have you every watched a game of football where you didn't have a defensive minded midfielder in the side? go back and watch England games with Gerrard/Lampard in the same CM decent sides walked through them, you need a defensive minded player in there, its not fantasy football where you want all goalscorers and assist makers you need role players, Modric wouldn't replace Henderson in this side, it would he Dele or Lingard
Jordan Henderson | New Athletic Interview: I strongly believe that me playing in Saudi Arabia is a positive thing
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Started against Russia and Portugal.
And so just because a player born in 1997, who last year was playing against Portugal on the under 20 WC, who ok on his first season in Europe still managed to play sometimes for the best team on Serie A, does that make him average? Not easy to be ahead of players like Pjanic with this age.
Average for me is a cheap word used on this forum to say everything that doesn't start for top teams on the EPL, La Liga, Serie A is average.
We are talking about International Football, not the Champions League.
Now if everything that isn't Modric, Rakitic is average, then certainly most players are average at this level.
It's just wording then, I guess. Bentancur has impressed me every time I've seen him play, can't say the same for Torreira if I'm honest.
If Xavi/Iniesta/Busquets are world class, then I'd say Hazard/KDB/Witsel (yes we've played like that sometimes) or Modric/Rakitic/Kovacic are very good and Uruguay's midfield is definitely one tier or more below that. Whether I'd say they're "just good" or "average" doesn't change the fact that Uruguay relies on its attack and defence to win games, not exactly their midfield. Same goes for a lot of teams in this WC because there isn't really an outstanding midfield present.
Anyway, let's not take this further in an Henderson thread. I'd say their "midfield" (Alli/Lingard/Henderson) is average as well fwiw.
He's probably the most technically inept player in the squad, and I include Pickford and the other goalkeepers in this. He just looks so awkward in the way he moves. From what I've heard though he's an exceptionally hard worker so maybe this is what you end up with if you have the work rate of CR7 with only a tiny fraction of the natural talent/technical ability. Well done on how far you've come Hendo!
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Ok to keep this on Henderson then, I just have different concepts of average, for me average means slightly better than bad, and don't think any of those 3 players you mentioned is hardly average. Maybe not World Class, I agree. But how many of them are at this level, not much.
And we don't have any counterfactual proof until we see them if England has to face Croatia. Until that happens, we might think England midfield players are individually better than the Swedish. Does this mean they will demolish them?
I don't think so.
Don't think he is bad technically. His major shortcomings are his inability/ocd unwillingness to take the ball on the turn and control/run in close spaces. If he had that to the same level as his passing (which while not outstanding is better than he gets credit for) he could be an excellent midfielder. He is a fine player when he is facing the right way with the ball. Still better technically than any of the centre backs.
The total lack of these qualities though makes him so easy to nullify on the ball. Just have a player shadow his back when he receives it from the centre backs and it's a guaranteed back pass. He has no press resistance whatsoever. Or at least no willingness to ever find out how press resistant he could be.
He does all the other stuff to a decently high level though, without being world class at anything but willingness to run and follow instructions. A sum-greater-than-its-merely-decent-but-plentiful-parts water carrier.
I mean, he's not terrible technically, as in he can boot a 40 yard pass into space, but I'm referring more to the way he moves, he just doesn't look like an athlete to me, even though he clearly is. Unorthodox would probably be the best term for it. I don't dislike him and think he's the best for that position, certainly ahead of Dier after that cameo last night, but if he can be a cog in a trophy winning England team this summer I'll bow down to him.
Hes been mostly good for England this tournament. More forward passes than I was expecting as well. And I think hes our best option right now. The one big problem for England is Ox being injured.
He's improved a lot under Klopp. His passing is more ambitious, actually has very good range now and usually looks forward. He's also playing deeper so isnt as much of a headless chicken. He's a very good CM now, nothing more than that but does all the basics well.
He’s a decent player and definitely the best cm England have at the minute.
He’s had a decent World Cup and I’m definitely warming to him.
When the season starts up I’ll hate him again, but for these four weeks I’ll love him and root for him.
He’s had a decent World Cup and I’m definitely warming to him.
When the season starts up I’ll hate him again, but for these four weeks I’ll love him and root for him.
He's improved so much that Klopp has replaced him
Nope, Klopp has replaced Can. Henderson will start plenty of games for Liverpool next season.
I think people forget, that whilst he wasn't prolific, he used to chip in with a few goals when he played in a more advanced role. Made some great runs too.
I'm glad other Liverpool fans have noticed this. He also tends to hide behind the attacker when the defence is coming out with the ball aswell instead of moving into space. He should be a box to box player not a DM he hasn't got the composure at all for it
I agree. His 13/14 form in November/December of that season showed what he can do as an attacking midfielder.
Average Premier league level centre mid, but certainly better there than Dier.
Wilshere should be disappointed he hasn't played well enough to get in the squad, let alone in over Hendo, but that says more about Wilshere than Hendo himself.
From the days where we had Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, Scholes, Beckham, and many others operating just below, it is a shocking inditement of the lack of quality around, but it's what is it, and by sheer lack of any logic, we've our best chance of doing something since 1996!
Wilshere should be disappointed he hasn't played well enough to get in the squad, let alone in over Hendo, but that says more about Wilshere than Hendo himself.
From the days where we had Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, Scholes, Beckham, and many others operating just below, it is a shocking inditement of the lack of quality around, but it's what is it, and by sheer lack of any logic, we've our best chance of doing something since 1996!
Jordan HenDROPPED - not sure we can trust that glass jaw of his. His keepy uppie game pretty strong though.
Well according to Fergie’s wisdom he’s due to break down in the next 37 days due to his running style. Or something.
Nah, he's better than just average
Well yes he has players near and around him but that doesn't make it easy to play with those players. Apart from Walker, Stones, Trippier and possibly Ali the rest are your typical give and go-ers (Kane doesn't count here as he's the lone forward). Happy to make runs facing the ball in front of them but never really comfortable receiving it in tight spaces/pressing situations or willing (on 1st instinct) to run towards the player with the ball to give short options.
Going forward, this basically applies to Lingard, Ali and Sterling, who will go for the transitional plays where the reward might be high i.e through balls, quick one-twos etc but their execution is inconsistent. What that means are high turnovers of the ball = less possession = less control. Less we talk about Young's ball playing ability other than clearing it and launching long balls into the channel the better.
Henderson has plenty to criticise in terms of his individual ability and even under the 'praise' I'm giving him but his job is uniquely difficult in the team.
As a Liverpool fan he shouldnt be captain but a squad player, in some games he's handy ,but yeah he has been replaced in my view with fabinho keita ,I think we will change to a 4231 .
Yeah, but that wasn't under Southgate! I think a younger Carrick would be 1st choice in this England system.
Not good enough or consistent enough that I'd want him anywhere near the United team, but for England he's the only option really, and I have to say he's done fairly well as things considered.
Man was quality from 2013 to 2015, peaking in the 2014/15 season when he was low key top drawer. Ever since his incurable heel problems showed up in mid 2015 he hasn't played further forward in midfield which is where he operates well. Does the bare minumum for both Liverpool and England as the deepest midfielder, a position he had to adapt his game to because of his injury issues
Something tells me his injury problems will get worse - does a lot of running for someone who's constantly in pain.
Something tells me his injury problems will get worse - does a lot of running for someone who's constantly in pain.
Put Modric in Henderson's position and Southgate will deploy Dier as DMF, England will then go on to win the World Cup.
In that pocket of space he generally has 8 easy passes on. That's the beauty of Southgates system.
He's not doing a hard job. He's doing a simple job, very very well.
All opinion regarding whether it's easy or not of course. Gerard would have been incapable of playing that role. Scholes could have done it in his sleep.
The test comes when a team sets up in a way to force the issue in that space, or simply pulls us left and right and disorganises us.
I think Croatia have the potential to tear us to pieces in that regard. If we beat Sweden that is.
So you are putting dier in Henderson position not modric.Put Modric in Henderson's position and Southgate will deploy Dier as DMF, England will then go on to win the World Cup.
Have to agree to disagree then.
You wanna see a player like Scholes play in a system with no proper midfield control/personnel? Watch Kroos try his best during Germany's games where he was getting overrun left, right and centre.
He's doing a simple job of a difficult role more like, which is as good as it gets all things considered.
Agree on the bold bit but then that's true for the whole team and will be more of a responsibility on Southgate to recognise that firstly.
Of the England "back-line" he actually can do a long ball to strikers. In this world cup I have seen one from Trippier but that's it. So far at least 3 good ones from Henderson. I like how he puts a shift in defending as he is supposed to. A lot of good interceptions/tackles/winning the ball. The problem is what to do after he does win the ball. Too often he plays it safe instead of starting a lightning quick attack. Mind you he has got better at starting attacks last year under Klopp. Before he was horrendous side-ways passer. I hope to see more of that from him in this tournament.
Another good performance from him. Gets unfair stick on here probably because he’s a Liverpool player.
His best game of the tournament to date and probably the best player on the pitch.
He's in great form had a few niggles last season for Liverpool hopefully they are behind him.
He’s the only midfielder England has who can play in that role and he’s excelling at it right now.
Croatia would be a real test coming up against Modric and Rakatic.
Croatia would be a real test coming up against Modric and Rakatic.
As he should
He's tactically really astute. He brings in experience and order to those midfield that full of no. 10s.
You can see the free fall drop in England midfield control, when Dier or others replacing him.
You can see the free fall drop in England midfield control, when Dier or others replacing him.
Dier in midfield is terrible. Glad we didnt buy him.
He's still young. And WC isn't really a place to dismiss a player. But I do see your point though. Dier seems like lost and has no idea on how to play that Henderson role.
Better than Maguire and Pickford? Nah. Did well though, knows his limits but runs himself into the ground for the team.
Was scared he would get a yellow card yesterday because he is crucial to England.
Yes he plays for Liverpool, but I'm not blinded by rivalry.
Yes he plays for Liverpool, but I'm not blinded by rivalry.
Exactly, that's how it should be. We laugh at Sterling and Lingard when they're playing for their clubs but we don't stop seeing what they can bring to the collective unit. That's what a team game is.
In the middle we need Hendo, Lingard and Sterling fresh for the next two games if we're going to win the thing.