John Murtough Sack Watch

devilish said:
I haven't done deep research on Ashworth yet but from the little I read about his role at WBA and Brighton he was basically a DOF there.

https://www.expressandstar.com/spor...-reveals-how-he-found-diamonds-for-west-brom/

https://www.ucfb.ac.uk/news/brighton-s-dan-ashworth-describes-role-of-technical-director/



Murtough at Everton. He was more of a development/academy guy

https://www.transfermarkt.com/john-murtough/profil/trainer/100862

Also the way he treated Butt and SAF is beyond hilarious and that's coming from someone who had criticized too much legends involvement in the club. To literally backstab Nicky Butt + not allowing SAF ample time to talk to Jude Bellingham is both stupid and counterproductive
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What are you doing? I told you several times what both of their roles were before becoming sporting directors. They were both development/academy guys and also both had experience in the recruitment side of things, they both landed jobs as head of elite development one was with the FA and the other for the PL, they have both been technical directors for PL clubs. Ashworth is seemingly better at the DOF job but it's not due to a lack or a different experience to Murtough's, if I was to guess I would say that it's probably due to two different personalities.

And to be clear the point isn't to say that Murtough is competent or shouldn't be sacked but that his lack of competence as a DOF has nothing to do with a lack of experience "in the field", that's the one thing that he absolutely has. The question marks are elsewhere, his ability to be at the top and take decisions for everyone, his ability to formulate a plan and follow it in spite of hurdles. As others have suggested it looks like a typical case of someone being appointed above his station.
 
JPRouve said:
What are you doing? I told you several times what both of their roles were before becoming sporting directors. They were both development/academy guys and also both had experience in the recruitment side of things, they both landed jobs as head of elite development one was with the FA and the other for the PL, they have both been technical directors for PL clubs. Ashworth is seemingly better at the DOF job but it's not due to a lack or a different experience to Murtough's, if I was to guess I would say that it's probably due to two different personalities.

And to be clear the point isn't to say that Murtough is competent or shouldn't be sacked but that his lack of competence as a DOF has nothing to do with a lack of experience "in the field", that's the one thing that he absolutely has. The question marks are elsewhere, his ability to be at the top and take decisions for everyone, his ability to formulate a plan and follow it in spite of hurdles. As others have suggested it looks like a typical case of someone being appointed above his station.
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Ah OK fair enough. Having said that, ashworth had the luck/brilliance to start as dof at a smaller club and then move up the ranks (wba, Brighton, Newcastle and maybe us). Murtough's first role as DOF was with us
 
devilish said:
Ah OK fair enough. Having said that, ashworth had the luck/brilliance to start as dof at a smaller club and then move up the ranks (wba, Brighton, Newcastle and maybe us). Murtough's first role as DOF was with us
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Which could be due to their characters and clubs seeing something in a younger Ashworth that they didn't see in Murtough or Murtough never applied for such jobs that haven't really been common in the UK. Either way the difference isn't their professional background and experience because that's the one thing that is fairly similar between them which from what I have seen for years is also the least important because successful DOFs come from a multitude of backgrounds and often have little experience before being successful, it's the part that we, fans, can't see that is key.
 
should be sacked on the spot
Antony 95m. Mount 60m. Letting Jude slip away. Crimes against football.
 
"we should be giving them a chance" - one of the responses here when we questioned these appointments. Who knew inexperienced people would feck up things so bad
 
Someone at the club is obviously doing a hit job on Mutough. It’s very Manchester United, we can’t just sack someone with no fuss, it has to be a big public circus with a “PR win” at the end. Idiotic. The club is full of morons.
 
The sad thing is that it's so bloody easy to see that those appointments are wrong - Solskjaer as a permanent manager, Murtough as DOF - and yet there's no one at the club to raise a red flag and prevent it, thus damaging us for years. Says a lot about the cluelessness at United.
 
Giggsyking said:
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This hit-piece on Murtough is infuriating and encouraging at the same time.

I do not doubt the credibility of these claims because Whitwell is a very respectable journalist with sources at the club. He prioritises his reliability and getting the right information out there rather than taking the risk of being the first to get the scoop without verified information.

The fact that such an incompetent man has had so much unchecked power at the club without any accountability is infuriating. How dare you treat SAF in this manner? Disrespecting SAF is a sackable offence alone. Murtough’s alleged pushing of Nicky Butt out of the club is also a red flag. I struggle to understand the logic of destroying any sense of continuity from our glory era to give the keys to a bunch of charlatans and frauds.

The encouraging thing is the timing of this hit-piece, however. On the eve of INEOS’ partial takeover, it seems that the fanbase is getting prepared for the first big decision: Murtough out.

This would also leave questions marks over Ten Hag’s future. Whitwell has said before on a podcast that Ten Hag is Murtough’s man and that it would look bad if he pulls the plug on him considering he did so on Ole and the Ralf interim period did not work out and nor did Ralf remain even as a consultant.

I’m personally hoping that INEOS pulls the plug on both Murtough and Ten Hag and starts a fresh chapter although getting rid of the latter may be an unpopular initial move given that most of the fanbase wants to see him given a shot with a proper structure in place.
 
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THE ZOL said:
I’m personally hoping that INEOS pulls the plug on both Murtough and Ten Hag and starts a fresh chapter although getting rid of the latter may be an unpopular initial move given that most of the fanbase wants to see him given a shot with a proper structure in place.
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Given the absence of any credible alternatives to ETH at the moment, why not give ETH give a shot with a proper structure in place? It's not as though we're missing out on the next Ferguson, Guardiola or Klopp by not sacking him right now.
 
lex talionis said:
Given the absence of any credible alternatives to ETH at the moment, why not give ETH give a shot with a proper structure in place? It's not as though we're missing out on the next Ferguson, Guardiola or Klopp by not sacking him right now.
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:lol:
 
The timing of the article is ominous.

Bell's are ringing for Murtough. It a well timed article to get rid of him. Well , if we want to be professional than his head should roll. He has been overlooking this shambles for far too long.

Too many false dawn's. Let's see what this one with SJR at the helm brings .
 
lex talionis said:
Given the absence of any credible alternatives to ETH at the moment, why not give ETH give a shot with a proper structure in place? It's not as though we're missing out on the next Ferguson, Guardiola or Klopp by not sacking him right now.
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He can’t control the structure, but he should be held accountable for the things he had control: the tactics, training team and squad selection, player morale etc.

If he can turn it around with a new structure in place, it would be great. But I am not confident that he will and I think the new regime will scrutinise him especially considering that he may be seen as Murtough’s guy.

We need a fresh start.
 
ColvaleGoa said:
The timing of the article is ominous.

Bell's are ringing for Murtough. It a well timed article to get rid of him. Well , if we want to be professional than his head should roll. He has been overlooking this shambles for far too long.

Too many false dawn's. Let's see what this one with SJR at the helm brings .
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Is that right that he came from Everton along with Moyes?
 
Moriarty said:
Is that right that he came from Everton along with Moyes?
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Yep. Not only that but he stayed after Moyes got sacked because he made himself useful to Woodward by, I kid you not, taking notes for him in meetings and talking him through technical aspects of football.

Then, as power became concentrated in the hands of the Murtough-Woodward axis, SAF lost a lot of influence. Not only that, buy SAF loyalists or generally people who spoke out about Murtough’s amateur handling of football operations were quitely sidelined or removed. These include Nicky Butt and Sir Alex’s trusted chief scout Jim Lawlor (alongside LvG’s one in Marcel Bout).

Murtough is a good politician, I’ll give him that. He made himself useful to the real powerful decision-makers at the club. Sir Alex tried to get him replaced but the powers that be were loyal to Murtough (perhaps because he covered for their incompetence!).
 
Stories like this make me think/pray that Ratcliffe/Blanc want rid of Murtough (and rightly so) so they can bring in Ashworth as their Director Of Football, it’s obvious Murtough has no business in a role like has at United and his incompetence is being shown publicly before he’s fired.
 
THE ZOL said:
Yep. Not only that but he stayed after Moyes got sacked because he made himself useful to Woodward by, I kid you not, taking notes for him in meetings and talking him through technical aspects of football.

Then, as power became concentrated in the hands of the Murtough-Woodward axis, SAF lost a lot of influence. Not only that, buy SAF loyalists or generally people who spoke out about Murtough’s amateur handling of football operations were quitely sidelined or removed. These include Nicky Butt and Sir Alex’s trusted chief scout Jim Lawlor (alongside LvG’s one in Marcel Bout).

Murtough is a good politician, I’ll give him that. He made himself useful to the real powerful decision-makers at the club. Sir Alex tried to get him replaced but the powers that be were loyal to Murtough (perhaps because he covered for their incompetence!).
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Unreal isn't it? A club as big as United puts up with Woodward's groom of the stool as DoF.
 
Moriarty said:
Unreal isn't it? A club as big as United puts up with Woodward's groom of the stool as DoF.
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The thing that upsets me most is that we had a competent winning structure right there even in the absence of SAF and David Gill. Incompetent people decided to dismantle that winning machine totally in order to go on a power trip that was detrimental to the club. Hopefully Sir Jim can clean up the mess.
 
THE ZOL said:
The thing that upsets me most is that we had a competent winning structure right there even in the absence of SAF and David Gill. Incompetent people decided to dismantle that winning machine totally in order to go on a power trip that was detrimental to the club. Hopefully Sir Jim can clean up the mess.
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Yep. We were the reigning league champions, a team that with a new face here and there was capable of holding the fort for a season or two. Gill told a bare-faced lie when asked about Fergie's successor some years before the great man retired. He stated that a plan was in place and that the man would be a proven winner with European experience. The mistakes made by Matt Busby would not be repeated, oh no!
 
RedBanker said:
:lol:
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He's not entirely wrong though. Laugh all you want, but way more successful managers than ETH have failed to bring any semblance of a title challenge in the last ten years either. Every manager since Ferguson has been part of the circus. You can go ahead and name a few managers that you think would manage the club better right now?
I predict INEOS will keep ETH.
And the plus side is whatever happens, the circus is nearly over.
 
Moriarty said:
Yep. We were the reigning league champions, a team that with a new face here and there was capable of holding the fort for a season or two. Gill told a bare-faced lie when asked about Fergie's successor some years before the great man retired. He stated that a plan was in place and that the man would be a proven winner with European experience. The mistakes made by Matt Busby would not be repeated, oh no!
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It might have been earlier than this but LVG was supposed to replace SAF at one point, then he didn't retire and that disappeared. If it's the rough timeline, Gill was probably not being deliberately dishonest and you'd imagine we were speaking to many coaches informally.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
It might have been earlier than this but LVG was supposed to replace SAF at one point, then he didn't retire and that disappeared. If it's the rough timeline, Gill was probably not being deliberately dishonest and you'd imagine we were speaking to many coaches informally.
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It was Sven Goran-Eriksson who was supposed to replace SAF if I remember correctly.
 
JPRouve said:
It was Sven Goran-Eriksson who was supposed to replace SAF if I remember correctly.
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Both him and LVG say they had an agreement in place in 2002. I’m not sure if that’s when the poster is talking about though as is quite some time ago.
 
I cannot fecking wait until we get an actual DoF. Murtough is completely clueless and is simply a yes man of the Glazers. Once they’re gone, we can hopefully get someone who actually knows how to do the job in, because up until then we’ve had to have the manager deciding transfers. EtH isn’t blameless, but he is severely hamstrung by the people above him, as the people at the top don’t even care about football. It’d be like if some English billionaire who didn’t even care about American football bought some NFL team. The players throw every manager under the bus, but they’re only able to because of the fact that they know that they’ll outlast the manager because of the toxic culture fomented by the Glazers.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Both him and LVG say they had an agreement in place in 2002. I’m not sure if that’s when the poster is talking about though as is quite some time ago.
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Gill wasn't the CEO then so I doubt he was talking about such things at the time. He only replaced Peter Kenyon in 2003, when we had no need for a manager any longer.

The reality of the matter is that the club couldn't really plan who would replaced SAF because no one knew when he would retire. The plan they should have worked on was making structural changes once Fergie retired, but that would have been too perfect. I'm not sure any sporting club in the world would have been ready with such changes the moment a successful manager leaves after so many years.
 
JPRouve said:
What are you doing? I told you several times what both of their roles were before becoming sporting directors. They were both development/academy guys and also both had experience in the recruitment side of things, they both landed jobs as head of elite development one was with the FA and the other for the PL, they have both been technical directors for PL clubs. Ashworth is seemingly better at the DOF job but it's not due to a lack or a different experience to Murtough's, if I was to guess I would say that it's probably due to two different personalities.

And to be clear the point isn't to say that Murtough is competent or shouldn't be sacked but that his lack of competence as a DOF has nothing to do with a lack of experience "in the field", that's the one thing that he absolutely has. The question marks are elsewhere, his ability to be at the top and take decisions for everyone, his ability to formulate a plan and follow it in spite of hurdles. As others have suggested it looks like a typical case of someone being appointed above his station.
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Agree.
Murtough is incompetent in the role here. That’s shown by the last two transfer windows. But, it doesn’t mean a guy without previous experience in the role shouldn’t be considered. Eventually, it’s about the skill set to be capable.
 
JPRouve said:
Which could be due to their characters and clubs seeing something in a younger Ashworth that they didn't see in Murtough or Murtough never applied for such jobs that haven't really been common in the UK. Either way the difference isn't their professional background and experience because that's the one thing that is fairly similar between them which from what I have seen for years is also the least important because successful DOFs come from a multitude of backgrounds and often have little experience before being successful, it's the part that we, fans, can't see that is key.
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Life is all about opportunities. Murtough came to United in a relatively minor role. He caught Woodward/Joel's eyes who in turn was enough for him to land such prestigious job. That was his winning national lottery for him. Ashworth had to work his way from the bottom which turned down to be a blessing but might have easily turned into a curse (ie he got stuck at WBA). Let us not forget that Ashworth has yet to work at a top club. If the roles were reversed then maybe things would be different for the two although I doubt that a half decent dof would treat saf the way Murtough did. That is plain stupid irrespective of experience

Ultimately as I said throughout the years the job is simply too big for a rookie with no previous experience to take it. United is the most scrutinised club in the world, our football structure was stuck in the 70s and our owners/Ceo were clueless. We needed a WC dof.

Experience does play a role though. I am pretty sure that Newcastle Ashworth is a different beast to wba Ashworth just as post treble SAF was a different beast to motherwell SAF. Experience change people and in roles like that such experience is necessary as it gives them the time needed to build their pool of contacts and learn how to deal with agents with less scrutiny. No one gives a feck if wba dof goes to sao Paolo only to come back with just a souvenir. However every man and his dog would laugh at united's dof going to turin and Barcelona only to come back with nothing especially if that was done at the back of weeks if not months of negotiations.
 
THE ZOL said:
Yep. Not only that but he stayed after Moyes got sacked because he made himself useful to Woodward by, I kid you not, taking notes for him in meetings and talking him through technical aspects of football.

Then, as power became concentrated in the hands of the Murtough-Woodward axis, SAF lost a lot of influence. Not only that, buy SAF loyalists or generally people who spoke out about Murtough’s amateur handling of football operations were quitely sidelined or removed. These include Nicky Butt and Sir Alex’s trusted chief scout Jim Lawlor (alongside LvG’s one in Marcel Bout).

Murtough is a good politician, I’ll give him that. He made himself useful to the real powerful decision-makers at the club. Sir Alex tried to get him replaced but the powers that be were loyal to Murtough (perhaps because he covered for their incompetence!).
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Funny how a lot of supporters complained about Fergies influence at the club when in reality it looks like pushing him away has done more damage than good.
 
devilish said:
Life is all about opportunities. Murtough came to United in a relatively minor role. He caught Woodward/Joel's eyes who in turn was enough for him to land such prestigious job. That was his winning national lottery for him. Ashworth had to work his way from the bottom which turned down to be a blessing but might have easily turned into a curse (ie he got stuck at WBA). Let us not forget that Ashworth has yet to work at a top club. If the roles were reversed then maybe things would be different for the two although I doubt that a half decent dof would treat saf the way Murtough did. That is plain stupid irrespective of experience

Ultimately as I said throughout the years the job is simply too big for a rookie with no previous experience to take it. United is the most scrutinised club in the world, our football structure was stuck in the 70s and our owners/Ceo were clueless. We needed a WC dof.

Experience does play a role though. I am pretty sure that Newcastle Ashworth is a different beast to wba Ashworth just as post treble SAF was a different beast to motherwell SAF. Experience change people and in roles like that such experience is necessary as it gives them the time needed to build their pool of contacts and learn how to deal with agents with less scrutiny. No one gives a feck if wba dof goes to sao Paolo only to come back with just a souvenir. However every man and his dog would laugh at united's dof going to turin and Barcelona only to come back with nothing especially if that was done at the back of weeks if not months of negotiations.
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It doesn't. I challenge you to find any corrolation at the highest level between a DOF level of experience when he first took a job and his level of success. The simple fact that a very large amount of DOFs are internal appointments defies the point that you are trying to make.
 
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