Who says we have to replace them with squaddies or even replace them at all? Rojo does not even need replacement as he barely features. If we sold two of them and got one very good player for any position how is that not better than having average players on the bench who don't improve the team earning good wages?
José Mourinho | 2018/19 Performances
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Who says we have to replace them with squaddies or even replace them at all? Rojo does not even need replacement as he barely features. If we sold two of them and got one very good player for any position how is that not better than having average players on the bench who don't improve the team earning good wages?
Because that one player could get injured, might not be able to fulfill a specific role etc. You need squaddies throughout the season.
Fellaini and Rojo are squaddies to who? Herrera and Jones/Smalling? Shouldn't we be trying to even replace them too? We're not trying to improve the average first teamers or their more more average squaddies, what the hell are we doing then?
I agree with you mate. Good point.
Fair observation. Pretty hard to argue against the notion that Jose at times manipulates the media and plays mind games. My concern was the idea that it's always all about him. We might be pretty wrong on that.
Whilst I agree the outlook is gloomy, what about all these great young players United supporters were talking up?
Are the likes of TFM, Pereira even Rashford now not considered good enough?
All I will say is while I am not positive about the situation, on or off the pitch, at all, it does have a feeling of 1995 and 2006 to it...
A bit too Optimistic this season will pan out like those but, ya never know.....Then again, we're talking about a group of players, who thought stopping City win the league against them was what it was all about
Probably just like SAF, he gets sentimental about players on the team and doesn't just want to throw them away. (oh, we weren't supposed to see this in a nice way because it's Jose?)
Already sick of his moaning and his miserable state and the seasons not even started, sigh.
I'm not saying he isn't pursuing anyone, it's obvious we want a CB. But we (seem to) have chosen not to go after any FBs. Big mistake imo. The best teams have very good fullbacks. We'll have mid-30 year old wingers as ours.
True, maybe no one does want them. Although Fellaini isn't an argument for that. We actively made a great effort to keep him.
This is our fault for paying average squad players £100k p/w. Also, many of those we want out have stunk out the place for years. Not all under Jose's tenure. But if we'd looked to get rid of Jones 2 years ago he mightve still had some value and other clubs may have been willing to take a chance.
Whilst I agree the outlook is gloomy, what about all these great young players United supporters were talking up?
Are the likes of TFM, Pereira even Rashford now not considered good enough?
All I will say is while I am not positive about the situation, on or off the pitch, at all, it does have a feeling of 1995 and 2006 to it...
A bit too Optimistic this season will pan out like those but, ya never know.....Then again, we're talking about a group of players, who thought stopping City win the league against them was what it was all about
I usually don't offer my opinion on United youth players so I don't get jumped on here. All the ones you listed there I think are all bang average players. I have a little hope on Perreira will turn out to be even decent but the rest of our current youth players I don't rate at all, including Rashford. Doesn't mean they can't play for us, they're supposed to be back ups for very good first team players,but then we've not even gotten the first team right. I don't know anymore man
Well if he's winning titles like Fergie I'm sure we won't care if he's fielding a team full of Bebe's, Obertan or water ducks. What a ridiculous post
His moaning and constant negativity is already grating. This cannot be good for the players.
Entertaining football is in vogue right now, every top side is good to watch. There’s no way our top players such as Pogba aren’t looking down the road at City or at Liverpool and aren’t a little bit envious of the progressive and exciting football they play. It’s been said enough times, but Mourinho’s brand of ‘kill the game’ football is only acceptable to both players and fans if the team is consistently winning the top prizes.
It’s not just due to Jose, but it’s quite depressingly ironic that we built a reputation under Fergie for being entertaining in almost every game, yet we are now one of the most boring teams to watch in the whole of world football. Despite all this, I’m not desperate for us to fire him, I don’t think it’s the right time for another upheaval right now, but I’m starting to feel we may have a rough season ahead.
Entertaining football is in vogue right now, every top side is good to watch. There’s no way our top players such as Pogba aren’t looking down the road at City or at Liverpool and aren’t a little bit envious of the progressive and exciting football they play. It’s been said enough times, but Mourinho’s brand of ‘kill the game’ football is only acceptable to both players and fans if the team is consistently winning the top prizes.
It’s not just due to Jose, but it’s quite depressingly ironic that we built a reputation under Fergie for being entertaining in almost every game, yet we are now one of the most boring teams to watch in the whole of world football. Despite all this, I’m not desperate for us to fire him, I don’t think it’s the right time for another upheaval right now, but I’m starting to feel we may have a rough season ahead.
That's not a few games, it's every team in the top 6. Posters like yourself where perfectly happy to slate Mourinho when his record vs the top 6 was poor in the early stages of his tenure but now claim it's a small sample size because it doesn't fit the agenda.
I can look beyond the premier league table and analyse why the club has been a shit show since Fergie left and it all goes back to a decade of almost zero investment, Rio/Scholes/Ronaldo got replaced with Smalling/Cleverly/Young. Just look at the clubs who came in for guys who were regulars in that side, Kagawa/Rafael/Evans/Cleverly/Nani and that's not even counting the guys on their last legs like Giggs/Scholes/Rio/Vidic/Berba.
The elite clubs we're expected to compete with have been going out every season and picking up world class players in key positions for huge money while we were handcuffed.
I don't know how many managers need to come through the door before you realise players>>>>>>>>>> managers by a distance.
Really good post with some excellent points regarding Klopp and Mourinho.
I get the impression that many on here would be happier if United were playing exciting attacking football, even if they weren't challenging for the Premier League or the Champions League.
The media are one animal in the equation but Mourinho has not helped himself during this pre-season. He gives them plenty of ammunition being a dour git and talking like a bloody robot at times.
Can't wait for the league to kick off so we can talk about competitive football again.
Can't wait for the league to kick off so we can talk about competitive football again.
Even Serie A, well known for defensive tactics are starting to like the press higher-passing game.
It would be better than not playing exciting attacking football and not challenging for the PL or CL.
Yes, it's a few games. It's a few games over a two year period that you selectively picked. And i HAVE given him credit for those results, but we'll just ignore that shall we; it wasn't the results that i was taking about. But, again, we'll just ignore that for your convenience. Also, posters like yourself are perfectly happy to ignore any sort of grievances others may have (even when they're completely legitimate) because it doesn't fit your agenda. See how easy it is to just dismiss someone like you do? Agenda? FFS.
And what's this "players>>>>>>>>>> managers" nonsense. He's had FIVE transfer windows (including this one). He's had plenty of opportunity to get his players in. Your making out that he's just joined this summer and it isn't his squad. I gave him credit for winning those games you were keen to highlight, i gave him credit when he won us two trophies the season before last. I gave him credit for finishing higher in the table than any other manager has done since Fergie left.
I don't like the style of play, i don't like the fact that we seemingly have no coherent plan and i don't like the fact that our attack is left floundering in a lot of games. I can give him credit and criticise when i feel it's appropriate. Which is more than i can say for "posters like yourself".
The two are not mutually exclusive. A club with the resources of Manchester United should be expected to provide both. Challenging for PL and CL plus attacking football. If that's not possible then I'd rather play good football and not win then play shite football and not win.
People keep ignoring this.
Some posters would have you believe (from their arguments) that this is a club the size of Middlesborough or something. There's absolutely no excuse for 5 years of shite football no matter who is managing the team. We're very badly run on football matters and it's certainly goes beyond Mourinho (but he's not fecking helping).
It's a funny one in the sense that many would claim they don't mind the quality of the football citing examples of the likes of Atlético Madrid and how they admire said teams. The same fans would argue that the solidity and battling spirit that identifies many of the teams adopting this approach makes them entertaining in a different way. What is forgotten however is that if you are not a fan, the majority only get to watch those highly charged performances on the big occasions when the emotions and the sense of big occasion provide entertainment on its own. It is a totally different story when you have to sit through 90 minutes every 3 or 4 days, the majority of which are not especially exciting occasions. It really highlights just how important an aesthetically pleasing style of football really is. Anyone can appreciate the sheer visceral value and excitement of Mourinho's title ending victory against Liverpool in 2014. The drama and emotions alone makes it anything but boring. Football unfortunately is 90% mundane run of the mill fixtures especially for the big teams, you are supposed to provide the entertainment out of something more substantial. It even goes so far as to create a feel good factor that extends to giving the benefit of the doubt in case of failure on the remaining 10%. This is a luxury and room for mistake that Mourinho is severely missing compared to Klopp.
Aren't you sweet.
Anyway, I also presume he can't swap out 10 players, so there has to be triage done. So he keeps the players who work hard for him and who he likes. Quelle surprise!
Well I could selectively pick the entire league campaign over a 2 year period as evidence of our improvement but you've already told me you can read the league table.
Players>>>>>>>Managers is the simple idea that players are much more important to a club than the manager is. Avram Grant was a John Terry penalty kick away from being a champions league winning manager, Roberto Di Mateo is a champions league winning manager. Guardiola won every trophy at Barca largely because he inherited Xavi/Iniesta/Messi/Henry etc Zidane won back to back champions league in his first job because he inherited one of the greatest club sides in history. Mourinho may be an arrogant/smug wanker but at least he has the intelligence to realise there's only so much you can do with Smalling/Lingard/Rashford.
If you dislike the style of play then fine, but let's not rewrite history here our football for the last few seasons under SAF was fairly awful and that hasn't changed since. It's much easier to play attractive football when you have Messi/Neymar/Suarez or Bale/Benzema/Ronaldo.
If you think our style of play is going to suddenly improve because a different coach sticks the cones down or uses a different system you're sorely mistaken. Nothing will turn Lingard into Neymar.
So SAF, Wenger, Mourinho (in his first stint at Chelsea), Pep and Zidane are serial winners because they stumbled and fell headfirst into a championship winning squad?
So Moyes would be a Premier League winner if he inherited a League winning squad by your logic but wait... isn't that exactly what he inherited?
If you think that buying better players is all it takes to win championships then Modern Football clubs have been doing it all wrong by hiring coaches and managers innit? Clearly that money should have been spent on the Neymars of this world since they guarantee you a trophy just by being on the pitch.
Laughable post really.
Mate. What the hell are you even arguing about. It's like you read what i write and then just go on a tangent about something else. And please stop bringing up SAF. Just makes no sense. I'm not rewriting anything as i never even brought him up or even made any reference to the past United!
Why are you bringing up Messi and Neymar? Bale and Ronaldo? You're all over the place here. I never even implied that Lingard could be turned into Neymar
Fecking hell. I wouldn't even want that, quite frankly!Christ
The trend is winning something PL, FA cup, doing one over Jose having spent less. Jose's trend is getting roasted both in PL and CL and blaming everyone bar himself. Zizu showed everyone what Madrid are capable of without spending big. Jose got fecked there too.
Just hope we get rid before he fecks us over properly.
I wonder what the reaction will be like this season at Old Trafford when we hit a slump.
Under Van Gaal, they never actually called for his head but it was evident they had turned against him.
Jose doesn't have the unconditional backing he did at Chelsea. I wonder how he will react to that. This season will make or break his United stint.
Under Van Gaal, they never actually called for his head but it was evident they had turned against him.
Jose doesn't have the unconditional backing he did at Chelsea. I wonder how he will react to that. This season will make or break his United stint.
The bad feeling could start with the very first game if we lose/draw and still play boring crap. He's already making excuses for the first two games, preparing us for a shit result. I can see our match going fans getting pissed off right away.
SAF regularly had the highest wages in English football. His sustained success was incredible and he is somewhat of an outlier. Wenger is a terrible example, as soon as Arsenal had to cut spending to pay for the new stadium and he could no longer sign or hold onto the best player we entered the "top 4 is a trophy era" and he never won the league again. Mourinho spent insane amounts as Chelsea during his stint there, another terrible example.
If Pep was able to do it without spending money then why did he sell off Hart/Clichy/Sagna/Bravo/Jovetic/Bony/Dzeko/Nasri/Mangala/Negredo etc? The guy inherited the England number 1 goalkeeper, decided he wasn't good enough so punted him off to Serie A despite him being paid 100k+pw and City subsidising his wages then spent 20m on Bravo and stuck him on a 5 year 100k+ pw deal, decided he wasn't good enough so spent 40m on Ederson and did the same with his wages. So now City have spent 60m+ on 3 keepers in 3 years and 300k+ pw on wages but Pep isn't doing it without money? What do you think would happen to him if he was to takeover at Spurs? Do you think they could even come close to that type of spending.
The harsh reality is when you look at every league in Europe the team who spends the most on transfers/wages almost always finishes first, PSG/Celtic/Bayern make their leagues borderline unwatchable. Obviously there are other factors involved but by far the most important is money spent.
Mate. What the hell are you even arguing about. It's like you read what i write and then just go on a tangent about something else. And please stop bringing up SAF. Just makes no sense. I'm not rewriting anything as i never even brought him up or even made any reference to the past United!
Why are you bringing up Messi and Neymar? Bale and Ronaldo? You're all over the place here. I never even implied that Lingard could be turned into Neymar
Christ
You asked me what players>>>>>>managers meant so I elaborated on it, that's why I'm bringing up Messi and Neymar, because even a bum coach like Enrique who had failed at every other managerial job he'd held previously could win the biggest prizes in football when he has the best team, same as Avram Grant at Chelsea along with the other examples I gave, what's complicated?
If you can't follow along a very simple line of logic then yes just stop responding.
The absolute irony of that statement
It was a rhetorical question hence why i brought up the fact that he's had FIVE transfer windows to rectify it. I Knew what you were saying that's why i called it nonsense. And if you think that you need Messi and Neymar in order to play any semblance of entertaining football then you haven't got a clue. Hell, we have the players here now to play better football.
But yeah, we need Messi, Neymar and Ronaldo. Let's just absolve Jose of all blame
Unless we make the signings Jose wants there's no chance he's still our manager in 12 months time, everything is falling into place for the typical 3rd season meltdown
Read the post I quoted again. Nobody is arguing about money spent, hell the reason we're giving Mourinho stick is exactly because of this reason. He's spent a shitload of money too incase you conveniently want to forget about it. Lukaku and Pogba together cost a whopping 180 million pounds.
Your players >> manager comment is the laughable part really. It's the fact that you think a championship winning team is all the best players and nothing to do with the coach. Do you really think it isn't possible to play good football if you don't have Messi/Neymar/Ronaldo in your team? Tell that to Napoli, Spurs, Monaco,Dortmund and Liverpool who play better football than us and have assembled their teams at a lower wage budget and transfer spend than us.
The fact that you think Enrique is a "bum" coach tells a lot.
Time to use the ignore button
Were slightly different to teams like Atletico who adopt that type of approach, teams like that are well drilled with the whole team on the same page. We are not like that at all, we don't have an identity
The absolute irony of that statement
It was a rhetorical question hence why i brought up the fact that he's had FIVE transfer windows to rectify it. I Knew what you were saying that's why i called it nonsense. And if you think that you need Messi and Neymar in order to play any semblance of entertaining football then you haven't got a clue. Hell, we have the players here now to play better football.
But yeah, we need Messi, Neymar and Ronaldo. Let's just absolve Jose of all blame
Asking why I was bringing up Messi/Neymar etc wasn't a rhetorical question, and you brought up 5 windows in the previous post not that one. You simply didn't understand.
I never said you need Messi, Neymar and Ronaldo, do you fill every post with strawman arguments?
People are arguing about money spent, maybe you should read half of the replies. I'm not denying Mourinho has spent money but it needs to be put into context, 180m in this market gets you 1 Coutinho or Mbappe and 80% of Neymar. Pep inherited a far better core or players and outspent him, so it's not strange that we're behind and the only way we'll catch up is with further investment, some fans think sacking Mourinho is the answer and I disagree, I think any coach who takes over will struggle when he has an undeniably worse squad.
I never said it had nothing to do with the coach, you must be taking strawman lessons from busby, I said players/spending is by far the most important thing, far moreso than the manager and used plenty of examples. Monaco/Dortmund haven't been playing good football since both teams got asset stripped, which only proves my point that players>>>>managers. Napoli played decent for 1 season and will likely face the same fate as the above, they've already lost their best CM to Chelsea.
Are you really going to use Liverpool as an example here after Klopp just broke the world record for a defender and keeper within 6 months? Remind me what Spurs have won again?
should have sold him PSG! yes, a Great coach but that environment he creates is just 'poisonous'
I did not write that at all. My post was about how building a team that is more functional than aesthetically pleasing might look fine and even exciting when looking at it from an outsider's perspective and how it all changes when it is your own team and you are watching that every week. When that happens, only winning the PL or CL can save you from criticism.
He never sugarcoat anything nor gave any fake promise / false hope just to make you happy. I found him very honest
Will be interesting when everyone is fit, in theory Jose could field:
De Gea, Valencia, lindelof, Bailly, Dalot, Matic, Pogba, Fred, Sanchez, Lukaku and Lingard.
Ie, just the best keeper in the world and an attacker away from an entire XI he chose and signed.
So can't help but feel that excuse is wearing a bit thin.
De Gea, Valencia, lindelof, Bailly, Dalot, Matic, Pogba, Fred, Sanchez, Lukaku and Lingard.
Ie, just the best keeper in the world and an attacker away from an entire XI he chose and signed.
So can't help but feel that excuse is wearing a bit thin.
The media absolutely adored him in his early years at Chelsea, he was getting the current Klopp or Pep treatment. How things have changed, he's now a lot of like Fergie in many ways, doesn't want to be put in front a room full of journalists, but at the same time certainly does himself no favours. I can't imagine how crap it must be to sit in a room where an awful lot of people have published lies about your feelings and who will distort any quote you may make to suit their agenda.
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