Joe Allen to the dippers?

I'm sure a lot with disagree but I see him as a more complete player than Cleverley right now, as he provides a lot more defensive work while both are good at retaining the ball and mostly neat passes, Allen was creating more chances too. There's also the added benefit of not being injured as often.

As for Adam, he's done fine for Liverpool and its quite possible for both to play together. Adam has played the deeper role for Blackpool at times and Allen for GB.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The comparison was about them being big fish in a small pond.
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OK that's fair enough. That comparison does make sense.

In my defense I think you could have worded it better. When you say he's "Adam with speed" it sounds like you're comparing them as players, that they're the same type of player apart from the fact that Allen is quicker.
 
Adam has shown himself to be an egotistical twat. Or, if not egostistical, then brainless. He plays like a 19-year-old Steven Gerrard, always looking for the hollywood pass. Except he doesn't have gerrard's pace, athleticism, vision, technique or passing ability to excuse this mentality. His decisionmaking is absolutely dreadful.

I'll give him that he has workrate, though his poor positioning and total lack of pace nullifies much of what that would otherwise bring to his game, and he has a very strong mentality - He is always up for the games that need players to step up and he is never one to crawl into his shell after a poor pass - though you really do wish he would crawl into his shell more often. Watching him misplace umpteen 'killer' passes and then try for another is agonising.

There is just way too many deficiencies in Adam's game for this level. I said as much when we signed him and hoped he'd keep developing to efface it, but it hasn't happened. He is an impact luxury player without the needed skill to be that player at this level.

He's basically a fat less skilful and less intelligent Luis Garcia.

Allen strikes me as an upgrade on Henderson. Good player, wellrounded and will probably fit in well and be asset to our team for where we are now. But you have to think there are better players out there with a higher ceiling to their talent than Allen in that price range. Hopefully I am wrong and Allen is the closest thing to the next Alonso out there.
 
Coca Cola said:
OK that's fair enough. That comparison does make sense.

In my defense I think you could have worded it better. When you say he's "Adam with speed" it sounds like you're comparing them as players, that they're the same type of player apart from the fact that Allen is quicker.
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I agree I should have worded it better
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
No. That was a fiction of your imagination. I never get why people equate lack of natural work rate with egotism. If Adam was egotistical it would have showed at Liverpool too. It's not a character trait one can switch off at will
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He really is an 'egotistical twat' - I am sure of this. He thinks he is a far better player than he is, plenty of Liverpool fans that I know, agree with this. How you can even dispute this is quite frankly, bizarre.
 
Ekeke said:
I'm sure a lot with disagree but I see him as a more complete player than Cleverley right now, as he provides a lot more defensive work while both are good at retaining the ball and mostly neat passes, Allen was creating more chances too. There's also the added benefit of not being injured as often.

As for Adam, he's done fine for Liverpool and its quite possible for both to play together. Adam has played the deeper role for Blackpool at times and Allen for GB.
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Good point. He's at least as good as Cleverly, who a lot of United fans seemed to think would be the answer to our midfield issues.

Allen's not a world beater but he's very tidy and can play the style of possession football Rodgers likes.
 
I agree with the general opinion on Allen really. Not a World beater but a very neat and tidy player and an upgrade on pretty much everyone else in the Liverpool midfield.

He could easily go on to be their Carrick, Barry etc. Granted they already have that in Lucas but as shown by last season, once he got injured they went to absolute shit because they had to play Jay Spearing.
 
RedRover said:
Good point. He's at least as good as Cleverly, who a lot of United fans seemed to think would be the answer to our midfield issues.

Allen's not a world beater but he's very tidy and can play the style of possession football Rodgers likes.
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I thought that Clev was comfortably better than him last night and I think that Clev has more potential to offer more as a creative midfielder too.
 
cw1984 said:
I agree with the general opinion on Allen really. Not a World beater but a very neat and tidy player and an upgrade on pretty much everyone else in the Liverpool midfield.

He could easily go on to be their Carrick, Barry etc. Granted they already have that in Lucas but as shown by last season, once he got injured they went to absolute shit because they had to play Jay Spearing.
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Lucas isn't anything like Carrick.
 
They aren't all that dissimilar. Obviously Carrick is superior and has more too his game but Lucas' job in that midfield is to protect the back 4 and recycle posession which is Carrick's main duty in ours.
 
Ekeke said:
I'm sure a lot with disagree but I see him as a more complete player than Cleverley right now, as he provides a lot more defensive work while both are good at retaining the ball and mostly neat passes, Allen was creating more chances too. There's also the added benefit of not being injured as often.
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I'm sure a lot will too, mainly because it's a stupid comparison. Allen has 7 goals in 130 appearances for Swansea. Cleverley scored 11 goals in just 33 appearances while he was at Watford (4 in 25 at Wigan). There's a reason for this discrepancy. The comment about Allen "creating more chances" is horseshit btw.

As for Adam, he's done fine for Liverpool and its quite possible for both to play together. Adam has played the deeper role for Blackpool at times and Allen for GB.
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No he hasn't.
 
I don't think he's as good either (he's nearly 2 years younger though) but goals really aren't a fair way to compare them. You'd expect Cleverley to provide goals from his position, not so much Allen. It's like comparing Scholes and Carrick.
 
Cina said:
I don't think he's as good either (he's nearly 2 years younger though) but goals really aren't a fair way to compare them. You'd expect Cleverley to provide goals from his position, not so much Allen. It's like comparing Scholes and Carrick.
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Like I said, it's a stupid comparison. Which was bound to get criticism when you describe a player as being "more complete" than someone who has a completely different role for the team.

As it happens, I've been very impressed with Allen this tournament. He's actually the type of player I think we need to sign. Cover for Carrick. Cleverley is a very different player, though, with a lot more attacking qualities to his game.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
I thought that Clev was comfortably better than him last night and I think that Clev has more potential to offer more as a creative midfielder too.
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That word "potential" - means nothing unless it's fulfilled. Big season for Cleverly this year and hopefully he can stay fit.

Currently there's not a lot of difference between the two. I can see why teams are interested in him to be fair, moves the ball well, and you'd know what you were going to get - does the simple things well.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Like I said, it's a stupid comparison. Which was bound to get criticism when you describe a player as being "more complete" than someone who has a completely different role for the team.

As it happens, I've been very impressed with Allen this tournament. He's actually the type of player I think we need to sign. Cover for Carrick. Cleverley is a very different player, though, with a lot more attacking qualities to his game.
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I agree with all of that. I actually think it's strange that we haven't been linked. Young, British, playing internationally and linked with Liverpool, exactly what SAF loves.

Our transfer dealings this Summer have truly left me bemused at times.
 
Cina said:
I don't think he's as good either (he's nearly 2 years younger though) but goals really aren't a fair way to compare them. You'd expect Cleverley to provide goals from his position, not so much Allen. It's like comparing Scholes and Carrick.
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Nit-picking but Cleverley is only 7 months older than Allen.
 
A lot of underrating Cleverley here.
Same like Welbeck was, and still is to some.
Prob came from the same people.
 
RedRover said:
That word "potential" - means nothing unless it's fulfilled. Big season for Cleverly this year and hopefully he can stay fit.

Currently there's not a lot of difference between the two. I can see why teams are interested in him to be fair, moves the ball well, and you'd know what you were going to get - does the simple things well.
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I'd agree with you on that.

They both are neat and tidy but need to show a bit more and at the higher levels.
 
Wan said:
A lot of underrating Cleverley here.
Same like Welbeck was, and still is to some.
Prob came from the same people.
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Why?

Looks a decent player so far, but hasn't set the world alight. Clearly has a lot of potential but needs to develop if he's going to get to the required level to be a United regular.

Too many are too quick to label players. No need to do it - give the lad time.
 
I'd say, on the evidence available, that Allen and Cleverley's about on par.

Of course, that sample evidence is a whole lot bigger in Allen's case. Cleverley's played about.. 5 matches for United.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Cleverley's career didn't start last season. Nor did Allen's.
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Of course not, but last season was the first time the pair of them played in central midfield in the Premier League. Cleverley might have played one or two matches there for Wigan, but I didn't see him there.

So, if you'll allow me to run the rule over these lovely pair of blokes, using what I've seen of them, I'd say they are about on par.

If I had to tip one of them for becoming the better player I'd say Cleverley, I still think his top level will be higher than Allen's. Might be wishful thinking.
 
marjen said:
Of course not, but last season was the first time the pair of them played in central midfield in the Premier League. Cleverley might have played one or two matches there for Wigan, but I didn't see him there.

So, if you'll allow me to run the rule over these lovely pair of blokes, using what I've seen of them, I'd say they are about on par.

If I had to tip one of them for becoming the better player I'd say Cleverley, I still think his top level will be higher than Allen's. Might be wishful thinking.
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Some people may call me partisan but I'd say Cleverley is clearly the better player. In many ways the two are similar but there are three areas that mark Cleverley out:
  • His ability to hit passes (3 unstoppable through balls yesterday, 2 to Sordell, 1 to Sturridge for the goal)
  • His decision making
  • His close control and ability under pressure

You can make a good argument that Allen is almost as good as Cleverley at keeping things ticking and moving the ball but he lacks Cleverley's ability to play incisive passes through tight spaces, he also has a tendency to be over ambitious and hit long passes for no reason, and he shows less appetite to take the ball in tight spaces and less ability to turn away from markers when closed down.

Allen's a very good player, he and Cleverley are forming a good understanding, and he will be a good buy for Liverpool. He's certainly better than Charlie Adam from what I've seen (and some of what went to the Euro's for England besides!) but he's not as good as Cleverley.
 
#07 said:
Some people may call me partisan but I'd say Cleverley is clearly the better player. In many ways the two are similar but there are three areas that mark Cleverley out:
  • His ability to hit passes (3 unstoppable through balls yesterday, 2 to Sordell, 1 to Sturridge for the goal)
  • His decision making
  • His close control and ability under pressure

You can make a good argument that Allen is almost as good as Cleverley at keeping things ticking and moving the ball but he lacks Cleverley's ability to play incisive passes through tight spaces, he also has a tendency to be over ambitious and hit long passes for no reason, and he shows less appetite to take the ball in tight spaces and less ability to turn away from markers when closed down.

Allen's a very good player, he and Cleverley are forming a good understanding, and he will be a good buy for Liverpool. He's certainly better than Charlie Adam from what I've seen (and some of what went to the Euro's for England besides!) but he's not as good as Cleverley.
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Yeah, the one thing that do separate them when I talk about potential is Cleverley's ability to make something happen and spot a through ball.

Allen is a more experienced and consistant performer in the Premier League though. We don't really know if Cleverley can do it week in week out in CM, do we?
 
marjen said:
Yeah, the one thing that do separate them when I talk about potential is Cleverley's ability to make something happen and spot a through ball.

Allen is a more experienced and consistant performer in the Premier League though. We don't really know if Cleverley can do it week in week out in CM, do we?
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I'd say there were good signs until Kevin Davies saw fit to take him out from behind. Even when Tom was rushed back half fit following the City defeat away at Everton the improvement in our midfield play was obvious and made even more so by how bad we became at Goodison after he went off with a recurrence on the ankle.

Joe Allen is a very good player and I certainly think he's got more about him than someone like Gareth Barry. I don't think he's someone who will be "found out" playing at a higher level than he has so far. However, from what I've seen the same and more can be said about Tom Cleverley.
 
Allen is a good player from the little I have seen of him. He and Lucas will definately form a decent partnership for a mid-table side. Good signing for Liverpool I'd say.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'm sure a lot will too, mainly because it's a stupid comparison. Allen has 7 goals in 130 appearances for Swansea. Cleverley scored 11 goals in just 33 appearances while he was at Watford (4 in 25 at Wigan). There's a reason for this discrepancy. The comment about Allen "creating more chances" is horseshit btw.



No he hasn't.
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It's just him listing how Allen compares to him in terms of stats, basically. He 'created more chances' because his 'key passes' rate was higher, although I don't think it's ever been shown that key passes are a particularly useful stat. Allen's key passes per game stat was 1.3, the same as Anderson's. Cleverley's was 0.5. I don't think Anderson's shown himself to be more creative than Cleverley so I think it's pretty foolish to suggest Allen is too on the basis of that. Fletcher had 1.1 last season, the same as Scholes and more than Carrick...so he's a more creative player. Right.
 
Brwned said:
It's just him listing how Allen compares to him in terms of stats, basically. He 'created more chances' because his 'key passes' rate was higher, although I don't think it's ever been shown that key passes are a particularly useful stat. Allen's key passes per game stat was 1.3, the same as Anderson's. Cleverley's was 0.5. I don't think Anderson's shown himself to be more creative than Cleverley so I think it's pretty foolish to suggest Allen is too on the basis of that. Fletcher had 1.1 last season, the same as Scholes and more than Carrick...so he's a more creative player. Right.
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Have to say that "key passes" is a new one to me. Having previously defended the concept of assists as a useful bit of information, it certainly looks as though this latest weapon in the stats nerd armoury is a load of old bollox.
 
Indeed. More than anything because it's so ambiguous that those who're using it generally don't even know what it means. Kevin Davies featured at the top of the list in the Times' (or something similar) one for multiple seasons but you'd have to be mad to suggest he's 'creative'. It's never looked particularly useful.
 
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