performance like that before October, I'd want him gone. We shouldn't be seeing repeat performances of that quality in the third season of a manager's tenure.
Might not have to wait that long...
We might beat Spurs (I actually can't see it at the moment), but then we'll go and play shit away to Burnley/Watford or whomever we play after.
I don't believe Jose lost it within what 2-3 years when he won title with Chelsea and then became our manager. Jose isn't the first manager to fail (to win big competitions) with us since SAF retired . There is definitely something wrong other than the manager at our club. I can't exactly pin point what it is , but until that is resolved , changing manager alone would probably put us in the same position. I don't know how many managers we need to sacrifice to accept this.
If you're going the routes of goals only why is everyone underrating Sterling when he has scored more goals than any City player bar Aguero ?
We'll have to agree to disagree because it's objective but for me Sane was better.
Basically fans only showing patience if you are winning, playing great football and lifting trophies. All 3 as well within 3 years. Not easy given the spending of everyone of our rivals is on par these days.
Not saying we don't have other issues at the club. However, Jose's lost it imho. I thought this as far back as the game between 10 man PSG and Chelsea in the CL. He was so set on not losing that they lost anyway (a bit like us at the moment). That mentality is due to a lack of confidence in his abilities. SAF didn't want to lose either, but he would throw the kitchen sink at the opposition to try and get a result.
Jose started going downhill after Madrid. It knocked his confidence and its carried on. He had one last hurrah with Chelsea when they won the title, but even then he looked unhappy, and although they started well, the second half of that season they were just hanging on. Luckily, they'd done enough in the first part of the season, and those points saw them over the finish line.
Also, you can't stay with a manager who has had his confidence knocked, regardless of the fact that we'd be binning our third manager in as many years. It's not good for the club.
However, we do need to have some long term planning in place irrespective of which manager we hire next. I do agree with you that other things need to be sorted out and that we won't be successful again unless we collectively get our shit together.
A well coached team of talented players will eventually win things.
But the Brighton performance betrayed a lack of good coaching.
And the transfer window demonstrated a failure to sign top talent.
Both Ed and Jose need to look at themselves.
But Mourinho is the one I'm most concerned about right now. Our squad cohesion has seemingly regressed, and that's inexcusable. No professional football team should ever play as disjointedly as we did at the weekend.
I can live with uninspiring football, and I can live without trophies. What I can't abide is a lack of professionalism.
As I said previously, another shit-on-stick game like the one we just witnessed, and I'd be happy to wash my hands of Mourinho. For what it's worth, I still think he's one of the best managers in the world. But so was Clough when he went to Leeds. You can't always predict perfect bedfellows.
I don't believe Jose has lost it, per se. He's just followed the wrong manager (LvG) with the wrong philosophy (passing for passing's sake) and teamed up with the wrong chairman (Woodward). Wherever he goes next, he'll probably win the league.
I'm still hopeful he can turn it around here, mind you. But the line in the sand is not too far away.
But the Brighton performance betrayed a lack of good coaching.
And the transfer window demonstrated a failure to sign top talent.
Both Ed and Jose need to look at themselves.
But Mourinho is the one I'm most concerned about right now. Our squad cohesion has seemingly regressed, and that's inexcusable. No professional football team should ever play as disjointedly as we did at the weekend.
I can live with uninspiring football, and I can live without trophies. What I can't abide is a lack of professionalism.
As I said previously, another shit-on-stick game like the one we just witnessed, and I'd be happy to wash my hands of Mourinho. For what it's worth, I still think he's one of the best managers in the world. But so was Clough when he went to Leeds. You can't always predict perfect bedfellows.
I don't believe Jose has lost it, per se. He's just followed the wrong manager (LvG) with the wrong philosophy (passing for passing's sake) and teamed up with the wrong chairman (Woodward). Wherever he goes next, he'll probably win the league.
I'm still hopeful he can turn it around here, mind you. But the line in the sand is not too far away.
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Jose has been a pragmatic manager in all his clubs. He plays a margin game and would try to tip the odds with a moment of brilliance. That's how he works. It usually works as he'd got a good squad or assembled one where ever he's been. Our case is quite different. We had an extremely unbalanced squad and high exceptions such as Giving youngsters a chance, playing attractive football vs effective football ect.. Our club has been a wrong fit for him IMO. Say if he'd got 2nd at Chelsea playing same football in his 3rd season there, he'd not have got the stick he's getting here. Also , Jose needs certain players to be successful. Once who make extremely good decisions, plays for the team/ dirty when required , one WC player and players with hight workrate. We don't tick several of those boxes. When you take him out of his familiar habitat and also shoot him with high expectations and curtail him on the transfer market , he struggles as expected. I still think he'd do really well with teams that arnt spoilt by attacking football, just not us.
I agree with you that we need a long term plan to get anywhere close to city. Our next manager appointment is going to be the most important decision that can either keep us relevant or not.
So movinh forward this season with Jose, what do we all reckon his ideal 11 would be if all fit/available?
......................DDG....................
Valencia...Bailly....Smalling...Shaw
..........Fred..........Matic.........
.................Pogba.................
Rashford................Sanchez
...............Lukaku................
......................DDG....................
Valencia...Bailly....Smalling...Shaw
..........Fred..........Matic.........
.................Pogba.................
Rashford................Sanchez
...............Lukaku................
Big Sam would have done better with this lot than Jose is doing now. That said we will probably beat Spurs in our next game. After all it is Tottenham. I think we need a nasty number two like Roy Keane who will put the fear of death into players like Pogba and the rest.
I just don’t understand what’s gone wrong with him. He’s won the CL with Inter and Porto. Without being disrespectful to them two teams we’re a much bigger club.
I remember his first stint at Chelsea and they were an excellent team. He defended his players to the hilt, and they would run through brick walls for him. There was a togetherness.
He had a cockiness and extreme self belief that he was the best. Now he just seems that he doesn’t what it anymore or has lost his mojo. He used to play 433 with pacey wingers and a strong striker. Where has the old Jose gone?
I remember his first stint at Chelsea and they were an excellent team. He defended his players to the hilt, and they would run through brick walls for him. There was a togetherness.
He had a cockiness and extreme self belief that he was the best. Now he just seems that he doesn’t what it anymore or has lost his mojo. He used to play 433 with pacey wingers and a strong striker. Where has the old Jose gone?
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I genuinely think the game has changed/evolved to the point where Mourinho's tried and trusted methods just aren't working. Its nothing new, we've seen it with lots of managers who were successful then weren't able to keep up as the game evolved. (wenger, LVG spring to mind immediately).
Just goes to show what a genius SAF was! Success over two decades...christ I miss that man
The [footballing] world has passed him by. He never adapted to the game as it changed.
Nowhere. Opponents simply got better at nullifying his teams' strengths and exploiting their weaknesses and academies are not producing as much of the type of players he used to rely on.
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