Nkunku, Laimer, Alvarez, Haidara, Gvardiol, then Sesko has also been reported in various sources....
John Murtough Sack Watch
- Thread starter luke511
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You're a comparing a team with United whose sole is aim is to sign younger players and sell them on for profit. Even myself would relish working for such owners.
I know there are some obviously excellent players in that list but
at them being nearly all Red Bull.I have just watched the Muppetiers video. It really, (like the discussion here the past 48 hours, what Gary Neville has said) honed in on the fact that Ten Hag is a decent coach, but far from a great identifier of players.
Therefore, this post come in as a slight defence of Murtough. It is suggested Hojlund is the first player under the Ten Hag era that has been collectively decided upon by Murtough and the scouting department and then put to Ten Hag.
We have had to play catch up, so it was inevitable that the default option was to go to Ten Hag's choices, particularly last summer.
In defence of Ten Hag, he should not have been put in the same situation during the second summer. That falls on the Glazers and the protracted sale and Arnold and his dithering over Greenwood. The Glazers like with previous coaches have used the manager as a defence mechanism to shift responsibility onto them when things go wrong.
The same happened with Ole. Despite what people say about limitations as a coach, he did achieve a third and then second place in successive seasons. Consequently, that bit of success was used by the owners to cover the poor system above and subsequently thrust the criticisms from the media, fans etc, on the limitations of the manager.
It is simply this, the owners need to go FIRST.
Therefore, this post come in as a slight defence of Murtough. It is suggested Hojlund is the first player under the Ten Hag era that has been collectively decided upon by Murtough and the scouting department and then put to Ten Hag.
We have had to play catch up, so it was inevitable that the default option was to go to Ten Hag's choices, particularly last summer.
In defence of Ten Hag, he should not have been put in the same situation during the second summer. That falls on the Glazers and the protracted sale and Arnold and his dithering over Greenwood. The Glazers like with previous coaches have used the manager as a defence mechanism to shift responsibility onto them when things go wrong.
The same happened with Ole. Despite what people say about limitations as a coach, he did achieve a third and then second place in successive seasons. Consequently, that bit of success was used by the owners to cover the poor system above and subsequently thrust the criticisms from the media, fans etc, on the limitations of the manager.
It is simply this, the owners need to go FIRST.
Yes! Considering the financial 'limitations', such as they were, and issues we had with physical/mental attributes of Sancho on wings or as a 10, and DVB as 10, then Kamada would have made lots of sense. Thuram even more so - someone who could play as a wide forward and challenge Rashford and Garnacho but also play as a 9 and put pressure on Martial and RH. It was weird that we seemed completely uninterested in the latter....
I'm not sure why we're so bad with free transfers - again this speaks to a deeper failing than simple 'greed' within the club's set-up...
That is not their sole aim. But carry on.
I am comparing a club in Leipzeg who are aiming to win the bundesliga.
United needed a squad refresh, the squad was ageing and we had a ton of players coming to end of large contracts.
We needed to sign young players with top potential to refresh the squad. Why do you think we signed Hojlund and Antony?
Issue is we paid big money for both, this is poor recruitment. Who the hell signed off on Antony getting 200k, Sancho 350k, Mount 300k this was all under his watch
Right on, Murtough is just too weak and we are now reeling from two successive summers of big and expensive mistakes. He is the guy that should have said no to a three month long pursuit of FDJ, he had a responsibility to assess the chances of that pursuit's success by speaking to the player and then getting Ten Hag in line once he had found out that the player wasn't keen on the move.
Where he failed massively was on the Antony and Casemiro signings. He was here when Matic gave us just one top season and declined massively in the next one. He knew the risks associated with signing a player at that age and we look like we are facing the same fate. Having such an error committed by a guy from the inside who saw it happen before with Matic, Scweimsteiger et al is really disappointing. On the Antony deal he simply had to pull rank and put an end to the madness.
His biggest fault was being couped by Ten Hag, a guy who was coming into the big leagues at his invitation and who getting his wages tripled as a result. The power dynamics should have favored him but he surrendered them all and left the club exposed.
Ragnick compared to Murtough not even worth a discussion. Ragnick should have been in Murtough's position. The recruitment under ETH has been: Antony, Hojlund, Casemiro, Mount, Martinez, Onana, Malacia, Amrabat, Eriksen, Weghorst and Sabitzer to name a few and about 400M off the books.
That's almost a first 11 and the team still lack direction. There's no long-term feasibility between what the manager intends and you cannot galvanise a strategy from the players acquired. Casemiro took up a good portion of the overall spend and his position is questionable due to being on the tail end of his career. Essentially signing a player for 70M that will need replacing in a few seasons. Not a problem for a club with resources which United subsequently don't have for such approaches.
Recent reports that there was a disparity between the recruitment team over signing players with regards to Kolo-Muani, Antony and now recently reported Amrabat. They are reports so credibility comes into question but when you assess the people in charge it's not surprising if these leaks are true. It doesn't matter how many players ETH poorly identifies, the fact he's spearheading the approaches falls at the hands of Murtough as he is the superior.
That's almost a first 11 and the team still lack direction. There's no long-term feasibility between what the manager intends and you cannot galvanise a strategy from the players acquired. Casemiro took up a good portion of the overall spend and his position is questionable due to being on the tail end of his career. Essentially signing a player for 70M that will need replacing in a few seasons. Not a problem for a club with resources which United subsequently don't have for such approaches.
Recent reports that there was a disparity between the recruitment team over signing players with regards to Kolo-Muani, Antony and now recently reported Amrabat. They are reports so credibility comes into question but when you assess the people in charge it's not surprising if these leaks are true. It doesn't matter how many players ETH poorly identifies, the fact he's spearheading the approaches falls at the hands of Murtough as he is the superior.
You make some good points here. Just tell me what a streamlined effective recruitment structure entails? How did Rangnick structure things at Hoffenheim/Leipzig?
The Jadon Sancho wages were ratified in 2020 by Woodward and the head of contract/transfer negotiations Matt Judge. That was reported by Ornstein and all the main United Journos.
I'd say the mistake he made was that he should've walked away from the Antony deal for the price they were asking. And he should've waited for his recruitment structure to take shape and given himself a bigger pool of players to choose from for the RW position.
And the top players they sell end up at better placed teams than us which in itself tells us that if we bought Garvidol for peanuts and put in place the right growth path for him we wouldn't need to sell him, he'd be more than good enough to play for us.
@Adnan is being disingenuous in his arguments just to defend a set position to protect his favorite no matter what the facts on the ground show. Under Fergie we had a mix where we would scour lower leagues in Europe for unheralded talent, that's how we got Ole and guys like Berg, but also buy the superstars. It's not an alien concept, all top teams do it.
Lots of hindsight and bluster in this thread really.
Not many of the points laid out by the OP can really be attributed to Murtough, it just seems people keep trying to move the target depending on how they feel.
Not many of the points laid out by the OP can really be attributed to Murtough, it just seems people keep trying to move the target depending on how they feel.
Sancho IS NOT on fecking £350k a week....
Every fecking thread I swear there's someone peddling this myth.
Come on Man give it a rest we don't have to go into the mechanics of the RB operation to know that they are more efficient and effective at recruitment than United. Whilst they and Brighton have taken this approach a few notches up and upped their game its not exactly new. Clubs like United had a crude version of this blueprint way back in the 90s but we did it to get first team players and sell those who failed. Do you think United of today would even know Ole let alone sign him?
It was a common sense approach which could and should have been used this summer. Buy big on the striker front, rely heavily on scouting and contacts for the midfield signings given we still have Casemiro and Bruno in there we could afford to take a risk on a couple of cheap young midfielders and not blow our budget on a player coming off his worst season in his career.
He is there to stop the recruitment disaster we see unfolding. He has to go.
The way Leipzig/Salzburg have operated under Rangnick is by signing mostly teenage talents in the 16/17 age range and 18/20 age range. And those players are signed with a view to selling them on. Hence they haven't come close to winning the league. And a lot of those players only join a club like Leipzig/Salzburg due to the early first team opportunities that are dangled in front of them.
Who do you think we should've signed instead?
Sancho was obviously signed off by Woodward and Judge in 2020 according to reliable reports. And Antony is on £150k a week according to some online sites and that is likely a wage which includes all his bonuses. And the same applies to Mount who is on a basic wage which can go upto 250k a week depending on how he performs. Liverpool and Arsenal were both more than willing to match what Mount is being paid according to reports. Arsenal are said to be paying Kai Havertz even more.
What is he on?
You are telling us you needed hindsight to know Mount isnt a CM, that Antony was a risky signing and that Casemiro would need replacing a lot sooner than the length of his deal? Those were risks that were discussed at length on this board, what we are seeing unfolding right now - forget the DV issues with Antony but his failure to hit the required G+A figures, Case's decline or the difficulty of playing Mount in CM were pointed out and a guy like Murtough has more than adequate football exposure to exercise judgement on these. He didn't and let ETH walk all over him and here we are, back where we were with Mourinho.
The reason I'm asking you the question is because the answer to the question is quite telling. Because without having created a structure there can't be a streamlined approach to recruitment. The guy that ran the recruitment for Rangnick at Hoffenheim was a chap called Christian Mockel. And it was Mockel who was the main man when it came to recruiting players at Hoffenheim. And the last I read Mockel was at FC Nürnberg.
Do you even know how we signed Ole? It was by complete chance.
That's exactly what they seem to have done and hence they're taking a chance on Kobbie Mainoo. You might not agree with that but they have taken a chance on Kobbie Mainoo and potentially Hannibal.
UtdDistrict on X: " | Kees Vos’ Sport Entertainment Group have become the go-to agency in negotiating player signings and sales for #mufc , as well as providing informal advice on the transfer market – Ten Hag’s son Nigel also works for the agency as an analyst. [@MattHughesDM]" / X (twitter.com)
So what does Murtough do exactly ?
So what does Murtough do exactly ?
Now I know you are being disingenuous because now you are resorting to outright lies.
Salzburg have won the league for the past 3 seasons. Leipzeg came 2nd in the Bundesliga twice in the past 8 years as well as getting to the UCL semi final.
Their transfer strategy was different when they were in Bundesliga 2 than when they got promoted. Leipzeg actually generally sign players between 18-23 not 17/18.
It’s honestly maddening
There’s not one iota of objectivity with that poster when it comes to assessing Murtough’s reign.
All the negatives are someone else’s fault and the positives are behind the scenes activities which only they are privy to. It’s a whole load of biased bs to me.
He is just an eloquent and saner Amadeus. Or maybe he is Amadeus.
This is just nonsense, not sure why anyone would believe it.
I agree Salzburg have been very dominant and it was due to their owners. Even before Rangnick was brought to the club, Salzburg had established themselves as the dominant force in Austrian football by winning multiple league titles.
Their transfer strategy is to sign younger players for a particular method of play. The same applies to the managers they also hire. And those managers are normally also in the infancy of their careers.
Why would he be sacked when he's presumably delivering exactly what his bosses have instructed?
This isn't going to end well for ten Hag.
So what? Gary Cook doesn't know how to assemble an IPhone but that doesn't mean that if the next version is a hit he won't get the credit. That's basically what management is - doing things through and with other people. So he had a guy work for him at Hoffenheim and had Paul Newman do the legwork for him at RB. The question should be was it effective, if yes then he gets credit.
If we had settled on Kobie and Hannibal then there was never a need for Mount. The same Hannibal who was being frozen out in the summer and almost sold? Looks to me like they realised that their big midfield signing wasn't going to cut it and hence the hurried Amrabat signing and using Hannibal as a fallback option.
I thought his name was Tim Apple?
Jokes aside, I agree with a lot of your points in this thread.
I doubt Murtagh has anything to do with who we sign.
Yes he is called Director of Football but it's a joke title for him and we need a proper one who will be responsible for signings.
Yes he is called Director of Football but it's a joke title for him and we need a proper one who will be responsible for signings.
Gary Cook might not have known how to assemble a iPhone but he knew who Brian Marwood was. And it was Brian Marwood who created the football structure at Man City which is still in effect now.
And I'm not saying someone doesn't deserve credit for being a part of a large of group people who work together to create a well oiled machine. All I'm saying to you is that without having competent recruiters to lead the recruitment department, nothing would function on the recruitment side of the club. And a DoF cannot succeed at any club without top recruiters who lead the recruitment department.
There's always a need for a bigger squad and competition for places should always be seen as a positive. Bruno, Mount and Hannibal as the advanced midfielders with Mainoo, Arambat and Casemiro as the first phase players should provide the balance in midfield for now. And Eriksen can also be utilised.
I have. He was part of a few projects that ended up where we are at the moment. Not winning titles.
You think Mount deal was ridiculous?
Now I'm certain what you actually want is for the club to buy the players you want.
And our recruitment structure was overhauled by Murtough and Woodward. Murtough is now having another go as his previous attempt wasn’t fit for purpose. It’s still not fit for purpose which is entirely predictable as are the excuses and lack of accountability.
The Athletic reported at £250k a week.
The £350k a week came from the red tops and seemed to have snowballed into this permeating myth, hungrily lapped up by ravenous angry fans.
Antony isn't a risky signing, yes we overpaid, we often do, but EtH and the club knew what they were getting from Antony, so not sure how that can be seen as risky.
Casemiro has had a slow start to the season, doesn't mean he is suddenly in decline, that's hyperbole and a symptom of the situation we are in.
Mount for me is a good signing, brought in to support the way EtH wants us to transition.
I get it, fans are emotional and rightly so, things are not great right now.
But the kneejerk reactions and over the top conclusions are a tad worrying considering the season we had a mere few months ago.
Murtough is just another consequence of the Glazer Apocalypse(just as Woodward was). Totally incompetent at his job, so he just gives ETH who he wants and ETH doesn't seem to be a good talent evaluator. Murtough should have more power over ETH in terms of recruitment, but it's the opposite and that's the problem.
ETH's job should just be setting up tactics and choosing the right players from the assembled squad by DoF(Murtough) to different games/circumstances. Ten Hag shouldn't bother with recruitment at all, but he's somehow our chief scout and head of recruitment...
Murtough will be sacked as soon as Glazers leave, if/when they leave. Be sure about that.
ETH's job should just be setting up tactics and choosing the right players from the assembled squad by DoF(Murtough) to different games/circumstances. Ten Hag shouldn't bother with recruitment at all, but he's somehow our chief scout and head of recruitment...
Murtough will be sacked as soon as Glazers leave, if/when they leave. Be sure about that.
We revamped our scouting in 2016/17 and you're correct it was John Murtough who led the process with a head hunting firm. But the scouts that were brought to the club either joined the structure at first team level with Lawlor and Bout leading that structure at first team level, and both men reported to Woodward directly. Lawlor had been at the club since 2005 after Les Kershaw retired as the chief scout. And Bout was brought to the club by LVG and was part of Van Gaal's backroom staff.
Murtough created the recruitment structure at youth level where he put David Harrison (ex Man City) in charge of recruitment and the likes of Gerrardo Guzman (Spain), Jerome Klein (France), Rene Moonen, (Holland), Glynn Kenny (ex City), James Harker, Stephen Ajewole (ex City) and Jamaahl Jarret beiing some of the names that made up the recruitment structure at youth level.
His club won titles. Clearly you did not read enough
Yep. Winning the Austrian Bundesliga by outspending everyone else is a top achievement. Where are his trophies from the German Bundesliga?
Sure, sack John, but who do we replace him with?
Let me get this right. The upper management and entire scouting network, had 1 full year to scout players, and Hojlund is the only name they could bring to the table?
This is one that folks just accept and regurgitate, and I've always wondered why it's not challenged more often