Jonny Evans | 2011/12 Performances

It's a fair article, it's certainly not slating he's a pretty good defender but he's not World Class, much like David Luiz. The main difference is that Luiz was very expensive and Evans was free. He'll likely be another player like Wes Brown or John O'Shea, a utility man, if he ever ends up as a genuine first choice defender for us over the long term it'll be disappointing, because it'll mean Smalling hasn't developed particularly well and our centre backs are nowhere near as good as the best ones in our history.

That said, I'm not sure what the "hype" mentioned in the article is. Apart from Ferguson's ridiculous quote about him there's been very little hype as far as I can see, he's pretty much rated as he is, a decent Premier League centre back.
 
kietotheworld said:
That said, I'm not sure what the "hype" mentioned in the article is. Apart from Ferguson's ridiculous quote about him there's been very little hype as far as I can see, he's pretty much rated as he is, a decent Premier League centre back.
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Bullshit. He's quite clearly among the best centrebacks in the league.
 
kietotheworld said:
If that's the case why isn't he widely recognised as such?
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Almost every single United player is underrated by fans of other English clubs. It's hilarious because it's so illogical. It's the reason we always have "the worst United squad I've ever seen" and yet somehow keep winning all the time.
 
Chabon said:
Almost every single United player is underrated by fans of other English clubs. It's hilarious because it's so illogical. It's the reason we always have "the worst United squad I've ever seen" and yet somehow keep winning all the time.
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What is more likely; that almost every single United player is underrated by everyone else or that almost every single United player is overrated by United fans?
 
What's more likely; that a United side which has been averaging over 2.3 points for 18 months despite substantial injuries has a squad packed with fantastic footballers or that they're all mediocre (except Van Persie) and that Sir Alex is literally a magician?
 
Chabon said:
What's more likely; that a United side which has been averaging over 2.3 points for 18 months despite substantial injuries has a squad packed with fantastic footballers or that they're all mediocre except Van Persie and that Sir Alex is literally a magician?
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I'd go with a middle ground. Manchester United have lots of great players and also some good ones to go with a great manager and gobs of money. It's hardly a surprise that such a club would be successful. The RAWKites who say that the whole squad is crap and Ferguson sold his soul in order to win titles are delusional but so is the idea that everyone else underrates almost every single United player.
 
Visit literally any other forum, especially ones where your own clowns hang out. The vast, vast majority simply can't account for our relentless victories, because they entirely fail to appreciate how good players like Carrick, Evans, Nani, De Gea, Rafael, Anderson, Smalling, Jones, Cleverley, Welbeck and especially Rooney are.
 
Or maybe it's you who can't appreciate that they aren't all as good as you think they are. Sure, some guys can be overrated or underrated but when there is a vast gulf of opinion between you and everyone else on an entire squad then maybe the simplest explanation is the most likely.
 
Then why are we better at winning football matches than almost any team in premier league history?
 
Chabon said:
Visit literally any other forum, especially ones where your own clowns hang out. The vast, vast majority simply can't account for our relentless victories, because they entirely fail to appreciate how good players like Carrick, Evans, Nani, De Gea, Rafael, Anderson, Smalling, Jones, Cleverley, Welbeck and especially Rooney are.
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You're completely full of shit, you come out with all of these arrogant, unfalsifiable comments about how underrated all our players are by "the vast vast majority" of "literally any other forum" with feck all to back it up. It's just garbage that you present as fact for no real reason other than it backing up your argument, I don't know if you actually believe this crap or you just make it up or you go along.

Now onto real verifiable facts, we do have players who are clearly among the best in their positions in the League and they're recognised as such, they're not dismissed because they play for Manchester United.

Van Persie, for example
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2256260/Robin-van-Persie-league-own.html

Wayne Rooney
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/ballond'or/fif/proworldxi/01/94/02/84//fifafifproworldxi2011.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFA_Team_of_the_Year#Premier_League_5

Vidic and Nani Circa 2010-11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFA_Team_of_the_Year#Premier_League_4

Valencia in 2009-10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFA_Team_of_the_Year#Premier_League_3

When our players are clearly among the best in the League in their positions they're recognised as such. If only a minority of United fans recognise it then he can't be "clearly among the best in the League", because it's not clear to vast swathes of people who watch football.
 
kietotheworld said:
You're completely full of shit, you come out with all of these arrogant, unfalsifiable comments about how underrated all our players are by "the vast vast majority" of "literally any other forum" with feck all to back it up. It's just garbage that you present as fact for no real reason other than it backing up your argument, I don't know if you actually believe this crap or you just make it up or you go along.
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Do you frequent any rival fan's forums at all? I'm not sure if I can be bothered, but if I had a couple of spare hours I could easily produce several hundred posts from rival forums in which our players are derided and our entire squad dismissed as inferior to our rivals and far weaker than previous United squads. If I had a day I could produce thousands of such posts. I'm also amused that your examples which apparently prove me wrong are all awards voted for by other footballers, not fans and journalists.

And of course Van Persie doesn't count as one of our underrated players for feck's sake. Certain players like him and Vidic are just so fecking good that even the most ABU of idiots can't dismiss it.
 
Kietotheworld, as someone who actually does obsessively read football forums of all stripes, I feel absolutely comfortable telling you what the broad consensus is on most United players. Obviously you'll dismiss it because it doesn't suit your agenda, and will fling around all manner of absuse and frothing anger, but it's not exactly something we can prove without going onto those forums and doing polls. Alternatively you could waste as much of your life as I do reading football fans moaning about things, which while hugely educational is almost certainly, on reflection, aimless.

What I find particularly interest is those of players about whom there is a broadly positive opinion. I'd say the only ones are RVP and Vidic, because they're the best in the world in their positions, and Hernandez and Valencia, who are usually cited as being particularly likeable 'for United players'. Rafael has also started to turn a lot of people around as well, which just shows how exceptional he's been this year. I'd say pretty much everyone else is underrated*, often distinctly so, which invariably leads to the gnashing and wailing of teeth about how such a crap team can win so consistently.

Actually that last part does almost make the whole thing worthwhile.

*I should note that there also exceptions at the other end of the scale for Giggs, Scholes and Ferdinand, who are largely seen as they are, once great but now of limited quality.
 
Chabon said:
Do you frequent any rival fan's forums at all? I'm not sure if I can be bothered, but if I had a couple of spare hours I could easily produce several hundred posts from rival forums in which our players are derided and our entire squad dismissed as inferior to our rivals and far weaker than previous United squads. If I had a day I could produce thousands of such posts. I'm also amused that your examples which apparently prove me wrong are all awards voted for by other footballers, not fans and journalists.

And of course Van Persie doesn't count as one of our underrated players for feck's sake. Certain players like him and Vidic are just so fecking good that even the most ABU of idiots can't dismiss it.
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If you can't be bothered to find some evidence for these viewpoints perhaps you shouldn't come out with this garbage in the first place to support arguments over a player's ability. Our players have won 3 of the last 6 Football Writers' Player of the Year awards (not including VP), last year van Persie won it with Wayne Rooney and Paul Scholes in second and third place respectively. There is no national myopia among journalists when it comes to United, if anything they're over-rating our players, there's no way Scholes was better than Kompany last season.

The reason that van Persie and Vidic aren't (or weren't in Vidic's case) dismissed is that they're clearly among the best players in their position in the League, which is what Evans was proclaimed as. If he genuinely was as good as he's built up to be on here then he'd be rated up there with them.
 
Van Persie and Vidic aren't "among the best players in their position in the league", they're the out and out best players in the world in their positions. The same thing happened with Ronaldo. He was a crap one-trick pony until he just got so very, very good that suddenly we were a one man team. Our most exceptional players getting awards doesn't prove anything when every single year a huge number of journalists come out with the "weakest squad since x" crap.
 
Chabon said:
Kietotheworld, as someone who actually does obsessively read football forums of all stripes, I feel absolutely comfortable telling you what the broad consensus is on most United players. Obviously you'll dismiss it because it doesn't suit your agenda, and will fling around all manner of absuse and frothing anger, but it's not exactly something we can prove without going onto those forums and doing polls. Alternatively you could waste as much of your life as I do reading football fans moaning about things, which while hugely educational is almost certainly, on reflection, aimless.

What I find particularly interest is those of players about whom there is a broadly positive opinion. I'd say the only ones are RVP and Vidic, because they're the best in the world in their positions, and Hernandez and Valencia, who are usually cited as being particularly likeable 'for United players'. Rafael has also started to turn a lot of people around as well, which just shows how exceptional he's been this year. I'd say pretty much everyone else is underrated*, often distinctly so, which invariably leads to the gnashing and wailing of teeth about how such a crap team can win so consistently.

Actually that last part does almost make the whole thing worthwhile.

*I should note that there also exceptions at the other end of the scale for Giggs, Scholes and Ferdinand, who are largely seen as they are, once great but now of limited quality.
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I'll tell you what mate, when you come up with these hundreds or thousands of posts you mention which categorically prove that most United players are thought of as shit by opposition fans, and you find some way of independently assessing the quality of those players to prove that it's not you who is over-rating them and it's actually all other football fans who are under-rating them, I won't dismiss you're claims, until then it's all just hot air. It's got absolutely to do with an agenda.
 
kietotheworld said:
If you can't be bothered to find some evidence for these viewpoints perhaps you shouldn't come out with this garbage in the first place to support arguments over a player's ability. Our players have won 3 of the last 6 Football Writers' Player of the Year awards (not including VP), last year van Persie won it with Wayne Rooney and Paul Scholes in second and third place respectively. There is no national myopia among journalists when it comes to United, if anything they're over-rating our players, there's no way Scholes was better than Kompany last season.

The reason that van Persie and Vidic aren't (or weren't in Vidic's case) dismissed is that they're clearly among the best players in their position in the League, which is what Evans was proclaimed as. If he genuinely was as good as he's built up to be on here then he'd be rated up there with them.
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What about the opposition fans kietotheworld?
 
Yeah, I really can't be arsed with going back and searching through a couple dozen forums for every single mention of us over the last couple of years. But perhaps I might start PMing you every single post I read which discusses either one of our players or our squad generally, if you'd like that?

That's the only way you could build up a broad awareness of how fans of other clubs view things, and then maybe you wouldn't be so dense as to cite how other fans view Jonny Evans as some kind of evidence of his not being one of the best defenders in the league. We're talking about a group of people which 'widely recognises' our squad as crap, even as it continues to steamroll the league, ffs. Football fans (and most journalists are fans too) are generally idiots, and football fans who hate something have terrible judgement.
 
Chabon said:
Van Persie and Vidic aren't "among the best players in their position in the league", they're the out and out best players in the world in their positions. The same thing happened with Ronaldo. He was a crap one-trick pony until he just got so very, very good that suddenly we were a one man team. Our most exceptional players getting awards doesn't prove anything when every single year a huge number of journalists come out with the "weakest squad since x" crap.
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Come on, this is ridiculous. I think Van Persie is great and I bear no ill will for his transfer but he's not out and out the best striker in the world. Assuming you aren't considering Ronaldo and Messi then you've still got Falcao, Ibrahimovic, Rooney, Aguero, Cavani, Neymar, Gomez, Villa that aren't far off. RVP may be better but to state definitively that he is out and out better than all those guys reeks of bias.

Same with Vidic. Maybe a couple of years ago he was the best in the world but now an argument could be made for Kompany, Chiellini, Silva, Ramos, Hummels. To say that in 2013 Vidic is out and out the best CB is further proof of your inability to judge objectively.
 
Do you ever talk to your opposition team supporting friends kietotheworld? Most of mine think at least half the United squad are shite, the rest are decent, and RVP is good. I had a family member tell me RVP hadn't really done that much this season.

My Liverpool supporting mates can all list off half a dozen Liverpool players better than the United players in the same positions. I assume Liverpool must be really unlucky to be so shit with so many players better than those in the United team, since they aren't really under rating the United players.
 
The Neviller said:
What about the opposition fans kietotheworld?
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Fans of our direct rivals will probably under-rate our players a bit, much like we do their's. I expect fans of non-rivals clubs will rate our players about right on average, albeit with a somewhat larger range of how they rate them due to watching United less than what we do, it'll be more dependent on how that player has done against their particular club in the past.
 
The Neviller said:
Do you ever talk to your opposition team supporting friends kietotheworld? Most of mine think at least half the United squad are shite, the rest are decent, and RVP is good. I had a family member tell me RVP hadn't really done that much this season.

My Liverpool supporting mates can all list off half a dozen Liverpool players better than the United players in the same positions. I assume Liverpool must be really unlucky to be so shit with so many players better than those in the United team, since they aren't really under rating the United players.
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Your family must be crazier than you are.
 
kietotheworld said:
Fans of our direct rivals will probably under-rate our players a bit, much like we do their's.
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Yeah, the thing is fans of most Premier League clubs hate us as much as they would a rival.

Eboue said:
Same with Vidic. Maybe a couple of years ago he was the best in the world but now an argument could be made for Kompany, Chiellini, Silva, Ramos, Hummels. To say that in 2013 Vidic is out and out the best CB is further proof of your inability to judge objectively.
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At present people don't really have an up to date opinion on Vidic, because he's barely played for 18 months, but when he was last fit he was the best CB in the world and was widely accepted as such. If Messi didn't play again for 18 months he'd probably still be regarded as the best player in the world.
 
Chabon said:
Yeah, I really can't be arsed with going back and searching through a couple dozen forums for every single mention of us over the last couple of years. But perhaps I might start PMing you every single post I read which discusses either one of our players or our squad generally, if you'd like that?

That's the only way you could build up a broad awareness of how fans of other clubs view things, and then maybe you wouldn't be so dense as to cite how other fans view Jonny Evans as some kind of evidence of his not being one of the best defenders in the league. We're talking about a group of people which 'widely recognises' our squad as crap, even as it continues to steamroll the league, ffs. Football fans (and most journalists are fans too) are generally idiots, and football fans who hate something have terrible judgement.
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Why don't you just cut the shit? You're basing this off fuzzy perceptions which come from you over-rating our players a bit and opposition fans rating them more or less fairly, which to you seems like under-rating.

I cite other fans (and journalists, and players) not rating Evans particularly highly as evidence for him not being clearly one of the best defenders in the League, it's a very important distinction that you're missing. Now I don't particularly agree that he's among the best in the League, or even close to it, he's a 6 or a 7/10 Premier League defender whereas somebody like Kompany or Rio or Vidic at their best would be a 9.9 or a 10, if he was this super defender who was among the best in the League he'd probably be looked at as one of them unless there were some special circumstances preventing him from being so, but there isn't, other than the extremely flimsy "He plays for United" excuse, despite the fact plenty of other United players are recognised as the best.

The Neviller said:
Do you ever talk to your opposition team supporting friends kietotheworld? Most of mine think at least half the United squad are shite, the rest are decent, and RVP is good. I had a family member tell me RVP hadn't really done that much this season.

My Liverpool supporting mates can all list off half a dozen Liverpool players better than the United players in the same positions. I assume Liverpool must be really unlucky to be so shit with so many players better than those in the United team, since they aren't really under rating the United players.
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With the greatest of respect it sounds like your friends and family are morons. The opposition fans I speak to think that about half the United squad is pretty good, unexceptional, a quarter of it is well past its best, and a quarter of it is really really great and will probably drag it to the League title, along with our extremely strong squad. Widely held opinion is that the team has deteriorated significantly from when it was best in the world, and doesn't really have a prayer in the Champions League.

As for Liverpool having half a dozen players better than the United players in the same positions, I can see why someone would think that if they were a bit biased.

Look at these player head to heads

Reina Vs. DDG
Johnson Vs. Rafael
Agger Vs. Rio
Skrtel Vs. Evans
Enrique Vs. Evra
Gerrard Vs. Cleverley/Carrick
Suarez Vs. Rooney

It wouldn't take much bias to hand 6 of those to the Liverpool player, the gaps aren't particularly massive in any of those head to heads, I certainly wouldn't give them 6, maybe 2 or 3, but it's hardly symptomatic of massively under-rating our players, just over-rating theirs a bit and under-rating ours a bit. We'll finish well above them not because of luck but because of our far far stronger squad.
 
No need for respect, the ones I'm talking about are morons, which is why they underrate United players.

There are lots of morons out there though, so they aren't alone
 
acnumber9 said:
Your family must be crazier than you are.
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They're not alone though most fans get their views fed to them by Soccer Saturday and MOTD and just regurgate the tired cliches they hear. A lot of people will swear blind that we have issues at right back just cos they heard it on the tele it's like listening to Le Tiss on loop.

Our side rarely gets the credit it's earned frankly. Even in 2008/09 a season where we won the title, the league cup, were European Cup runners up and got cheated out of a chance to win the FA Cup we got no love until the final weeks of the season. Going into the Arsenal European Cup semi final the consensus among the 'experts' was that we were going to get 'found out' and even after we beat them 1-0 in the first leg the 'experts' said we'd regret not making more of our advantage as Arsenal would do us at the Emirates...

It's just a fact of life that when it comes to United people see what they want to see and not the reality.
 
kietotheworld said:
Why don't you just cut the shit? You're basing this off fuzzy perceptions which come from you over-rating our players a bit and opposition fans rating them more or less fairly, which to you seems like under-rating.
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You think that other fans rate our players 'more or less fairly', and yet also recognise that:

kietotheworld said:
Widely held opinion is that the team has deteriorated significantly from when it was best in the world, and doesn't really have a prayer in the Champions League.
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So I see, other fans widely hold an incredibly stupid opinion, but other than that they're almost certainly all right about everything. :wenger:
 
#07 said:
They're not alone though most fans get their views fed to them by Soccer Saturday and MOTD and just regurgate the tired cliches they hear. A lot of people will swear blind that we have issues at right back just cos they heard it on the tele it's like listening to Le Tiss on loop.
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This again is a myth, what you are doing here is regurgitating bullshit cliches you read on RedCafe about our players being heinously over-rated by a pro-Liverpool media.

Our side rarely gets the credit it's earned frankly. Even in 2008/09 a season where we won the title, the league cup, were European Cup runners up and got cheated out of a chance to win the FA Cup we got no love until the final weeks of the season. Going into the Arsenal European Cup semi final the consensus among the 'experts' was that we were going to get 'found out' and even after we beat them 1-0 in the first leg the 'experts' said we'd regret not making more of our advantage as Arsenal would do us at the Emirates...

It's just a fact of life that when it comes to United people see what they want to see and not the reality.
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More rubbish. Here is an article talking up our chances of winning the Quintuple, an achievement that has never actually happened for any team in the world earlier in the season

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-to-steer-Manchester-United-to-quintuple.html

This was one of many, the media loved talking up that achievement. Google "Man Utd Quintuple" if you don't believe me.

Here's a match report from the first leg of the Semi Final

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/29/manchester-united-arsenal-champions-league-semi-final

Has United strongly as favourites after a great performance, talking about how it's in our nature to do this sort of thing. It gets about as negative as "they [Arsenal] departed in relief that the tie is not completely over."

Here's another one from The Sun

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2403115/.html

It says that qualifying would "one of the greatest achievements in their history."

The Telegraph previews the second leg by listing 3 previous matches, pointing out that all previous results listed would see Arsenal eliminated

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...hester-United-Whats-in-store-at-Emirates.html

Now the media, as is their trade, will try to hype up ties, so I don't doubt they said that "This is not over" and "Manchester United could regret not taking their chances" but the idea that all the experts thought we had no chance is complete bollocks.

The only one who is seeing what they want is you.
 
Chabon said:
You think that other fans rate our players 'more or less fairly', and yet also recognise that:



So I see, other fans widely hold an incredibly stupid opinion, but other than that they're almost certainly all right about everything. :wenger:
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If you think our team hasn't deteriorated a lot from this

VDS

Brown Ferdinand Vidic Evra

Hargreaves Carrick Scholes Ronaldo

Rooney Tevez
(2008 CL Final squad used for convenience, it was one night only so switch it for another from 2008/2009 if it makes you feel better, the point stands)​


and that thinking the team has deteriorated a lot since then is a stupid opinion you're the one who is completely detached from reality. Our squad might be stronger but the first team is far weaker, I don't know anyone in real life, United fan or otherwise, who would dispute that it's weaker.
 
kietotheworld said:
If you think our team hasn't deteriorated a lot from this

VDS

Brown Ferdinand Vidic Evra

Hargreaves Carrick Scholes Ronaldo

Rooney Tevez
(2008 CL Final squad used for convenience, it was one night only so switch it for another from 2008/2009 if it makes you feel better, the point stands)​


and that thinking the team has deteriorated a lot since then is a stupid opinion you're the one who is completely detached from reality. Our squad might be stronger but the first team is far weaker, I don't know anyone in real life, United fan or otherwise, who would dispute that it's weaker.
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Not going to lie, before looking at that line-up I would have agreed with you that we've declined somewhat. But actually, beyond the obvious loss of Ronaldo, I'd say we've got just as good a line-up on paper. RVP is much better than Tevez was back then. I'd rather have an in-form Nani or Valencia on the wing than Hargreaves, wobbly as it would make us at the back. Neither Cleverley or Anderson is a 2008 Scholes, obviously, but they're both looking pretty good there. And in form, Carrick is better now than he was back then. Rafael is better than Brown. Yes, Vidic-Ferdinand-Evra is better than what I believe to be our best current players in those positions, Vidic-Evans-Evra, but not by a long way.

We've been in inconsistent form until recently this season, and particularly there's clearly been a problem with conceding too many goals. But with all players in form, I'd say this current team's not so very far off that one, Ronaldo or no Ronaldo.

Slate away :nervous:

EDIT: Oh, and we've got Kagawa. :drool:
 
Really? Van Der Sar was far better than De Gea, Brown was a lot more solid than Rafael has ever been, he needed to be with Evra on the opposite flank bombing forward, for that team he was certainly better. Ferdinand in the year prior to that line-up was far and away the best defender in the world, as was Vidic in the year hence, both superior to anything Evans is in his dreams and something Vidic is desperate to get back to. Evra was being described as "JESUS #2" and "That which no greater can be conceived" around that time, far better than he is today.

Carrick was just as good then as he is now, probably playing a role that better suited him, Scholes was streets ahead of Cleverley or Anderson, and Ronaldo obviously shits on Young from a great height. Valencia/Hargreaves, Rooney/Rooney and van Persie/Tevez I'll give you but it's nowhere near offsetting the great gulfs in quality all over the rest of the pitch.

Is Kagawa even in our strongest team by the way? It seems a bit of a weird signing to me, I can't see where this guy fits in.
 
kietotheworld said:
Really? Van Der Sar was far better than De Gea, Brown was a lot more solid than Rafael has ever been, he needed to be with Evra on the opposite flank bombing forward, for that team he was certainly better. Ferdinand in the year prior to that line-up was far and away the best defender in the world, as was Vidic in the year hence, both superior to anything Evans is in his dreams and something Vidic is desperate to get back to. Evra was being described as "JESUS #2" and "That which no greater can be conceived" around that time, far better than he is today.

Carrick was just as good then as he is now, probably playing a role that better suited him, Scholes was streets ahead of Cleverley or Anderson, and Ronaldo obviously shits on Young from a great height. Valencia/Hargreaves, Rooney/Rooney and van Persie/Tevez I'll give you but it's nowhere near offsetting the great gulfs in quality all over the rest of the pitch.

Is Kagawa even in our strongest team by the way? It seems a bit of a weird signing to me, I can't see where this guy fits in.
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Agree with most of this really, even it it is a little hyperbole. Ferdinand Vidic of 4 years ago >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferdinand Vidic of today. Same goes for Scholes and Evra. Then obviously, well, Ronaldo....

That team would beat today's team. I've no doubt.
 
The defence is definitely what sets the two apart. That must surely be one of the best defences ever assembled. 2 players in it pretty much nailed on as the best in their position (Evra and Ferdinand), Vidic not too far behind, Brown playing so well that he may as well have been one of the top defenders on the planet and a world class keeper behind them. To go up against Barcelona and just sit back over two legs and not concede...amazing. They weren't the force they were the year after that one, but Xavi and Messi (when he was fit) for example were still absolutely world class at that point.

To argue the case for this team, it's worth mentioning that Scholes really wasn't anywhere near as good that season as he was the year before, meaning that the midfield isn't quite the mismatch it looks at first. You could even say that if Nani and Valencia are on form and at the top of their game, a match between the two sides would be a very even contest. Further, Rooney is clearly better now than he was in 07/08 (perhaps his worst season for us on an individual basis barring his debut season), and Van Persie is miles better than Tevez ever was for us.

Basically, this:

----------------De Gea----------------
Rafael-------Vidic-----Evans----------Evra
Valencia-----Carrick----Cleverley------Nani
-------------------Rooney----------------
----------------Van Persie----------------

...is a seriously strong team if Vidic, Nani and Valencia are at their best, but there are obviously question marks over all three of them at the moment. Assuming that Valencia and Nani do ever return to top form at the same time and that Vidic gets somewhere near the level he was at before his recent injuries, it'd be a close run thing if the two teams were to play each other.

Again though, that defence was just sublime and shits on anything we have to offer at the moment. In terms of an imaginary match between the two teams (it's not really relevant but nice to think of anyway), Van Persie and Rooney is one hell of a strikeforce, but I am not convinced the team as an attacking unit is cohesive and fluid enough to trouble Ferdinand et al.
 
kietotheworld said:
Really? Van Der Sar was far better than De Gea, Brown was a lot more solid than Rafael has ever been, he needed to be with Evra on the opposite flank bombing forward, for that team he was certainly better. Ferdinand in the year prior to that line-up was far and away the best defender in the world, as was Vidic in the year hence, both superior to anything Evans is in his dreams and something Vidic is desperate to get back to. Evra was being described as "JESUS #2" and "That which no greater can be conceived" around that time, far better than he is today.

Carrick was just as good then as he is now, probably playing a role that better suited him, Scholes was streets ahead of Cleverley or Anderson, and Ronaldo obviously shits on Young from a great height. Valencia/Hargreaves, Rooney/Rooney and van Persie/Tevez I'll give you but it's nowhere near offsetting the great gulfs in quality all over the rest of the pitch.

Is Kagawa even in our strongest team by the way? It seems a bit of a weird signing to me, I can't see where this guy fits in.
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Agree with your post.

Just to add, the Valencia/Hargreaves comparison isn't really fair because he wasn't playing as a conventional winger but was used to offset the left and offer more balance. In that role I would have him ahead of Valencia.
 
Yeah, I thought Hargreaves showed an awful lot in that role and I was looking forward to seeing him continue in it, it'd be a bit harsh to put him ahead of Valencia in that role on the strength of so few games though.
 
kietotheworld said:
If that's the case why isn't he widely recognised as such?
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this is just silly. Nani was putting in match-winning performances and pundits still criticized him for being a diver instead of recognizing him for the performances he was putting in for United.

To be widely recognized, you have to get media coverage. However what the media covers is not the be all end all. If you as a United fan can tell Nani is making vital contributions to the team, then trust your eyes.

The same goes for Evans. I don't need to read it in a news column or football article to know the value of Evans to United. Nor should any other United fan if they watch enough of our games. He's been great this season and his abilities make him better than a decent PL centreback.

This idea that you need to be widely recognized to be considered good is shite to me. When you see good performances, what other justification do you need to know you have a good player on your hands?

When Bale won the PFA player over Nani in 10/11 I believe, I think that sums up the bullshit of being widely recognized. Nani definitely had a better season than Bale but we all know who got more attention.
 
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