Joao Neves | signed for PSG

[Adnan]

Rodri is a long way from being a Kante and Jorginho no longer plays for Chelsea and MacAllister no longer plays for Brighton. They both play in the holding midfield roles now, and are not really exposed because their teams don’t leave ‘large open spaces’ in the centre of the park.

It was mentioned on commentary in just about every game this season that we’ve had suicidal tactics and left huge spaces between our midfield and defence that made us easy to attack. It was unanimously agreed to be a terrible set-up and not something that we should be doing. Other top teams appear to compress the field, and commit players forward as you have mentioned by pretty much playing all 10 in the opponents half, not by playing a low block and then sending 7 men into the final third on the basis that they have a DM that can cover the space. Because they don’t, and can’t.

Rodri is definitely very different to Kante and is utilised very differently in possession. But he plays in a team that dominates the ball but he's strong in the duel and covers space fine. He doesn't have issues covering space and does his job fine. The issue City had was that their wide channel defending in a higher line became a weakness hence players were replaced in the first line.

The idea isn't to leave large space between the midfield and defensive lines, but rather leave the large space behind the CBs in a higher line where you're compact as a team which will allow the team to compress the pitch. And when you play like that, you're playing with a higher element of risk because the opponent's transitions are going to hit hard. And those transitions can come about when you lose the ball or the opponent plays out of a press and 5 or 6 of your players are out of the game in that passage of play and the plsyers at the back will then have to contain that situation. And the teams who can contain the transition in 1v1 situations in the channels and centrally, will be successful in the league like Arsenal, Liverpool and City. When the opponent's transitions keep failing then you as a team will pin them in their own half even with midfielders like Wijnaldum and Henderson who did the basics very well.

I can't speak on what the commentary teams were saying and they very rarely provide solutions to why things are happening the way they're. But for me I've spoken about it before, and what ten Hag was trying to do was to get the ball forward quickly to the attackers to minimise mistakes in the build up phase with your best players out injured as far as ball progression is concerned. And top of that he was bringing Kobbie Mainoo through who also missed the first few months of the season.

So imo ten Hag had to change strategy with injuries to three of his most technical players on the ball in Martinez, Shaw and Mainoo. So the tactic itself of bypassing the midfield and getting the ball forward with the high press being a defensive mechanism became the go to strategy. But why it failed was on two things, the CBs just weren't comfortable at stepping up from the back to close off the space behind the midfielders and the high press strategy upon losing the ball wasn't good enough with one player not even bothering to apply the press and close off the space. That then causes the additional problem where the fullback(s) don't join in with the high press because the CBs aren't comfortable stepping up behind the midfielders. So buying Onana and loaning Amrabat also looks bad now with injuries to Martinez and Shaw, because ten Hag quite clearly was developing the team to dominate the game on the ball.

For too long we've been playing a very Conservative game since Fergie retired. And we actually really needed our best players on the ball available in the season. And no matter what anyone says to me, we couldn't replace the technical quality of both Martinez and Shaw. And if your first line is vulnerable on the ball, then there will be no stability as far as playing from the back is concerned and it's probably better to then play a more direct game rather than struggle to progress play in the build up with players who aren't the best on the ball as far as circum-navigating the opponent's high press.

I want Man Utd to develop the team to dominate the ball and dominate the transitions out of possession. But you need the right players to fit the jigsaw as far toppling the top teams who have developed well balanced teams. And eventhough Adam Wharton may not be ready to start week in week out for us, I would take a chance on him.

 

[JE-365]

I wonder if we can negotiate like €60m + €15-€20m for ballon dor top 30 list + €15m-€20m for 25 international caps + €15m-€20m if we make it to CL spot in either 24/25 or 25/26 to match the valuation of £85m - £100m.

 

[Rozay]

Rodri is definitely very different to Kante and is utilised very differently in possession. But he plays in a team that dominates the ball but he's strong in the duel and covers space fine. He doesn't have issues covering space and does his job fine. The issue City had was that their wide channel defending in a higher line became a weakness hence players were replaced in the first line.

The idea isn't to leave large space between the midfield and defensive lines, but rather leave the large space behind the CBs in a higher line where you're compact as a team which will allow the team to compress the pitch. And when you play like that, you're playing with a higher element of risk because the opponent's transitions are going to hit hard. And those transitions can come about when you lose the ball or the opponent plays out of a press and 5 or 6 of your players are out of the game in that passage of play and the plsyers at the back will then have to contain that situation. And the teams who can contain the transition in 1v1 situations in the channels and centrally, will be successful in the league like Arsenal, Liverpool and City. When the opponent's transitions keep failing then you as a team will pin them in their own half even with midfielders like Wijnaldum and Henderson who did the basics very well.

I can't speak on what the commentary teams were saying and they very rarely provide solutions to why things are happening the way they're. But for me I've spoken about it before, and what ten Hag was trying to do was to get the ball forward quickly to the attackers to minimise mistakes in the build up phase with your best players out injured as far as ball progression is concerned. And top of that he was bringing Kobbie Mainoo through who also missed the first few months of the season.

So imo ten Hag had to change strategy with injuries to three of his most technical players on the ball in Martinez, Shaw and Mainoo. So the tactic itself of bypassing the midfield and getting the ball forward with the high press being a defensive mechanism became the go to strategy. But why it failed was on two things, the CBs just weren't comfortable at stepping up from the back to close off the space behind the midfielders and the high press strategy upon losing the ball wasn't good enough with one player not even bothering to apply the press and close off the space. That then causes the additional problem where the fullback(s) don't join in with the high press because the CBs aren't comfortable stepping up behind the midfielders. So buying Onana and loaning Amrabat also looks bad now with injuries to Martinez and Shaw, because ten Hag quite clearly was developing the team to dominate the game on the ball.

For too long we've been playing a very Conservative game since Fergie retired. And we actually really needed our best players on the ball available in the season. And no matter what anyone says to me, we couldn't replace the technical quality of both Martinez and Shaw. And if your first line is vulnerable on the ball, then there will be no stability as far as playing from the back is concerned and it's probably better to then play a more direct game rather than struggle to progress play in the build up with players who aren't the best on the ball as far as circum-navigating the opponent's high press.

I want Man Utd to develop the team to dominate the ball and dominate the transitions out of possession. But you need the right players to fit the jigsaw as far toppling the top teams who have developed well balanced teams. And eventhough Adam Wharton may not be ready to start week in week out for us, I would take a chance on him.

I don’t disagree, my point was, even by your own explanation - the large space covering is far more of a responsibility of the centre halves than of the DM. The DM should not have to be covering large spaces at all, the problem was, ours has been asked to, and the criticism has seemingly been that Casemiro is finished because he can’t play in midfield alone.

Ten Hag’s tactics have been poor because he hasn’t played a particularly high line, and has also played an extremely high midfield. Two or three passes, and opponents are running at our defence in acres of space. That isn’t a Casemiro problem, it’s a Ten Hag one. To bring it back to the point, it will not be a problem for Joao Neves either, unless he is simply asked to defend an entire third of the pitch on his own.

City, Arsenal and Liverpool do not play like this at all. They push midfielders high, but they are discerning enough to move a defender in-field alongside their DM to ensure no isolation. Rodri doesn’t control the transitions against City, Kyle Walker does, and it’s pretty much his sole purpose in the team and they are difficult to score against on the counter because of Walker, not Rodri. Rodri is a good player and can win duels and can do the work expected of a DM, but he’s not the anti-transition monster that was Kanté, and does not close large spaces in the same way. He is structurally protected by a set up with common sense that doesn’t leave him alone. He has John Stones in DM next to him.

Hypothetically, the set up we employed against Wolves on the opening day of last season would have likely resulted in the same gameplay if we had just swapped Casemiro with Rodri. Any plan to leave two AMs high and two CBs low will cause inevitable overload on the DM.

 

[Escobar]

I like him but every time we spend above £60m on a player, it never work out for us.

Offer 59m only then

 

[Adnan]

I don’t disagree, my point was, even by your own explanation - the large space covering is far more of a responsibility of the centre halves than of the DM. The DM should not have to be covering large spaces at all, the problem was, ours has been asked to, and the criticism has seemingly been that Casemiro is finished because he can’t play in midfield alone.

Ten Hag’s tactics have been poor because he hasn’t played a particularly high line, and has also played an extremely high midfield. Two or three passes, and opponents are running at our defence in acres of space. That isn’t a Casemiro problem, it’s a Ten Hag one. To bring it back to the point, it will not be a problem for Joao Neves either, unless he is simply asked to defend an entire third of the pitch on his own.

City, Arsenal and Liverpool do not play like this at all. They push midfielders high, but they are discerning enough to move a defender in-field alongside their DM to ensure no isolation. Rodri doesn’t control the transitions against City, Kyle Walker does, and it’s pretty much his sole purpose in the team and they are difficult to score against on the counter because of Walker, not Rodri. Rodri is a good player and can win duels and can do the work expected of a DM, but he’s not the anti-transition monster that was Kanté, and does not close large spaces in the same way. He is structurally protected by a set up with common sense that doesn’t leave him alone. He has John Stones in DM next to him.

Hypothetically, the set up we employed against Wolves on the opening day of last season would have likely resulted in the same gameplay if we had just swapped Casemiro with Rodri. Any plan to leave two AMs high and two CBs low will cause inevitable overload on the DM.

The DM absolutely controls the central space and if he's not their in his position he will be leave a big space for the opponent to exploit. So positional discipline for a holding midfielder is very important and on top of that, he will support the CBs to contain those large spaces which have come about due to how high the team is playing. Joao Neves isn't that player and plays a role at Benfica, where he plays a roaming role which I believe we have Kobbie Mainoo for. I don't believe a double pivot of Mainoo and Neves works.

I don't think Casemiro is finished, he was just really poor in a lot of games. And it didn't have anything to do with him not being able to cover ground quickly, which he really doesn't have the capability of doing anyway due to his lack of pace and athleticism. But Casemiro was poor due to failing to do the absolute basics on the ball. He was dreadful and it seemed he'd rather be somewhere else. I don't think we would've won the FA Cup if he had started in the final, and he should've been dropped a lot sooner.

The tactics are absolutely going to look poor if they aren't executed on the pitch. And why they weren't executed on the pitch are for very basic reasons which are easily rectified. Once your CBs backup the press and your fullback(s) also support the high press, then you've already made a big improvement. So like I said previously, the tactics which ten Hag turned to after injuries to key players was a style of play which is very common among high pressing teams around Europe, which sees the team transition the ball quickly from the back and into the forwards, whilst having your two CBs on the half way line stepping into the space vacated by the midfield. That is easy to sort out and isn't even something I'm worried about.

I'm not sure you've been reading my post carefully or maybe my explanation wasn't good enough. I never said Arsenal or City played like us in the season just gone by. City and Arsenal play a positional game, especially City more so than Arsenal. But to say that only the CBs control the defensive transitions is wrong because it's a collective responsibility which falls on at least 3 players and your CBs can only effectively control the wide channel transition if the central midfielder playing the deepest first locks off the middle. And City only push John Stones into midfield in possession but upon losing the ball, Stones drifts back into the first line.

The way we played against Wolves wasn't a DM problem. And I'm not sure why you seem to think I'm saying that a DM alone is going to contain defensive transitions when I've made countless posts on here saying otherwise. I've mentioned how having a strong rest defense enables the team to control or contain transitions. And that rest defense includes several players and not just one deeper lying DM who can only do so much.

 

[Raven]

I don’t disagree, my point was, even by your own explanation - the large space covering is far more of a responsibility of the centre halves than of the DM. The DM should not have to be covering large spaces at all, the problem was, ours has been asked to, and the criticism has seemingly been that Casemiro is finished because he can’t play in midfield alone.

Ten Hag’s tactics have been poor because he hasn’t played a particularly high line, and has also played an extremely high midfield. Two or three passes, and opponents are running at our defence in acres of space. That isn’t a Casemiro problem, it’s a Ten Hag one. To bring it back to the point, it will not be a problem for Joao Neves either, unless he is simply asked to defend an entire third of the pitch on his own.

City, Arsenal and Liverpool do not play like this at all. They push midfielders high, but they are discerning enough to move a defender in-field alongside their DM to ensure no isolation. Rodri doesn’t control the transitions against City, Kyle Walker does, and it’s pretty much his sole purpose in the team and they are difficult to score against on the counter because of Walker, not Rodri. Rodri is a good player and can win duels and can do the work expected of a DM, but he’s not the anti-transition monster that was Kanté, and does not close large spaces in the same way. He is structurally protected by a set up with common sense that doesn’t leave him alone. He has John Stones in DM next to him.

Hypothetically, the set up we employed against Wolves on the opening day of last season would have likely resulted in the same gameplay if we had just swapped Casemiro with Rodri. Any plan to leave two AMs high and two CBs low will cause inevitable overload on the DM.

This is bang on. We played a 1 man midfield for the majority of the season and as such had our midfield embarrassed on almost every occasion. Like you say, this is ETH's fault and if he persists with it next season it won't matter who plays, they'll be embarrassed as well.

 

[andersj]

Wharton looks class and definitely a player we should be interested in.

I agree. But, if you are in Palace shoes you will be looking at Rice and thinking that you could have a great player for two-three years and then sell him for £100 mill.

 

[Becks00]

Rodri is definitely very different to Kante and is utilised very differently in possession. But he plays in a team that dominates the ball but he's strong in the duel and covers space fine. He doesn't have issues covering space and does his job fine. The issue City had was that their wide channel defending in a higher line became a weakness hence players were replaced in the first line.

The idea isn't to leave large space between the midfield and defensive lines, but rather leave the large space behind the CBs in a higher line where you're compact as a team which will allow the team to compress the pitch. And when you play like that, you're playing with a higher element of risk because the opponent's transitions are going to hit hard. And those transitions can come about when you lose the ball or the opponent plays out of a press and 5 or 6 of your players are out of the game in that passage of play and the plsyers at the back will then have to contain that situation. And the teams who can contain the transition in 1v1 situations in the channels and centrally, will be successful in the league like Arsenal, Liverpool and City. When the opponent's transitions keep failing then you as a team will pin them in their own half even with midfielders like Wijnaldum and Henderson who did the basics very well.

I can't speak on what the commentary teams were saying and they very rarely provide solutions to why things are happening the way they're. But for me I've spoken about it before, and what ten Hag was trying to do was to get the ball forward quickly to the attackers to minimise mistakes in the build up phase with your best players out injured as far as ball progression is concerned. And top of that he was bringing Kobbie Mainoo through who also missed the first few months of the season.

So imo ten Hag had to change strategy with injuries to three of his most technical players on the ball in Martinez, Shaw and Mainoo. So the tactic itself of bypassing the midfield and getting the ball forward with the high press being a defensive mechanism became the go to strategy. But why it failed was on two things, the CBs just weren't comfortable at stepping up from the back to close off the space behind the midfielders and the high press strategy upon losing the ball wasn't good enough with one player not even bothering to apply the press and close off the space. That then causes the additional problem where the fullback(s) don't join in with the high press because the CBs aren't comfortable stepping up behind the midfielders. So buying Onana and loaning Amrabat also looks bad now with injuries to Martinez and Shaw, because ten Hag quite clearly was developing the team to dominate the game on the ball.

For too long we've been playing a very Conservative game since Fergie retired. And we actually really needed our best players on the ball available in the season. And no matter what anyone says to me, we couldn't replace the technical quality of both Martinez and Shaw. And if your first line is vulnerable on the ball, then there will be no stability as far as playing from the back is concerned and it's probably better to then play a more direct game rather than struggle to progress play in the build up with players who aren't the best on the ball as far as circum-navigating the opponent's high press.

I want Man Utd to develop the team to dominate the ball and dominate the transitions out of possession. But you need the right players to fit the jigsaw as far toppling the top teams who have developed well balanced teams. And eventhough Adam Wharton may not be ready to start week in week out for us, I would take a chance on him.

You didn't address his Jorginho(Arsenal) and McAllister(Liverpool) point.

 

[Adnan]

I agree. But, if you are in Palace shoes you will be looking at Rice and thinking that you could have a great player for two-three years and then sell him for £100 mill.

I think that's a possibility and something Palace should do. But if I'm to look at it from our (United) perspective, then we can also learn from missing out on Declan Rice and even Caicedo when he was still playing in Ecuador by going in early.

And young Wharton is from the greater Manchester area and may find the move to United too good to turn down with the added bonus of bring closer to his family.

 

[andersj]

I think that's a possibility and something Palace should do. But if I'm to look at it from our (United) perspective, then we can also learn from missing out on Declan Rice and even Caicedo when he was still playing in Ecuador by going in early.

And young Wharton is from the greater Manchester area and may find the move to United too good to turn down with the added bonus of bring closer to his family.

I agree. I think there is a good argument that we should really test their limit. But I would be really, really reluctant to sell if I where in their shoes.

That being said, there is also a risk here of him failing to live up to his potential for different reasons. And an information assymetry that is to their advantage.

 

[Bluelion7]

I think that's a possibility and something Palace should do. But if I'm to look at it from our (United) perspective, then we can also learn from missing out on Declan Rice and even Caicedo when he was still playing in Ecuador by going in early.

And young Wharton is from the greater Manchester area and may find the move to United too good to turn down with the added bonus of bring closer to his family.

If you guys don’t move for Wharton now City is going to move in on him are they not? I thought I read they were already scouting him heavily and building rapport for move the Summer after this one. That could be wrong.

 

[Adnan]

You didn't address his Jorginho(Arsenal) and McAllister(Liverpool) point.

Arsenal have Declan Rice who is a strong dueller and even before at Chelsea Kante was the one who helped contain the game out of possession along with other players at the back. It's about the composition of the midfield.

And I'm not sure I get the MacAllister point that is being made, Liverpool haven't done as well as they would've hoped and they were clearly looking for a deeper lying midfielder who they wanted to sign which maybe could've seen them push Arsenal and City a little closer in the league. But I think MacAllister is a good player but I think their midfield composition is incomplete as far as providing the like of MacAllister a strong platform to perform. I think Caicedo was that player who could've made the difference In that regard.

 

[Becks00]

The DM absolutely controls the central space and if he's not their in his position he will be leave a big space for the opponent to exploit. So positional discipline for a holding midfielder is very important and on top of that, he will support the CBs to contain those large spaces which have come about due to how high the team is playing. Joao Neves isn't that player and plays a role at Benfica, where he plays a roaming role which I believe we have Kobbie Mainoo for. I don't believe a double pivot of Mainoo and Neves works.

I don't think Casemiro is finished, he was just really poor in a lot of games. And it didn't have anything to do with him not being able to cover ground quickly, which he really doesn't have the capability of doing anyway due to his lack of pace and athleticism. But Casemiro was poor due to failing to do the absolute basics on the ball. He was dreadful and it seemed he'd rather be somewhere else. I don't think we would've won the FA Cup if he had started in the final, and he should've been dropped a lot sooner.

The tactics are absolutely going to look poor if they aren't executed on the pitch. And why they weren't executed on the pitch are for very basic reasons which are easily rectified. Once your CBs backup the press and your fullback(s) also support the high press, then you've already made a big improvement. So like I said previously, the tactics which ten Hag turned to after injuries to key players was a style of play which is very common among high pressing teams around Europe, which sees the team transition the ball quickly from the back and into the forwards, whilst having your two CBs on the half way line stepping into the space vacated by the midfield. That is easy to sort out and isn't even something I'm worried about.

I'm not sure you've been reading my post carefully or maybe my explanation wasn't good enough. I never said Arsenal or City played like us in the season just gone by. City and Arsenal play a positional game, especially City more so than Arsenal. But to say that only the CBs control the defensive transitions is wrong because it's a collective responsibility which falls on at least 3 players and your CBs can only effectively control the wide channel transition if the central midfielder playing the deepest first locks off the middle. And City only push John Stones into midfield in possession but upon losing the ball, Stones drifts back into the first line.

The way we played against Wolves wasn't a DM problem. And I'm not sure why you seem to think I'm saying that a DM alone is going to contain defensive transitions when I've made countless posts on here saying otherwise. I've mentioned how having a strong rest defense enables the team to control or contain transitions. And that rest defense includes several players and not just one deeper lying DM who can only do so much.

What happens should kobbie get injured for any period of time during the season. Signing Neves offers us far greater flexibility, if Arambat is retained, he can just as easily be that DM which then allows us to defer the Wharton signing to another window.

For me getting Neves is a higher priority than the DM, we can get a budget one for now.

 

[Adnan]

I agree. I think there is a good argument that we should really test their limit. But I would be really, really reluctant to sell if I where in their shoes.

That being said, there is also a risk here of him failing to live up to his potential for different reasons. And an information assymetry that is to their advantage.

Agreed mate. It's a risk, but a risk I'd take if the opportunity presented itself.

 

[saik]

I'm not sure you've been reading my post carefully

I have no beef in this but the above is exactly what I thought when I first read the other poster's response to your post.

I'm pretty sure the quoted part below from you explains why there have been huge defensive gaps and I've something similar in my earlier posts. Evans/Maguire/Lindelof none of them have anywhere near the physical capability to deal with situations if they are caught when stepping up near the halfway line. And as you alluded to in your post with Rashford(even though you have not mentioned his name, I'm sure its him) not even bothering to apply the press, the pressing structure breaks and we have more of the transitions from the opponents. There is no real intent to press from him, he literally just jogs towards the opponents. Like you said, I'm convinced it's something that can fixed easily by getting physically capable defenders which means we can push the defensive line higher and we would see less of the gaps between the front 6 and our defence. Rashford is a different problem altogether.

So imo ten Hag had to change strategy with injuries to three of his most technical players on the ball in Martinez, Shaw and Mainoo. So the tactic itself of bypassing the midfield and getting the ball forward with the high press being a defensive mechanism became the go to strategy. But why it failed was on two things, the CBs just weren't comfortable at stepping up from the back to close off the space behind the midfielders and the high press strategy upon losing the ball wasn't good enough with one player not even bothering to apply the press and close off the space. That then causes the additional problem where the fullback(s) don't join in with the high press because the CBs aren't comfortable stepping up behind the midfielders. So buying Onana and loaning Amrabat also looks bad now with injuries to Martinez and Shaw, because ten Hag quite clearly was developing the team to dominate the game on the ball.

I'm not as vehemently ETH out as others and I did see us having some good performances this year and so wanted to see how he performs without being marred by off the field issues and injuries. As for the huge defensive gaps I think it was by design as he didn't trust his defenders(after the injuries to a whole lot of them) to have the recovery pace to deal with balls in behind and so took a chance with allowing opposition pot shots from outside the box vs one on ones with the keeper. And once we had players who have the pace he could push his defensive line higher up and you'd see less of those gaps.

Now, of course we could say he could have been more pragmatic and changed his system but he probably wanted to train the players in this system rather than change it all around once again. I don't think he was helped by Casemiro lunging in at every opportunity or Garnacho/Rashford giving the ball away during transition either.

From what I have seen of the u-18s they play the same way. We are very aggressive, press high up to win possession back. The difference, as the other poster pointed out, is the continuity of the players, everyone knows what their role is and more importantly can win their individual duels.

My opinion is, the senior team suffers from not having the defence high up the pitch (so you see these huge gaps) as none of them have the recovery pace to deal with high balls if they are beaten. So I think ETH is taking the chance by allowing opposition to have pots shots from outside the box rather than allowing them to have one on ones with the GK.

This also depends on the front six pressing traps as that requires all of them to be on the same page. Rashford and McT are terrible at this as they have no tactical nous of where to be when we don't have the ball. Rashford especially is terrible at pressing as he doesn't apply any pressure and basically just jogs towards the opposition player. Mount can be a good player in the system as he appears to be a very smart player but it's a shame he has been injured so often.

 

[Adnan]

What happens should kobbie get injured for any period of time during the season. Signing Neves offers us far greater flexibility, if Arambat is retained, he can just as easily be that DM which then allows us to defer the Wharton signing to another window.

For me getting Neves is a higher priority than the DM, we can get a budget one for now.

I agree with you and you've actually provided a good argument here. I don’t think keeping Amrabat around is a great idea but the way you put it, if we did go along with Amrabat and possibly Toby Collyer to play the holding role, then I can see the point of signing Neves for a huge fee, eventhough I'd still be concerned about team balance and the quality of players in the holding midfield position.

 

[saik]

Arsenal have Declan Rice who is a strong dueller and even before at Chelsea Kante was the one who helped contain the game out of possession along with other players at the back. It's about the composition of the midfield.

And I'm not sure I get the MacAllister point that is being made, Liverpool haven't done as well as they would've hoped and they were clearly looking for a deeper lying midfielder who they wanted to sign which maybe could've seen them push Arsenal and City a little closer in the league. But I think MacAllister is a good player but I think their midfield composition is incomplete as far as providing the like of MacAllister a strong platform to perform. I think Caicedo was that player who could've made the difference In that regard.

Also agree on this. They've clearly wanted Caicedo in their midfield, even willing to break their transfer record if I'm not wrong. He chose to go to Chelsea instead and Liverpool ended up settling with cheap backups in Gravenberch and Endo. I think they will definitely go for another midfielder this season.

 

[NZT-One]

I also don’t buy into this myth that you don’t buy x player because you already have y. That’s how you end up with no depth or competition or flexibility. Players phoning it in because there’s nobody else pushing them. A good manager and organisation can keep everyone happy and fresh over the course of a season where you have European football too. Sign. Him. Up!

It isn't as much saying we shouldn't bring in good players when we already have good players - it is more saying lets make sure all seats are sold before we talk about internal competition. I think the overwhelming majority here thinks that Neves is a great player but for some people he shouldn't be a player we are spending a big chunk of the budget on when other positions are in bigger need than "bring in competition".

I agree. We probably cant or won’t go for 5 marquee players even if it lowers the risk of failure somewhat but a dream summer for me is something like

Neves 75
Yoro 60
Sesko 60
Ait Nouri 45
Brantwaithe 60
Some aggressive specialist DM 50

Crazy FM money and type window but not actually crazy if we can recoup about 100 million in sales and slash the wage bill. What’s really crazy is spending 150 million every year and always having an incomplete squad that comes up short. That’s looking at the team being fixed barring adding one or two each summer during the next cycle. That’s a league challenging team once they hit their peak.

350 million. This is fan fiction.

That was a completely different situation to the one we’re in.
Madrid already had a complete midfield that was winning champions league titles, but it was also ageing. The players they brought in were all supremely gifted both techinally and athletically and had a stable environment that could support them as they learned and developed.

We know very little of what environment Neves will be entering at United, what role he’ll play or how suited he’ll be to play it. What’s likely however is that he’ll be subject to even more pressure and scrutiny here than those players were. And he won’t have the likes of Kroos, Modric or even Casemiro to hold his hand while he finds his feet, or even a tried and tested functioning system to slot into for that matter.

Good point.

I don’t get this idea that we need a DM to ‘cover large spaces’. That’s exactly what we don’t want our DM doing anyway. Centre halves that can cover large spaces - yes, absolutely. However, large spaces in midfield was exactly our problem this season and our shape should be far more compact than that anyway.

In short, we do not want ‘large spaces’ in the centre of our midfield!

But the pitch has a fixed size, doesn't it. So when you compress space somewhere on the pitch, there will be space opening up at a different spot. Asking your CBs to take care of that makes sense, but the teams you were talking about, Arsenal, City and Pool also have very good CBs on top of having defensive specialist.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point - it isn't as much about labels like DM or 6 or holding midfielder or pivot. It is about a role or a responsibility that one (or more) players have to take over. Most teams work with a midfielder who is a good and solid defender who in best case scenario has even more useful traits - and in the light our recent failures I'd personally favor a more conservative approach and not try to reinvent the wheel. Lets be honest, in a years time, there is a good chance, that there will be another midfield talent, that gets spoken about similar to Neves so we shouldn't box ourselves into so some "now or never" fake urgency. Not that you specifically would have promoted that, but it is what shines through the lines of a few posts in here.

 

[luke511]

The DM absolutely controls the central space and if he's not their in his position he will be leave a big space for the opponent to exploit. So positional discipline for a holding midfielder is very important and on top of that, he will support the CBs to contain those large spaces which have come about due to how high the team is playing. Joao Neves isn't that player and plays a role at Benfica, where he plays a roaming role which I believe we have Kobbie Mainoo for. I don't believe a double pivot of Mainoo and Neves works.

Neves and Mainoo have positional discipline. They roam in turns whilst the other holds in behind, that’s what a double pivot is all about. Both excellent dribblers and passers, comfortable positionally playing as a 6, and capable of closing down and winning back possession, it’s a pretty ideal combination for it.

 

[Powderfinger]

Arsenal have Declan Rice who is a strong dueller and even before at Chelsea Kante was the one who helped contain the game out of possession along with other players at the back. It's about the composition of the midfield.

And I'm not sure I get the MacAllister point that is being made, Liverpool haven't done as well as they would've hoped and they were clearly looking for a deeper lying midfielder who they wanted to sign which maybe could've seen them push Arsenal and City a little closer in the league. But I think MacAllister is a good player but I think their midfield composition is incomplete as far as providing the like of MacAllister a strong platform to perform. I think Caicedo was that player who could've made the difference In that regard.

Jorginho also only started 10 league matches for Arsenal. Even surrounded by elite athletes and big space players like Rice, Saliba, and Gabriel he was a defensive liability and there were matches where other sides targeted and ran through him.

Agreed on Liverpool. They clearly wanted a DM capable of covering big spaces, failed to land Caicedo, and decided to bide their time with Endo on the cheap and look again this summer. Fabinho (in his prime) made a huge difference to that side and their inability to replace him has been one of their biggest issues.

 

[Kingslayer18]

I think you've seen how you've gone about developing your Arsenal team and with Declan Rice already at the club it makes more sense for you to potentially sign Neves. It absolutely makes more sense for us to sign Wharton who imo should be our #1 target from Palace.

Instead of Wharton, who will be extremely difficult to get from Palace considering he's only been there for 6 months, we should rather look at getting Archie Gray. He's someone who has the required technical skills, pace & athleticism to play the 6 role and be a good fit next to Mainoo. We could then add another more DM like Onana or Fofana. None of this would prevent the emergence of the wave of technical 8s that are coming through the youth ranks.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I think you've seen how you've gone about developing your Arsenal team and with Declan Rice already at the club it makes more sense for you to potentially sign Neves. It absolutely makes more sense for us to sign Wharton who imo should be our #1 target from Palace.

Neves for 100m to Arsenal? Not going to happen. Only Utd, may be Chelsea can afford him at this price. On the other hand Wharton probably should stay with Palace for one or two more season to develop his game, and wait for City offer.

 

[Rozay]

The DM absolutely controls the central space and if he's not their in his position he will be leave a big space for the opponent to exploit. So positional discipline for a holding midfielder is very important and on top of that, he will support the CBs to contain those large spaces which have come about due to how high the team is playing. Joao Neves isn't that player and plays a role at Benfica, where he plays a roaming role which I believe we have Kobbie Mainoo for. I don't believe a double pivot of Mainoo and Neves works.

I don't think Casemiro is finished, he was just really poor in a lot of games. And it didn't have anything to do with him not being able to cover ground quickly, which he really doesn't have the capability of doing anyway due to his lack of pace and athleticism. But Casemiro was poor due to failing to do the absolute basics on the ball. He was dreadful and it seemed he'd rather be somewhere else. I don't think we would've won the FA Cup if he had started in the final, and he should've been dropped a lot sooner.

The tactics are absolutely going to look poor if they aren't executed on the pitch. And why they weren't executed on the pitch are for very basic reasons which are easily rectified. Once your CBs backup the press and your fullback(s) also support the high press, then you've already made a big improvement. So like I said previously, the tactics which ten Hag turned to after injuries to key players was a style of play which is very common among high pressing teams around Europe, which sees the team transition the ball quickly from the back and into the forwards, whilst having your two CBs on the half way line stepping into the space vacated by the midfield. That is easy to sort out and isn't even something I'm worried about.

I'm not sure you've been reading my post carefully or maybe my explanation wasn't good enough. I never said Arsenal or City played like us in the season just gone by. City and Arsenal play a positional game, especially City more so than Arsenal. But to say that only the CBs control the defensive transitions is wrong because it's a collective responsibility which falls on at least 3 players and your CBs can only effectively control the wide channel transition if the central midfielder playing the deepest first locks off the middle. And City only push John Stones into midfield in possession but upon losing the ball, Stones drifts back into the first line.

The way we played against Wolves wasn't a DM problem. And I'm not sure why you seem to think I'm saying that a DM alone is going to contain defensive transitions when I've made countless posts on here saying otherwise. I've mentioned how having a strong rest defense enables the team to control or contain transitions. And that rest defense includes several players and not just one deeper lying DM who can only do so much.

Perhaps we have been misunderstanding each other. I am referencing the DM controlling the space because this is a thread about a prospective midfielder, and unless I am mistaken, you have been slightly opposed to it and have cited reasons as what you believe the profile and responsibilities of the midfielder we sign needs to be. Again, unless I am mistaken, you have mentioned the ability to control large spaces in the transition, seemingly by way of implication that Neves is not suited for this.

My counter was that this function is actually the collective one that you have mentioned above, and more of a structural one. And because of this, there’s no reason Neves can’t play his part if the setup is correct.

Rodri, as an example, needs to control less transitional space than Kyle Walker does. I agree with much of what you said to be honest, and I think we are in agreement about a lot, however, from a contextual point of view, I don’t see how Neves becomes such an incompatible midfielder with everything you have described. If indeed, the defence pushes up high to support the press and compact the shape, what exactly is the issue with Joao Neves?

 

[Adnan]

I have no beef in this but the above is exactly what I thought when I first read the other poster's response to your post.

I'm pretty sure the quoted part below from you explains why there have been huge defensive gaps and I've something similar in my earlier posts. Evans/Maguire/Lindelof none of them have anywhere near the physical capability to deal with situations if they are caught when stepping up near the halfway line. And as you alluded to in your post with Rashford(even though you have not mentioned his name, I'm sure its him) not even bothering to apply the press, the pressing structure breaks and we have more of the transitions from the opponents. There is no real intent to press from him, he literally just jogs towards the opponents. Like you said, I'm convinced it's something that can fixed easily by getting physically capable defenders which means we can push the defensive line higher and we would see less of the gaps between the front 6 and our defence. Rashford is a different problem altogether.

The issue the current team is having is very easy to rectify imo. Those gaps between the defensive and midfield lines is something that requires the CBs to step forward play on the front foot in a higher line. Ten Hag very obviously knows this and was seen several times telling the backline to step up in the season just gone. But I don't believe some of our CBs are capable of playing in such a way. He could've easily reverted to type earlier and played more Conservatively in a lower block, but in his own words it was about trying to implement a more modern playstyle with the aim of trying to get results but also progress the team as far as playing a more proactive brand of football. Unfortunately the results didn't arrive but he adapted his original strategy which was to play out from the back and through the midfield. I think his idea if executed properly with the correct profile of players will see a significant improvement on both results and playstyle.

 

[Teja]

Rumors of Greenwood being linked to Benfica. Make of that what you will.,

https://www.record.pt/futebol/futeb...ood-rui-pedro-braz-ja-se-reuniu-com-o-jogador

 

[Adnan]

Perhaps we have been misunderstanding each other. I am referencing the DM controlling the space because this is a thread about a prospective midfielder, and unless I am mistaken, you have been slightly opposed to it and have cited reasons as what you believe the profile and responsibilities of the midfielder we sign needs to be. Again, unless I am mistaken, you have mentioned the ability to control large spaces in the transition, seemingly by way of implication that Neves is not suited for this.

My counter was that this function is actually the collective one that you have mentioned above, and more of a structural one. And because of this, there’s no reason Neves can’t play his part if the setup is correct.

Rodri, as an example, needs to control less transitional space than Kyle Walker does. I agree with much of what you said to be honest, and I think we are in agreement about a lot, however, from a contextual point of view, I don’t see how Neves becomes such an incompatible midfielder with everything you have described. If indeed, the defence pushes up high to support the press and compact the shape, what exactly is the issue with Joao Neves?

I don't think either Mainoo or Neves are suited to playing the holding role out of possession and both are best utilised as the roaming playmakers. The way Schmidt is using Neves at Benfica is the correct way and it gives him the freedom to play as the roaming playmaker who effects the game in all phases of play. Why would you then sign him and limit his game along with Mainoo's by making them overly defensive in a more disciplined way. You don't buy a player who is being utilised in a certain way at a club and then ask him to perform a role he's not performing. Mourinho did that to Pogba, and with Mainoo already at the club you either sign a holding midfielder alongside Neves or you prioritise signing the holding midfielder to have better team balance. I can understand why many want Neves but I think we as a team would be better served if we prioritised team balance.

It is a collective function and I completely agree that Neves could play his role in the setup. But the problem isn't Neves's role in such a setup but rather we're missing a player to occupy a deeper midfield role with the craft, guile, positional discipline and tactical awareness so the rest of the team can then play off him, which includes interior midfielders like Mainoo and Neves.

The issue as I've mentioned above is quite clearly Neves not being the holding midfielder and he isn't one at his current club with both Joao Mario and Florentino Luis playing a role which allows Neves to potentially excel in his role as the roaming playmaker where he gets involved deeper but is then allowed to get forward and receive the ball in between the lines in advanced areas. So it's not that he's a incompatible player, it's just that he's incompatible with the options we have in midfield right now and signing a proper holding midfielder will be far better for us if it's a choice between Neves and the holding midfielder.

 

[Adnan]

Jorginho also only started 10 league matches for Arsenal. Even surrounded by elite athletes and big space players like Rice, Saliba, and Gabriel he was a defensive liability and there were matches where other sides targeted and ran through him.

Agreed on Liverpool. They clearly wanted a DM capable of covering big spaces, failed to land Caicedo, and decided to bide their time with Endo on the cheap and look again this summer. Fabinho (in his prime) made a huge difference to that side and their inability to replace him has been one of their biggest issues.

I'm surprised you even signed him, he's always been a bit of a liability if caught in space on the counter. But as you point out, you've developed a very well rounded team that can deal with all eventualities where you can dominate the ball by not relying on any one one player and you also have the capability to defend the transition at a very high level with the pace and athleticism you have in the team where collectively you can easily control or contain transitions in a higher line.

I think the difference between how we've gone about developing the team and how yourself and Liverpool have gone about developing your teams over the years, is that you haven't neglected the out of possession concepts of playing in a higher line. And as we saw in Germany this season, Leverkusen themselves had a very strong rest defense with pace and power and it allowed them to topple Bayern and allowed their more creative players to flourish because the guys at the back could handle defending in large spaces.

 

[Adnan]

Instead of Wharton, who will be extremely difficult to get from Palace considering he's only been there for 6 months, we should rather look at getting Archie Gray. He's someone who has the required technical skills, pace & athleticism to play the 6 role and be a good fit next to Mainoo. We could then add another more DM like Onana or Fofana. None of this would prevent the emergence of the wave of technical 8s that are coming through the youth ranks.

I haven't seen Archie Gray play but I've heard he's a very good young player that unfortunately plays for Leeds.

 

[golden_blunder]

I haven't seen Archie Gray play but I've heard he's a very good young player that unfortunately plays for Leeds.

Related to former players Frank and Eddie Gray too

 

[Woziak]

I think you've seen how you've gone about developing your Arsenal team and with Declan Rice already at the club it makes more sense for you to potentially sign Neves. It absolutely makes more sense for us to sign Wharton who imo should be our #1 target from Palace.

Totally agree on Wharton, really is a Nemanja Matic type player but ceiling might be higher as he’s definitely quicker round the pitch.

 

[greater wall]

For those saying we need to do this before the Euros, absolutely no chance. Not only this, but no big deals will be done for big players competing for the biggest nations. The official line will always be that ‘I am fully focused on the national team now and do not want any distractions’.

You don't want to sign a player just before he picks up a long-term injury playing for their NT.

Rumors of Greenwood being linked to Benfica. Make of that what you will.,

https://www.record.pt/futebol/futeb...ood-rui-pedro-braz-ja-se-reuniu-com-o-jogador

Might be the first time for a swap deal involving one of their promising players.

 

[izak]

Rodri is definitely very different to Kante and is utilised very differently in possession. But he plays in a team that dominates the ball but he's strong in the duel and covers space fine. He doesn't have issues covering space and does his job fine. The issue City had was that their wide channel defending in a higher line became a weakness hence players were replaced in the first line.

The idea isn't to leave large space between the midfield and defensive lines, but rather leave the large space behind the CBs in a higher line where you're compact as a team which will allow the team to compress the pitch. And when you play like that, you're playing with a higher element of risk because the opponent's transitions are going to hit hard. And those transitions can come about when you lose the ball or the opponent plays out of a press and 5 or 6 of your players are out of the game in that passage of play and the plsyers at the back will then have to contain that situation. And the teams who can contain the transition in 1v1 situations in the channels and centrally, will be successful in the league like Arsenal, Liverpool and City. When the opponent's transitions keep failing then you as a team will pin them in their own half even with midfielders like Wijnaldum and Henderson who did the basics very well.

I can't speak on what the commentary teams were saying and they very rarely provide solutions to why things are happening the way they're. But for me I've spoken about it before, and what ten Hag was trying to do was to get the ball forward quickly to the attackers to minimise mistakes in the build up phase with your best players out injured as far as ball progression is concerned. And top of that he was bringing Kobbie Mainoo through who also missed the first few months of the season.

So imo ten Hag had to change strategy with injuries to three of his most technical players on the ball in Martinez, Shaw and Mainoo. So the tactic itself of bypassing the midfield and getting the ball forward with the high press being a defensive mechanism became the go to strategy. But why it failed was on two things, the CBs just weren't comfortable at stepping up from the back to close off the space behind the midfielders and the high press strategy upon losing the ball wasn't good enough with one player not even bothering to apply the press and close off the space. That then causes the additional problem where the fullback(s) don't join in with the high press because the CBs aren't comfortable stepping up behind the midfielders. So buying Onana and loaning Amrabat also looks bad now with injuries to Martinez and Shaw, because ten Hag quite clearly was developing the team to dominate the game on the ball.

For too long we've been playing a very Conservative game since Fergie retired. And we actually really needed our best players on the ball available in the season. And no matter what anyone says to me, we couldn't replace the technical quality of both Martinez and Shaw. And if your first line is vulnerable on the ball, then there will be no stability as far as playing from the back is concerned and it's probably better to then play a more direct game rather than struggle to progress play in the build up with players who aren't the best on the ball as far as circum-navigating the opponent's high press.

I want Man Utd to develop the team to dominate the ball and dominate the transitions out of possession. But you need the right players to fit the jigsaw as far toppling the top teams who have developed well balanced teams. And eventhough Adam Wharton may not be ready to start week in week out for us, I would take a chance on him.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying and ill like to add that I strongly doubt ETH would instruct the team to deliberately leave large spaces in between the midfield and defense.
The problem is the players required to execute his plans accurately were either injured or not good enough.

If we isolate the FA Cup final the difference was Martinez and Varane both are comfortable on the ball and can pin it into the middle, they are also quick to read and react to danger, most importantly their understanding of how to play the ETH way is something they understand.

The Defense controls a lot of what happens on the pitch, for that reason it's say Evans, Lindeløf and Maguire left us home and dry when we needed them to step up, they are not pacy enough to play a highline and it cost us our season.

 

[golden_blunder]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying and ill like to add that I strongly doubt ETH would instruct the team to deliberately leave large spaces in between the midfield and defense.
The problem is the players required to execute his plans accurately were either injured or not good enough.

If we isolate the FA Cup final the difference was Martinez and Varane both are comfortable on the ball and can pin it into the middle, they are also quick to read and react to danger, most importantly their understanding of how to play the ETH way is something they understand.

The Defense controls a lot of what happens on the pitch, for that reason it's say Evans, Lindeløf and Maguire left us home and dry when we needed them to step up, they are not pacy enough to play a highline and it cost us our season.

That is unfair. Evans did more than expected and Maguire had a redeeming season. I think the massive hole in the midfield compounded by the options we have for midfield should have resulted in ETH tweaking his idea to get through. But he didn’t and that’s on him.

 

[izak]

That is unfair. Evans did more than expected and Maguire had a redeeming season. I think the massive hole in the midfield compounded by the options we have for midfield should have resulted in ETH tweaking his idea to get through. But he didn’t and that’s on him.

Tweak us to what exactly and don't tell me low block Team,

Fact is Lindeløf, Evans and Maguire aren't good enough, Paint it what you like they aren't good enough to play in a press or counter press team.

I strongly believe if we had Martinez and Varane for most of the season we won't have finished as low as eight we'll mostly likely had finished in the top 4.

 

[NZT-One]

That is unfair. Evans did more than expected and Maguire had a redeeming season. I think the massive hole in the midfield compounded by the options we have for midfield should have resulted in ETH tweaking his idea to get through. But he didn’t and that’s on him.

I think, that is a misunderstanding. The massive hole is a combination of players not having the ideal skillset to fullfill a certain role and lack of organisation. Our press often times was pretty eager but our back line was reluctant to step up because Maguire and Lindelof are notorious for being cautious and risk averse in terms of getting caught. Our options in the middle and in defense weren't great but with that flaw, having better players wouldn't have changed much, probably at least. If parts of a team push up and the other does not, it creates space - independent of the personel.

I agree that ETH probably at some point should have tweaked it. I guess he was reluctant because he often wasn't sure how long a player would be out. Going back to a simple gameplan has its upsides and it may have had a positive effect on some of our stats. But at the same time the process he is talking about so often would have been delayed once again. I can see why people criticise him for that, I just think that in itself there is a certain logic behind it.

 

[Wrecking ralf]

I don't think either Mainoo or Neves are suited to playing the holding role out of possession and both are best utilised as the roaming playmakers. The way Schmidt is using Neves at Benfica is the correct way and it gives him the freedom to play as the roaming playmaker who effects the game in all phases of play. Why would you then sign him and limit his game along with Mainoo's by making them overly defensive in a more disciplined way. You don't buy a player who is being utilised in a certain way at a club and then ask him to perform a role he's not performing. Mourinho did that to Pogba, and with Mainoo already at the club you either sign a holding midfielder alongside Neves or you prioritise signing the holding midfielder to have better team balance. I can understand why many want Neves but I think we as a team would be better served if we prioritised team balance.

It is a collective function and I completely agree that Neves could play his role in the setup. But the problem isn't Neves's role in such a setup but rather we're missing a player to occupy a deeper midfield role with the craft, guile, positional discipline and tactical awareness so the rest of the team can then play off him, which includes interior midfielders like Mainoo and Neves.

The issue as I've mentioned above is quite clearly Neves not being the holding midfielder and he isn't one at his current club with both Joao Mario and Florentino Luis playing a role which allows Neves to potentially excel in his role as the roaming playmaker where he gets involved deeper but is then allowed to get forward and receive the ball in between the lines in advanced areas. So it's not that he's a incompatible player, it's just that he's incompatible with the options we have in midfield right now and signing a proper holding midfielder will be far better for us if it's a choice between Neves and the holding midfielder.

If you look back at how Erik’s Ajax team worked, they used a very fluid interchange of positioning. At times a CB would move up into the DM position and the fullbacks would tuck in alongside the remaining Cb (Inacio/Todibo would fit this role well I think) allowing the 2 midfielders in the pivot to be able to push up supporting the CAM whilst the wingers would either drop deep alongside them or push ahead to support the striker. So in reality the Neves/Mainoo partnership would fit this perfectly as Martinez would move forward as he had down for us in matches previously to utilise his passing ability. So the formation basically changes to.

Hojlund​

Bruno​

Garnacho Neves Mainoo Amad

Martinez​

Shaw Inacio/Todibo Dalot​

What we would need is the correct CB brought in to partner him and obviously a new left back as without Shaw being constantly available, we don’t have a good enough backup right now.

I remember ETH being asked about playing his Ajax way and he said we weren’t able to, but that’s only a personnel issue. We could make 3 signings and make real strides in being able to play the way I’m sure Erik has wanted to for a while.

 

[Bestie07]

I think, that is a misunderstanding. The massive hole is a combination of players not having the ideal skillset to fullfill a certain role and lack of organisation. Our press often times was pretty eager but our back line was reluctant to step up because Maguire and Lindelof are notorious for being cautious and risk averse in terms of getting caught. Our options in the middle and in defense weren't great but with that flaw, having better players wouldn't have changed much, probably at least. If parts of a team push up and the other does not, it creates space - independent of the personel.

I agree that ETH probably at some point should have tweaked it. I guess he was reluctant because he often wasn't sure how long a player would be out. Going back to a simple gameplan has its upsides and it may have had a positive effect on some of our stats. But at the same time the process he is talking about so often would have been delayed once again. I can see why people criticise him for that, I just think that in itself there is a certain logic behind it.

Thank you for saying this.

 

[Bondi77]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying and ill like to add that I strongly doubt ETH would instruct the team to deliberately leave large spaces in between the midfield and defense.
The problem is the players required to execute his plans accurately were either injured or not good enough.

If we isolate the FA Cup final the difference was Martinez and Varane both are comfortable on the ball and can pin it into the middle, they are also quick to read and react to danger, most importantly their understanding of how to play the ETH way is something they understand.

The Defense controls a lot of what happens on the pitch, for that reason it's say Evans, Lindeløf and Maguire left us home and dry when we needed them to step up, they are not pacy enough to play a highline and it cost us our season.

Varane is quick and good aerially but he is not good with the ball at his feet.
Martinez is good with the ball at his feet and has good positional sense but he is no quicker than Evans or even Lindelof.
I hope we bring in a quick strong CB that is good with the ball at his feet and is good aerially to compliment Lisandro and big Willy improves enough to be backup in the RCB role.

 

[JE-365]

Rodri absolutely has the ability to cover a larger space from his central midfield position. Jorginho isn't someone who can cover large spaces hence he had other midfielders at Chelsea who were better equipped to deal with such situations, Kante being that player. And MacAllister has never been that player with Caicedo being the one that was the more defensive of the two and was also wanted at Liverpool for a similar role.

I believe we need some players that can cover large space to play high line but I don’t think it needs to be from midfield position, it can be from other positions. I think you can have this from full backs or centre backs as well.

If we play Mainoo and Neves in pivot and have the right footed CB version of van de Ven who is CB that can cover large space due to having incredible pace and athleticism plus I believe Dalot is someone who has the pace and athleticism to cover large space (which we had seen him making multiple recovery tackles to cover our slow centre back), I think we will be fine in term of balance. I don’t believe Rodri is the player who can cover a larger space, I often see City relying in Walker and Akanji to do it.

I’m not sure the purpose of having a midfielder who can cover large space if the team has defenders who can cover large space. I think it’s more important to have defenders who can cover a large space to play high line because they are the last men in your team after keeper. Defenders have better chance than midfield to recover the ball back when the opposition decide to expose the high line by making long ball.

IMO, for defending purposes, the midfield need to be intelligent or have good tactical awareness about which area or spot they need to move into to cover for others if two of the midfield being pushed up and needs to have aggression and high stamina to keep playing high intensity tempo. And of course the most important is to be able to keep possession unlike Casemiro. I think Neves ticks the boxes for this.

 

[Adnan]

If you look back at how Erik’s Ajax team worked, they used a very fluid interchange of positioning. At times a CB would move up into the DM position and the fullbacks would tuck in alongside the remaining Cb (Inacio/Todibo would fit this role well I think) allowing the 2 midfielders in the pivot to be able to push up supporting the CAM whilst the wingers would either drop deep alongside them or push ahead to support the striker. So in reality the Neves/Mainoo partnership would fit this perfectly as Martinez would move forward as he had down for us in matches previously to utilise his passing ability. So the formation basically changes to.

​

Hojlund​

​

Bruno​

Garnacho Neves Mainoo Amad

​

Martinez​

​

Shaw Inacio/Todibo Dalot​

What we would need is the correct CB brought in to partner him and obviously a new left back as without Shaw being constantly available, we don’t have a good enough backup right now.

I remember ETH being asked about playing his Ajax way and he said we weren’t able to, but that’s only a personnel issue. We could make 3 signings and make real strides in being able to play the way I’m sure Erik has wanted to for a while.

I wrote the below paragraph in 2023 about the same subject. After Schone and de Jong were no longer options in midfield for him, he (ten Hag) tweaked things and utilised his CBs and fullbacks to control the game in possession. And he had a midfielder in Edson Alvarez who was never very good on the ball per Ajax standards but he had the height and physicality to help the team out of possession on the ground in the air which complimented the shorter CB pairing of Martinez and Timber.

"EtH made it work because his CBs and fullbacks were better than his midfielders in the build up phase. Blind and Mazraoui were comfortable coming into central areas and with Martinez and.Timber also good on the ball along with the GK, the midfield wasn't relied on to progress the ball."

"And he carried on playing the same style of football but without relying on his midfielders in possession after the double midfield pivot of Schone and De Jong departed."