Joao Neves | signed for PSG

[dinostar77]

The guy has a lot going for him. He is spoken about as a model professional. And the stats are backing him to be a fantastic progressor of the ball while also being really good defensively. It is a small sample size though - he stood his ground statswise in CL and EL but it is only from this year. And the Portugese league isn't the greatest to draw conclusions for the PL from. He is undoubtedly a great talent and most likely will emerge at least as being a very very good player. With the potential to be way better.

But he is going to cost a bomb. Especially because this type of player (and talent is obviously) heavily sought after.

Would he be a good fit with mainoo and Fernandez? I've never seen him play. Hopefully he will get time on the pitch with Portugal at the euros so I can see what the hype is about myself.

Also if we get priced out of a move for him, would Adam Wharton be a realistic alternative to nerves?

 

[NZT-One]

Are they poor players then?

No they aren't. But they also shouldn't be used as some sort of "don't worry, he'll be a success" point.

Would he be a good fit with mainoo and Fernandez? I've never seen him play. Hopefully he will get time on the pitch with Portugal at the euros so I can see what the hype is about myself.

Also if we get priced out of a move for him, would Adam Wharton be a realistic alternative to nerves?

Whether he'd be a good fit is part of the right now ongoing debate. I'll happily invite you to read the last like 3 or 4 pages about it I personally don't think he is an ideal fit in the midfield you listed. I see his strengths in the same areas as Mainoo and while he is better than Mainoo defensively, this is based on a very short time and not the greatest competition in Portugese League. He is also just 19 and about 5'9.
But there are a few posters on here who see it differently to me and suggest that Mainoo and Neves could be a very good double pivot.

I'm sorry, I can't really tell about Wharton, I know nothing about that player other than his name being listed as a very good talent.

 

[Rozay]

Would he be a good fit with mainoo and Fernandez? I've never seen him play. Hopefully he will get time on the pitch with Portugal at the euros so I can see what the hype is about myself.

Also if we get priced out of a move for him, would Adam Wharton be a realistic alternative to nerves?

I think he can compliment Mainoo, but speaking for myself as someone who has been advocating for his signing, I can concede that he would not be my first choice player to simply come in and screen the midfield. A large part of my advocacy is due to wanting us to play with a DM, Neves and Mainoo in the medium to long term. I am aware that in doing so, I am prioritising a more solid and controlling midfield structure over the need to have one singular high volume creator from the middle 3.

With our existing team structure, Wharton would be of greater interest to me in terms of profile. However, my long time preference has been to change our midfield structure.

 

[GledTheRed]

I see what you did there

 

[NZT-One]

You're missing the point if anything

I don't. You said I would consider Neves a liability defensively. Which hasn't been said at all. Thats the point you were missing.

Neves can play the same role as Busquets, Rodri, Carrick etc whilst being defensively reliable, that's what I'm trying to say. He's fine as a partner with Mainoo in a double pivot, with Fernandes as a 10. Once we play without Fernandes, then him and Mainoo can play more advanced with a 6 in behind. We need a 6/8 and a 6 this summer anyway, we're better off going big on the player that can play as a 6 or an 8 whilst we still have Fernandes as the first name on the team sheet.

And you are basing that on what? One fecking year? Where he mostly played in the Portugese league? You are using this to extrapolate a future in the Premier League?

Busquets - 1,89m
Rodri - 1,90m
Carrick - 1,88m

Neves 1,74m

You really think he can play the exact same role? He could head the ball away when Westham is punting it high into a congested midfield? And before you start accuse me again for focussing too much on his height - I am aware that not all players have to be tall and the main point is that the team has to have somebody to make sure heading is not vulnerability. But seeing Bruno, Mainoo and Neves in terms of height and physicality leaves me a little worried. Especially in front of Martinez. It would put a lot of pressure on the other CB. The one we also have to buy. With the limited funds you are about to spend on Neves

Maybe we see the 6 role very differently - to me it feels like you are focussing solely on the progressive aspects of the 6 position, positional discipline, taking the ball from the CBs, being a safe passing option. I focus on the ballwinning aspect of the 6. I don't know too much about Neves but I've seen Mainoo enough to know that calling him a defensive rock would be a very crass misinterpretation. The fact that you consider him as being able to "play the 6" makes me worried that Neves is too similar to Mainoo. And once again - all those teams are lining up with (tall) defensive specialists in midfield. You have to at least understand why I am worried that you are trying to sell us the idea of having two teenagers in there while also going against the grain in terms of line up in a team that was quite dysfunctional this year.

 

[NZT-One]

I think he can compliment Mainoo, but speaking for myself as someone who has been advocating for his signing, I can concede that he would not be my first choice player to simply come in and screen the midfield. A large part of my advocacy is due to wanting us to play with a DM, Neves and Mainoo in the medium to long term. I am aware that in doing so, I am prioritising a more solid and controlling midfield structure over the need to have one singular high volume creator from the middle 3.

With our existing team structure, Wharton would be of greater interest to me in terms of profile. However, my long time preference has been to change our midfield structure.

For the record - that is exactly the same I'd try to go for long term. If the future starts now and we are sending Bruno to Ryad for 90 million to bring in Neves and play him next to Mainoo, you'll have me as the happiest guy on the forum for quite some time I guess

 

[Berbaclass]

Any idea on how I can pay good money to subscribe to such gold-plated pieces of information?

The discord is free

 

[DJ_21]

This best not be a FDJ situation where we chase a player all summer and then panick buy a random midfielder

 

[luke511]

I don't. You said I would consider Neves a liability defensively. Which hasn't been said at all. Thats the point you were missing.

Because a midfield needs at least some capabilites against the ball. Neves seems to be industrious and busy, that is great but he isn't going to cover space, win headers or add some steel when opponents will try to outmuscle us. That isn't a dig at Neves, I'd love him here but it feels like some of you are a little too eager to put more and more midfielders in there for "on the ball"-reasons while seemingly neglecting the "off the ball" reasons.

You must have witnessed us playing without a defensively sound player during all of the late Matic, McFred times, have you?

Shouldn't that be a lesson towards not trying to ignore defensive capabilities? We haven't had that sort of solidity since Carrick.

I really don't see how you can say that Neves and Mainoo look like defensively capable to you.

C'mon mate, that surely all translates to you thinking Neves would be a liability defensively in a partnership with Mainoo. You said he wasn't a "defensively sound player" referencing McFred for one?

You really think he can play the exact same role? He could head the ball away when Westham is punting it high into a congested midfield? And before you start accuse me again for focussing too much on his height - I am aware that not all players have to be tall and the main point is that the team has to have somebody to make sure heading is not vulnerability. But seeing Bruno, Mainoo and Neves in terms of height and physicality leaves me a little worried. Especially in front of Martinez. It would put a lot of pressure on the other CB. The one we also have to buy. With the limited funds you are about to spend on Neves

In terms of passing, positioning and intercepting, 100%. I'm confident he'll be fine with West Ham lumping it too, Neves is strong in the air. The height needs to lie more on our defence, the centre backs we bring in have to bring that presence. We could bring in two tall centre backs and potentially use Martinez as cover for Shaw with Dalot playing the more advanced role.

Maybe we see the 6 role very differently - to me it feels like you are focussing solely on the progressive aspects of the 6 position, positional discipline, taking the ball from the CBs, being a safe passing option. I focus on the ballwinning aspect of the 6. I don't know too much about Neves but I've seen Mainoo enough to know that calling him a defensive rock would be a very crass misinterpretation. The fact that you consider him as being able to "play the 6" makes me worried that Neves is too similar to Mainoo. And once again - all those teams are lining up with (tall) defensive specialists in midfield. You have to at least understand why I am worried that you are trying to sell us the idea of having two teenagers in there while also going against the grain in terms of line up in a team that was quite dysfunctional this year.

Mainoo was tasked with an almost impossible job for a lot of the season as a lone midfielder in front of the defence, so there were times where he didn't seem up to it, but there were also times where he went above and beyond defensively, and proved himself in that role. Add Neves next to him in a well planned double pivot and I'm confident he can easily pull off the defensive work. It's all hypothetical and I understand your reservations, but for me, I think the skill set balance between them is perfect behind a 10 like Bruno.

 

[Robertd0803]

Also if we get priced out of a move for him, would Adam Wharton be a realistic alternative to nerves?

Wharton wouldnt exactly be cheap either so highly likely we would be priced out of him as well.

 

[Uncle Mainoo]

Neves only works if we scrap Bruno as number 10. We can’t play Mainoo Neves and Bro. We will get dominated. The midfield has to be balanced.

 

[Acquire Me]

Not sure if I should be drawn in to this potential transfer

 

[Bastian]

This best not be a FDJ situation where we chase a player all summer and then panick buy a random midfielder

It's not comparable, I don't think. Unless Pep starts gushing all over him and City are in the clear, I can't imagine him not wanting to join. There is no rumoured interest from Bayern, Real or Barca. With FDJ he didn't want to join, so there was no due diligence there. Maybe Erik will speak on it after he's no longer United manager, certainly would be interesting to know if he was being encouraged by Frenkie or his agent. The obvious stumbling block here is the astronomical release clause, so unless the club think they haggle until the last minute like they did and failed with Maguire, it's unlikely that this will be a similar saga.

 

[DJ_21]

It's not comparable, I don't think. Unless Pep starts gushing all over him and City are in the clear, I can't imagine him not wanting to join. There is no rumoured interest from Bayern, Real or Barca. With FDJ he didn't want to join, so there was no due diligence there. Maybe Erik will speak on it after he's no longer United manager, certainly would be interesting to know if he was being encouraged by Frenkie or his agent. The obvious stumbling block here is the astronomical release clause, so unless the club think they haggle until the last minute like they did and failed with Maguire, it's unlikely that this will be a similar saga.

This signing is very unlikely this summer as he’ll cost to much and with us needing a CB, LB and ST aswell. I can’t see us spending to much on 1 player unless we make quite a bit in sales.

 

[Bastian]

This signing is very unlikely this summer as he’ll cost to much and with us needing a CB, LB and ST aswell. I can’t see us spending to much on 1 player unless we make quite a bit in sales.

Yeah, I'd say the financial feasibility is the only question mark here, really. Same with Wharton, although City do seem interested in him. That being said, I think the club if finally competent can and should make quite a bit in sales, bring down the wage bill significantly, and be creative in getting things done.

 

[NZT-One]

C'mon mate, that surely all translates to you thinking Neves would be a liability defensively in a partnership with Mainoo. You said he wasn't a "defensively sound player" referencing McFred for one?

Apart from the first post, those are general remarks about needing a defensive specialist not specifically against Neves. And in the first post, covering space, winning headers and adding steel - I mean, you are a fan of Neves I guess but even you wouldn't advertise him with those traits wouldn`t you?

I don't see him as a defensive liability. Never did. I don't see him as somebody whose strength is defensive work. Like with Carrick, like with Busquets or with Casemiro. None of those players were just good defensively but they all had that. If you think Neves is on the same level, ok, I got it but I don't see it. Most likely because I value physicality as more important than you. Which isn't a dig, it just is what it is.

In terms of passing, positioning and intercepting, 100%. I'm confident he'll be fine with West Ham lumping it too, Neves is strong in the air. The height needs to lie more on our defence, the centre backs we bring in have to bring that presence. We could bring in two tall centre backs and potentially use Martinez as cover for Shaw with Dalot playing the more advanced role.

I agree with having tall CBs but we spend 60 million on Martinez so we kind of made a decision here. And the teams I listed usually have tall CBs AND a taller midfielder as well. It isn't an either or. And with 1,74 he is more likely to have issues in the air. Yes, there are the Lucios and the Cannavaros but they are an exception, not the rule.

Mainoo was tasked with an almost impossible job for a lot of the season as a lone midfielder in front of the defence, so there were times where he didn't seem up to it, but there were also times where he went above and beyond defensively, and proved himself in that role. Add Neves next to him in a well planned double pivot and I'm confident he can easily pull off the defensive work. It's all hypothetical and I understand your reservations, but for me, I think the skill set balance between them is perfect behind a 10 like Bruno.

I have no idea what you are talking about. This was his first year, our team was a shambles, very dysfunctional inviting so many shots and chances. I must have missed those performances of Mainoo where "he went above and beyond defensively and proved himself in that role". Feels like you are a bit too hopeful to extrapolate trends (that may have been there very thinly) into the future. The numbers speak a certain language. Mainoo and Amrabat got some praise for being defensively good when compared to Eriksen, Bruno and McTominay. But thats hardly a benchmark in my eyes.
I am happy that Mainoo is finally a player who seems very good at contributing on and off the ball, we have almost no player in midfield that you can say that about. But it is hardly a case of him being able to be the defensive screen.

I guess, we are not going to get on the same side of things today. Lets leave it at that. One thing though, answer my question about Makelele from the post earlier please.

 

[luke511]

Apart from the first post, those are general remarks about needing a defensive specialist not specifically against Neves. And in the first post, covering space, winning headers and adding steel - I mean, you are a fan of Neves I guess but even you wouldn't advertise him with those traits wouldn`t you?

I don't see him as a defensive liability. Never did. I don't see him as somebody whose strength is defensive work. Like with Carrick, like with Busquets or with Casemiro. None of those players were just good defensively but they all had that. If you think Neves is on the same level, ok, I got it but I don't see it. Most likely because I value physicality as more important than you. Which isn't a dig, it just is what it is.


I agree with having tall CBs but we spend 60 million on Martinez so we kind of made a decision here. And the teams I listed usually have tall CBs AND a taller midfielder as well. It isn't an either or. And with 1,74 he is more likely to have issues in the air. Yes, there are the Lucios and the Cannavaros but they are an exception, not the rule.


I have no idea what you are talking about. This was his first year, our team was a shambles, very dysfunctional inviting so many shots and chances. I must have missed those performances of Mainoo where "he went above and beyond defensively and proved himself in that role". Feels like you are a bit too hopeful to extrapolate trends (that may have been there very thinly) into the future. The numbers speak a certain language. Mainoo and Amrabat got some praise for being defensively good when compared to Eriksen, Bruno and McTominay. But thats hardly a benchmark in my eyes.
I am happy that Mainoo is finally a player who seems very good at contributing on and off the ball, we have almost no player in midfield that you can say that about. But it is hardly a case of him being able to be the defensive screen.

I guess, we are not going to get on the same side of things today. Lets leave it at that. One thing though, answer my question about Makelele from the post earlier please.

You must have missed it, Mainoo put in a lot of encouraging defensive work over the course of his season.

Is Makelele a player I would describe as defensively capable? That's an obvious yes.

 

[Fortitude]

The height aspect is getting overstated, especially in lieu of positioning, leap, core strength and mobility; DM's come in all heights and sizes, there is no template, especially when weighed up against the skillset that is brought to the table.

This guy is a tad shorter than Keane, Essien, Ince and a host of other CM's who had to drop back into DM or played CDM in their time, when the PL was a much burlier league than it is now. There's not even much aerial contesting to be done in defensive midfield these days, as teams don't go aerial anything like as much as they used to, nor with the same conviction and aggression.

The reasoning he might be wasted in the #6 when he is clearly a superfluous player in the #8 is a more valid concern to feel he might not be optimised as a DM, but if the role, in and of itself is to be hyper analysed, then the minutiae is going to weight other aspects of the role than height (in this day and age) more pressing matters to assess.

 

[Rozay]

The height aspect is getting overstated, especially in lieu of positioning, leap, core strength and mobility; DM's come in all heights and sizes, there is no template, especially when weighed up against the skillset that is brought to the table.

This guy is a tad shorter than Keane, Essien, Ince and a host of other CM's who had to drop back into DM or played CDM in their time, when the PL was a much burlier league than it is now. There's not even much aerial contesting to be done in defensive midfield these days, as teams don't go aerial anything like as much as they used to, nor with the same conviction and aggression.

The reasoning he might be wasted in the #6 when he is clearly a superfluous player in the #8 is a more valid concern to feel he might not be optimised as a DM, but if the role, in and of itself is to be hyper analysed, then the minutiae is going to weight other aspects of the role than height (in this day and age) more pressing matters to assess.

Indeed, the height would be far less of a concern than the fact that he has so much more to offer than being a restricted 6. I’d prefer Wharton as an actual 6, but I do think there’s a world where we sign both players, just not this summer. Neves is one we probably have to move for this summer to win the race, whereas Wharton is a conversation for 12 months time at the earliest, more likely 24 months.

 

[NZT-One]

You must have missed it, Mainoo put in a lot of encouraging defensive work over the course of his season.

Is Makelele a player I would describe as defensively capable? That's an obvious yes.

Man discussing with you in real life would be a real treat for both of us. Feels like we have different understandings for so many words

The point I was trying to bring across about Makelele is that surely wasn't just "defensively capable". He was extremely good at it, which certainly offset his height to a degree. Neither Mainoo nor Neves is on Makeleles level therefor those height comparisons don't really work in my perspective.

 

[NZT-One]

The height aspect is getting overstated, especially in lieu of positioning, leap, core strength and mobility; DM's come in all heights and sizes, there is no template, especially when weighed up against the skillset that is brought to the table.

This guy is a tad shorter than Keane, Essien, Ince and a host of other CM's who had to drop back into DM or played CDM in their time, when the PL was a much burlier league than it is now. There's not even much aerial contesting to be done in defensive midfield these days, as teams don't go aerial anything like as much as they used to, nor with the same conviction and aggression.

The reasoning he might be wasted in the #6 when he is clearly a superfluous player in the #8 is a more valid concern to feel he might not be optimised as a DM, but if the role, in and of itself is to be hyper analysed, then the minutiae is going to weight other aspects of the role than height (in this day and age) more pressing matters to assess.

I agree with the overall point but I think you underestimate height as a factor here. You are right, it isn't much of a factor these days. But not because it isn't relevant anymore but because the overall level of physicality has gone up significantly so just being tall isn't the same advantage it might have been in different eras.

I mean, we have seen a similar effect working out - Everton and even ourselves made use of Fellaini to cause rampage to opposition teams, because his physicality and height gave him an advantage every team had problems with - we used it because we could use it. And when (if) height would be known weakness of a team, I am pretty sure opposition teams will try to target that. Height and strength aren't as important as technique and intelligence but at a high level where the differences become smaller and smaller, those physical traits will play a role. It is a bit like Space Jam - who do you think would win in a match between prime tika-taka Barcelona against an alien Barcelona copy with players who are 1,95m each while having the exact same level of technique and ability? I'd put my money on the aliens.

I listed the DMs from the most successful teams in recent history, all of them are about the same height. I didn't list Casemiro yet, he is 1,85m, Fabinho is 1,88m. The obvious exception is Kimmich but he often is lined up next to Goretzka who is 1,89m. Height in midfields is still a thing at the highest level. And while it certainly shouldn't be the main criteria for selecting players, I think we'd make a mistake by ignoring it on a team level for sure, and potentially even on a role level. We had to field McTominay just for the sake of his physicality. We certainly shouldn't look down on that aspect when it is apparent that it plays a role even for our manager.

But in general: yes, if the impression has been created, that height is the deciding factor, then that is definitely not what was meant.

 

[Fortitude]

Indeed, the height would be far less of a concern than the fact that he has so much more to offer than being a restricted 6. I’d prefer Wharton as an actual 6, but I do think there’s a world where we sign both players, just not this summer. Neves is one we probably have to move for this summer to win the race, whereas Wharton is a conversation for 12 months time at the earliest, more likely 24 months.

I'm along those lines also - acquire one and then hopefully the other and in the interim, there are options on how to navigate the position even if Neves were to be sole purchase.

I think it's been forgotten that Mainoo came into this season debuting at #6 and doing a fine job of it until we went to Newcastle, where it wasn't aerial prowess that let him down, rather, being scrambled on by two pitbulls. What I'd prefer is a player that can handle that kind of issue when it arises over the odd aerially imposing game that you can reduce to a few fingers off a hand these days (all eyes on Dyche, primarily).

 

[Ekeke]

Hazard was arguably the best player in the Premier league in 18/19 season and has been top 3 best in his last 5 seasons in England, so that fee madrid paid was justified. Bellingham was also a proven player in CL and bundesliga, and a starter for England national team before his move to Madrid

On the other hand benfica like to overrate their players, no one knew enzo, nunes, ramos, felix one yr before they were sold for exorbitant fees. They literally signed enzo for 20 million from Argentina and 6 months later sold him for 120 millions.

I knew him, and said we should keep an eye on him on here as I was watching some River Plate matches shortly after Julian Alvarez agreed to go to City. And he was a world cup winner as a teenager before that transfer. So no he wasnt an unknown, he was proven well beyond his years to pretty much the highest standard - being an important part of winning one of the top competitions in the world.

I also knew Nunes as he was top scorer in the 2nd division of Spain. Had never seen him and when he signed for Benfica for the fee he signed for I thought that sounded a lot of money and what I was expecting out of the top scorer of the 2nd division. But he obviously did well at Benfica

Felix sounded too much money and same with Ramos. I've no doubt he'll be a really good striker for someone but I was surprised he went to PSG and not surprised he isnt starting all the time. Maybe he'll step up now Mbappe is off and will be a starter and top scorer next season.

 

[Rozay]

I'm along those lines also - acquire one and then hopefully the other and in the interim, there are options on how to navigate the position even if Neves were to be sole purchase.

I think it's been forgotten that Mainoo came into this season debuting at #6 and doing a fine job of it until we went to Newcastle, where it wasn't aerial prowess that let him down, rather, being scrambled on by two pitbulls. What I'd prefer is a player that can handle that kind of issue when it arises over the odd aerially imposing game that you can reduce to a few fingers off a hand these days (all eyes on Dyche, primarily).

Also worth pointing out that two of those players can handle that Newcastle sort of experience better than one. Two like-minded midfielders have a much better chance of playing their way around a Newcastle press than one alongside Mctominay. You couldn’t expect Xavi to line up alongside Scott and simply ‘play around’ Newcastle’s press. In short, with just Mainoo alone, there was much more of an emphasis on matching them physically. With Mainoo and Neves, one or two times of passing through Newcastle’s press and they’d be terrified and back off. That’s how you build teams that play to your player’s strengths, rather than just expecting Kobbie to come in and scrap. It’s also why most teams simply sit back and don’t press City. They are terrified of being played through if they do. City have shown enough ability on the ball in the face of pressure that they have the respect of opponents not to even apply a full press more often than not. That’s where we want to ultimately get to, however, with Bruno and McTominay in midfield, teams are confident they can either win the ball or force it to be played backwards so they go swarm on us.

 

[Rozay]

I knew him, and said we should keep an eye on him on here as I was watching some River Plate matches shortly after Julian Alvarez agreed to go to City. And he was a world cup winner as a teenager before that transfer. So no he wasnt an unknown, he was proven well beyond his years to pretty much the highest standard - being an important part of winning one of the top competitions in the world.

I also knew Nunes as he was top scorer in the 2nd division of Spain. Had never seen him and when he signed for Benfica for the fee he signed for I thought that sounded a lot of money and what I was expecting out of the top scorer of the 2nd division. But he obviously did well at Benfica

Felix sounded too much money and same with Ramos. I've no doubt he'll be a really good striker for someone but I was surprised he went to PSG and not surprised he isnt starting all the time. Maybe he'll step up now Mbappe is off and will be a starter and top scorer next season.

Benfica didn’t really con anyone tbh, they set clauses and clubs came and paid them. It’s not as if they simply overcharged or quoted stupid prices. There wasn’t any negotiation with Felix.

And Ramos was very proven, he’d had two seasons of regular goalscoring in the Champions League and also putting up 25 for Benfica. Scored a hat-trick at the World Cup with Portugal, he couldn’t have done much more as a young striker.

 

[Fortitude]

I agree with the overall point but I think you underestimate height as a factor here. You are right, it isn't much of a factor these days. But not because it isn't relevant anymore but because the overall level of physicality has gone up significantly so just being tall isn't the same advantage it might have been in different eras.

I mean, we have seen a similar effect working out - Everton and even ourselves made use of Fellaini to cause rampage to opposition teams, because his physicality and height gave him an advantage every team had problems with - we used it because we could use it. And when (if) height would be known weakness of a team, I am pretty sure opposition teams will try to target that. Height and strength aren't as important as technique and intelligence but at a high level where the differences become smaller and smaller, those physical traits will play a role. It is a bit like Space Jam - who do you think would win in a match between prime tika-taka Barcelona against an alien Barcelona copy with players who are 1,95m each while having the exact same level of technique and ability? I'd put my money on the aliens.

I listed the DMs from the most successful teams in recent history, all of them are about the same height. I didn't list Casemiro yet, he is 1,85m, Fabinho is 1,88m. The obvious exception is Kimmich but he often is lined up next to Goretzka who is 1,89m. Height in midfields is still a thing at the highest level. And while it certainly shouldn't be the main criteria for selecting players, I think we'd make a mistake by ignoring it on a team level for sure, and potentially even on a role level. We had to field McTominay just for the sake of his physicality. We certainly shouldn't look down on that aspect when it is apparent that it plays a role even for our manager.

But in general: yes, if the impression has been created, that height is the deciding factor, then that is definitely not what was meant.

I think the question to ask is how important is it? Height has its benefits, but it can often be at the expense of other things that smaller, legendary DM's have in abundance, namely ridiculous centres of gravity, mobility, doggedness, agility and recovery. Besides that, observing [good/great] small DM's in the position, they won't contest the first ball, but they will be in a position where it becomes very difficult to pick up the loose ball unless you're a skilled aerial player yourself, which is becoming more infrequent with the passage of time.

You've given the taller players uniformity in skills to the smaller players, but unless you have a team of Lebron-esque freaks, that's not what happens and hasn't happened with the taller players you've mentioned, either. Busquets, Rodri and Carrick are not known for their agility or mobility, but what they all had is enough of what they needed to optimise their own styles of play, just as smaller DM's optimise their own skillsets in a way that is not feasible for taller DM's unless you have Redondo-esque freaks who have the lot. You say it's a thing, but I'd say it's a unique collective whom you don't really sit around waiting on in lieu of DM's who are there or thereabouts the height of Neves - what I would be looking at if concerned about his height is how strong is he in physical tussles? How good is his positioning in disrupting taller players who look to impose size on him? What kind of leap does he have? How dogged and aggressive is he? Shorter DM's make an absolute nuisance of themselves and can't be easily shaken off, can he do that? You can't stop a bigger player with equal amounts of will to win married to athleticism outright, but you sure can make it a difficult task for him to run a game, be that in the air or in physical battles and that's what I'd be looking at in this regard.

I'm not playing down height and/or size btw, but I am saying it can be offset by other qualities, or reduced considerably as a factor if the shorter player is savvy enough. Rodri might be a unit, but he's using physical/tussle strength much more than aerial ability; the guy's a bulldozer when he wants to be, and I think that's where his size comes to the fore over the times he's invaluable for swatting away aerial bombardment - he'd have had a lot more of that to deal with in the time of the aforementioned shorter players from my previous post than he ever does now - so there are pros to height (of course there are), but in this day and age, the caveats are stronger than I've ever known, as games are almost uniformly played majority along the floor now unless an anachronistic type is coaching a team to play throwback football (big man, knock down ala Moyes and Dyche, one of whom has just been moved on). You've mentioned McTominay, but do you think it's height or playing style and desire to put himself about (physicality) that is important there?

 

[Fortitude]

Also worth pointing out that two of those players can handle that Newcastle sort of experience better than one. Two like-minded midfielders have a much better chance of playing their way around a Newcastle press than one alongside Mctominay. You couldn’t expect Xavi to line up alongside Scott and simply ‘play around’ Newcastle’s press. In short, with just Mainoo alone, there was much more of an emphasis on matching them physically. With Mainoo and Neves, one or two times of passing through Newcastle’s press and they’d be terrified and back off. That’s how you build teams that play to your player’s strengths, rather than just expecting Kobbie to come in and scrap. It’s also why most teams simply sit back and don’t press City. They are terrified of being played through if they do. City have shown enough ability on the ball in the face of pressure that they have the respect of opponents not to even apply a full press more often than not. That’s where we want to ultimately get to, however, with Bruno and McTominay in midfield, teams are confident they can either win the ball or force it to be played backwards so they go swarm on us.

Yep, that's exactly how I perceive it, too. Two of those kind of players really make it difficult for the opposition to even get physical or be in positions where they can focus on any one player for a concerted period of time; eventually they earn the 'right' to play, and the presses are executed with less and less conviction because it's a thankless task. This is also conducive to preventing that throng of players hard-lining for the DM rather than being mindful of their own shape, which dilutes the press anyway because it gets started from deeper, with less opportunities to become a double or triple press (essentially swarming with abandon).

 

[JE-365]

Why would we use him in a way that is different to the way he gained his reputation and a multi-million transfer if it was to happen? That makes no sense at all. The full first paragraph sounds plausible I guess - yet still you see sides lining up with defensive specialists in their midfields everywhere. You think nobody else came up with your ideas? Don't you think that most teams would prefer to add more ballers to their teams? Pep is the epitome of such thinking - and even he had Busquets, Javi Martinez and Rodri.

This isn't a dig at Neves, he is a fantastic player and I'd love to have him in the club but he isn't going to be the solution to all our midfield woes. We'd still need that defensive specialist (who we obviously can hope to be more than that). And given that we have limited funds maybe it isn't the smartest idea to shell out big bucks for somebody where we happen to have our own teenage wonderkid in. No doubt Neves is "the right player". But maybe not for us right now.

(and on a personal note: as an advisor, I'd strongly advise against joining Man United anyway... As much as it pains me to say)

Because he’s still 19 years old. We’re going to spend the big money not for the finished article of his Benfica’s version. We’re going to spend the big money because he has the top class talent as midfielder who has the assets of press resistant, very good with his defending, very good with his passing, and has top class professional character. There are lot of rooms to improve and develop with those assets. Modric was an attacking midfielder, then he developed to become midfielder in more deeper role, an example of player can still develop and I’m sure there tons of young players out there had developed different position as they got older, which always been common.

Signing 19 years old was never going to be the solution, it needs time. But If Neves is a press resistant, very good with his defending, intelligent player who has tactical awareness, good with his passing, and has top class professional character, if Neves has all of these means he has the assets to play or be developed in more disciplined role like Rodri’s role and to become like Rodri’s level.

 

[Redivy]

If Neves comes in, I hope we hold onto Casemiro for one more year. I don’t think it is a good idea to play with two 19 year old mids for a whole season without the appropriate players in the squad that can step in and help them develop.

Mainoo, Neves and Casemiro rotating for the two spots all season would be fantastic.

In terms of height and size in the team, my two takeaways are as follows:

1. It is incredibly rare to see two players standing stationary and then jumping up to head a ball. The best aerial players in the game are players who have the best timing and get to the ball first. It’s why Martinez beat Haaland at least three times aerially in the cup final. He simply got to the ball first.

Neves is similarly proactive like Martinez, it’s why his aerial numbers are actually good.

2. Teams such as Madrid, Barca and Bayern have had tall DMs, but they have also usually given up size in the rest of their midfield (Modric, Kroos, Xavi, Iniesta etc), and usually had small fullbacks (Marcelo, Carvajal, Lahm, Alba, Alves). Whereas our fullbacks are already quite good in the air and have good size and strength (Dalot, Shaw), and it seems like we are entertaining the thoughts of an inverted left back such as Inacio, who would give us extra size as well.

Considering attacking mids are becoming a thing of the past, it is likely that in the next 24 months, once Bruno is hitting 32-33 years old, our system will naturally change and we’ll end up with a midfield three that consists of Mainoo and Neves plus a deeper midfielder.

It is not as if Bruno is hitting his prime and we need to build around him now. So if the system doesn’t work, he will be the one to be replaced.

I just want people to actually watch Neves play and see how good he is defensively. He is closer to Kante than Xavi. This guy is a pitbull and will disrupt so many attacks before they have started.

 

[sherrinford]

I agree both Neves and Mainoo would excel next to a more positionally disciplined midfielder. And it's why I believe the most important aspect of the midfield is it's composition. And with both Bruno and Mainoo already being options in the team and also having a very promising batch of young midfielders coming through the ranks via the youth system who fit into a similar role as Joao Neves, it doesn't make a lot of sense to sign a player in a position for a huge sum of money when we would be better served signing a more positionally disciplined deeper lying midfielder to raise the level in possession and also raise our level in rest defense which should be made up of both the CBs and at least one midfielder.

I don't believe Rodri is slow at all and having watched him at Atletico Madrid and Villarreal previously, I created posts about(around 2019) how he was a perfect fit to play for us in a deeper lying role and the combination of technical quality and his physicality makes a real difference to any team that wants to play out from the back, squeeze the pitch high in a compact high block and also defend transitions in a higher line. Fernandinho did have the edge when it came to covering ground quickly but the difference wasn't that big. And Guardiola refined his system by bringing players in who could control defensive transitions in 1v1 situations. Players like Ake and Akanji were added to a team that already had Kyle Walker in the first line along with Rodri in midfield. City's rest defense is strong, much stronger than ours and that then provides them with a strong platform to thrive in possession and sacrifice defensive stability for goals.

I'm not sure which Florentino Luis you have been watching but he's someone that has a nose bleed once he goes over the half way line. The stats below are from Fbref and they clearly back up the eye and point to him and Joao Mario being the positionally more disciplined midfielders whilst Joao Neves is playing as the one Rodger Schmidt is giving the freedom play as the roaming playmaker in midfielder. It's a role that has become more and more common in recent years and I've even written numerous posts about signing such a player before the emergence of Kobbie Mainoo who fits that profile. And also take into account that Benfica are the most dominant team in their league along with SCP, and are just better than the majority of the teams bar one.

The statistics below point to Neves playing with freedom whilst the likes of Florentino Luis and Joao Mario occupy more disciplined roles in their own defensive third with their work in the opponent's half being limited. Neves is not playing as the DM in that team but a role that sees him given a lot of freedom of movement. Both Mainoo, Neves and even Bruno at times are utilised zas the first receiver in midfielder and Kokcu is another example under Arne Slot at Feyenoord, but they aren't DMs but Rather they're midfielders who are utilised as deep roaming playmakers who are given freedom of movement.

Neves

https://fbref.com/en/players/c2a15a27/Joao-Neves

Florentino Luis


https://fbref.com/en/players/881cd6be/Florentino-Luis

Joao Mario

https://fbref.com/en/players/f0021247/Joao-Mario

If a player is the first receiver in midfield then they are, by extension, in a holding midfield role and part of the rest defence, in position to control opposition counterattacks. If a player moves or rotates into position as the first receiver in midfield, they also assume the responsibilities associated with that area in the event of a loss of possession. Neves rotates in and out of that area, spending constantly-varying periods of time in a holding midfield role over the course of a game. I think it's probably fair to say that he spends the majority of his time doing so. And when he is not in said anchoring position, his vacating of said space has happened in conjunction with the other midfielder rotating in and assuming that position and the accompanying defensive responsibilities.

The point with regards to Florentino Luis is that he probably spends more time in advance of Joao Neves, and it is therefore inaccurate to describe him as being the more positionally disciplined holding midfielder. Also, though I did watch one game where Joao Mario lined up alongside Neves, I believe that was a rare occasion and in the other games I've watched he has always been in the attacking band of three, usually on the left - Kokcu was the other player who operated in midfield. Regardless of which two were deployed there, the responsibility to sit and maintain structural integrity was shared among them. Sure, Neves played with a certain freedom - but that freedom was shared with the other central midfielders too.

Also, he thrives within far more areas of the game than the average player - for someone most readily categorised with midfielders whose strengths lie on the ball, he excels in many facets of out-of-possession play too. Mainoo is similar to Xavi, Modric, Kroos and the likes - a willing and adequate defender who will do his part but isn't going to provide excellence against the ball. Neves is different. More complete. While primarily a playmaker, he also shines when the opposition look to break quickly or have established possession.

Hence why, while I maintain it is not an ideal setup, I think a Neves - Mainoo partnership is certainly workable. Either share the workload entirely and allow the two of them to interpret the game and position themselves accordingly, or designate Neves as the 6 to Mainoo's 8 and still allow them the freedom to move and rotate as they see fit. Mainoo has shown his comfort receiving in deeper areas and even in his very good cameo for England as the 8 with Rice as the 6 there were instances where I felt he, and the England side, could have benefited from him rotating into Rice's position as the deepest midfielder to better aid in building the play. Operating alongside someone comfortable as both a 6 and 8 allows Mainoo to showcase his ability to do the same.

I think he can compliment Mainoo, but speaking for myself as someone who has been advocating for his signing, I can concede that he would not be my first choice player to simply come in and screen the midfield. A large part of my advocacy is due to wanting us to play with a DM, Neves and Mainoo in the medium to long term. I am aware that in doing so, I am prioritising a more solid and controlling midfield structure over the need to have one singular high volume creator from the middle 3.

With our existing team structure, Wharton would be of greater interest to me in terms of profile. However, my long time preference has been to change our midfield structure.

I am less keen on the idea of having Neves and Mainoo play ahead of a DM, due to both players excelling in deeper areas, as either a first or second function midfielder. Basically, I haven't seen either of them display the same comfort in more advanced positions ala Iniesta or Lampard. And even with a 4-3-3 and two 8s as opposed to a 4-2-3-1 with a 10, ultimately to have a functional setup one of those midfielders still has to occupy a higher position on the field.

The obvious caveat here is that they are very young and my opinion is based on limited viewing, so there is scope for them to develop into players who thrive in higher areas or that they indeed already are more comfortable in an advanced role than they have shown when I've seen them. I just prefer to look at what I currently believe them to be.

And you are basing that on what? One fecking year? Where he mostly played in the Portugese league? You are using this to extrapolate a future in the Premier League?

Busquets - 1,89m
Rodri - 1,90m
Carrick - 1,88m

Neves 1,74m

You really think he can play the exact same role? He could head the ball away when Westham is punting it high into a congested midfield? And before you start accuse me again for focussing too much on his height - I am aware that not all players have to be tall and the main point is that the team has to have somebody to make sure heading is not vulnerability. But seeing Bruno, Mainoo and Neves in terms of height and physicality leaves me a little worried. Especially in front of Martinez. It would put a lot of pressure on the other CB. The one we also have to buy. With the limited funds you are about to spend on Neves

Maybe we see the 6 role very differently - to me it feels like you are focussing solely on the progressive aspects of the 6 position, positional discipline, taking the ball from the CBs, being a safe passing option. I focus on the ballwinning aspect of the 6. I don't know too much about Neves but I've seen Mainoo enough to know that calling him a defensive rock would be a very crass misinterpretation. The fact that you consider him as being able to "play the 6" makes me worried that Neves is too similar to Mainoo. And once again - all those teams are lining up with (tall) defensive specialists in midfield. You have to at least understand why I am worried that you are trying to sell us the idea of having two teenagers in there while also going against the grain in terms of line up in a team that was quite dysfunctional this year.

Everyone is extrapolating based on that. It's still just football they play in the English Premier League.

Very odd to pick out those three examples if your focus really is the physical and ball-winning aspects of the 6 role. While Rodri is a big unit and provides steel, the other two certainly excel more in the aspects you accuse the poster you are replying to of focusing on - positional discipline, taking the ball off the centre backs, safe passing option. They rely on their intelligence and have no aggression in their play. Busquets could probably have been blown over by a particularly stiff breeze. Neves is much more combative. Chuck a ball in the air or drop it in for a 50-50 challenge and Neves is a much better bet for coming out better off.

 

[JayLeap]

Kante - 1,68m
Neves - 1,74m

...

Busquets - 1,89m
Rodri - 1,90m
Carrick - 1,88m

Neves 1,74m

You really think he can play the exact same role? He could head the ball away when Westham is punting it high into a congested midfield? And before you start accuse me again for focussing too much on his height - I am aware that not all players have to be tall and the main point is that the team has to have somebody to make sure heading is not vulnerability. But seeing Bruno, Mainoo and Neves in terms of height and physicality leaves me a little worried. Especially in front of Martinez. It would put a lot of pressure on the other CB. The one we also have to buy. With the limited funds you are about to spend on Neves

Maybe we see the 6 role very differently - to me it feels like you are focussing solely on the progressive aspects of the 6 position, positional discipline, taking the ball from the CBs, being a safe passing option. I focus on the ballwinning aspect of the 6. I don't know too much about Neves but I've seen Mainoo enough to know that calling him a defensive rock would be a very crass misinterpretation. The fact that you consider him as being able to "play the 6" makes me worried that Neves is too similar to Mainoo. And once again - all those teams are lining up with (tall) defensive specialists in midfield. You have to at least understand why I am worried that you are trying to sell us the idea of having two teenagers in there while also going against the grain in terms of line up in a team that was quite dysfunctional this year.

 

[colombianmancunian]

Have been reading about him and watching him on YT. He seems like a competent player with a lot of promise.

What I like about this, it’s that he is a young player with a lot to grow, and can cover CDM for 10-more years. But is also a bet, he can come decent like Højlund, awesome like Bruno or shite like Antony.

 

[Wrecking ralf]

Ajax still had a defensive specialist in Alvarez in their team. Some of you guys are too eager to bunch the starting eleven full with ballers. Even the great tiki-taka Barcelona side had a defensive specialist in their team at all times. The following machine-like Bayern team had Javi Martinez in it. The Real side who got 5 CLs had Casemiro as a mainstay in it. Shouldn't that be a lesson towards not trying to ignore defensive capabilities? We haven't had that sort of solidity since Carrick. There was a short period when Matic could move a least a little bit but apart from that we didn't have a defensive specialist since Casemiro, who unfortunately seems to be unable to give us more of that any longer.

I can't really wrap my around that there are still people thinking that top teams can get around that.


Even if that is true, you still see City with Rodri on the field despite them having Walker and Akanji on the pitch.

Oh I’m not discounting the need for an out and out CDM. The style of play I was referring to wouldn’t work against every team. Ideally I’d love us to bring in Paulinha given how he’s faired in the prem. His price would be higher than someone like Wieffer though and he seemed set to move to Munich not long ago.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

20:55 Roberto Martinez speaking about him(+Antonio Silva right after)

 

[CtrlAltDeLigt]

Just from their stance in Enzo, seems impossible they’ll let him go for a penny less than the release clause.

I don’t believe he is something we need right now, would rather wait since his value won’t really go up than the huge amount it’s at right now.

This is a signing we should make when we have some level of quality and experience , that young players can come and feed off, instead of carrying the hopes and expectations of playing under extreme pressure.

 

[ManRed]

This is exactly the overpriced signing we make over the years Sancho, Antony, Hoijlund or Mount that come to my mind. Not the player we need right now. Rather go for an experienced ball winning CDM that gives Mainoo and Bruno freedom in midfield and make our defence stronger. He is a talent no doubt but not the right time for us. Priority should be CDM, RW (Unless Sancho or Mason is coming back), CB, ST and LB. 5 signings are a lot of additions in 1 window

 

[Foolsgold21]

Are there any top tier journo’s who have confirmed these links?

Or is it currently just Portuguese press?

Muppetiers seems to get quite a lot right in fairness but still, would be nice to see something from Whitwell etc.

 

[Lash]

If a player is the first receiver in midfield then they are, by extension, in a holding midfield role and part of the rest defence, in position to control opposition counterattacks. If a player moves or rotates into position as the first receiver in midfield, they also assume the responsibilities associated with that area in the event of a loss of possession. Neves rotates in and out of that area, spending constantly-varying periods of time in a holding midfield role over the course of a game. I think it's probably fair to say that he spends the majority of his time doing so. And when he is not in said anchoring position, his vacating of said space has happened in conjunction with the other midfielder rotating in and assuming that position and the accompanying defensive responsibilities.

The point with regards to Florentino Luis is that he probably spends more time in advance of Joao Neves, and it is therefore inaccurate to describe him as being the more positionally disciplined holding midfielder. Also, though I did watch one game where Joao Mario lined up alongside Neves, I believe that was a rare occasion and in the other games I've watched he has always been in the attacking band of three, usually on the left - Kokcu was the other player who operated in midfield. Regardless of which two were deployed there, the responsibility to sit and maintain structural integrity was shared among them. Sure, Neves played with a certain freedom - but that freedom was shared with the other central midfielders too.

Also, he thrives within far more areas of the game than the average player - for someone most readily categorised with midfielders whose strengths lie on the ball, he excels in many facets of out-of-possession play too. Mainoo is similar to Xavi, Modric, Kroos and the likes - a willing and adequate defender who will do his part but isn't going to provide excellence against the ball. Neves is different. More complete. While primarily a playmaker, he also shines when the opposition look to break quickly or have established possession.

Hence why, while I maintain it is not an ideal setup, I think a Neves - Mainoo partnership is certainly workable. Either share the workload entirely and allow the two of them to interpret the game and position themselves accordingly, or designate Neves as the 6 to Mainoo's 8 and still allow them the freedom to move and rotate as they see fit. Mainoo has shown his comfort receiving in deeper areas and even in his very good cameo for England as the 8 with Rice as the 6 there were instances where I felt he, and the England side, could have benefited from him rotating into Rice's position as the deepest midfielder to better aid in building the play. Operating alongside someone comfortable as both a 6 and 8 allows Mainoo to showcase his ability to do the same.



I am less keen on the idea of having Neves and Mainoo play ahead of a DM, due to both players excelling in deeper areas, as either a first or second function midfielder. Basically, I haven't seen either of them display the same comfort in more advanced positions ala Iniesta or Lampard. And even with a 4-3-3 and two 8s as opposed to a 4-2-3-1 with a 10, ultimately to have a functional setup one of those midfielders still has to occupy a higher position on the field.

The obvious caveat here is that they are very young and my opinion is based on limited viewing, so there is scope for them to develop into players who thrive in higher areas or that they indeed already are more comfortable in an advanced role than they have shown when I've seen them. I just prefer to look at what I currently believe them to be.



Everyone is extrapolating based on that. It's still just football they play in the English Premier League.

Very odd to pick out those three examples if your focus really is the physical and ball-winning aspects of the 6 role. While Rodri is a big unit and provides steel, the other two certainly excel more in the aspects you accuse the poster you are replying to of focusing on - positional discipline, taking the ball off the centre backs, safe passing option. They rely on their intelligence and have no aggression in their play. Busquets could probably have been blown over by a particularly stiff breeze. Neves is much more combative. Chuck a ball in the air or drop it in for a 50-50 challenge and Neves is a much better bet for coming out better off.

Fantastic post. Said a lot of the things I couldn't have put into a coherent post.

 

[Brightonian]

If a player is the first receiver in midfield then they are, by extension, in a holding midfield role and part of the rest defence, in position to control opposition counterattacks. If a player moves or rotates into position as the first receiver in midfield, they also assume the responsibilities associated with that area in the event of a loss of possession. Neves rotates in and out of that area, spending constantly-varying periods of time in a holding midfield role over the course of a game. I think it's probably fair to say that he spends the majority of his time doing so. And when he is not in said anchoring position, his vacating of said space has happened in conjunction with the other midfielder rotating in and assuming that position and the accompanying defensive responsibilities.

The point with regards to Florentino Luis is that he probably spends more time in advance of Joao Neves, and it is therefore inaccurate to describe him as being the more positionally disciplined holding midfielder. Also, though I did watch one game where Joao Mario lined up alongside Neves, I believe that was a rare occasion and in the other games I've watched he has always been in the attacking band of three, usually on the left - Kokcu was the other player who operated in midfield. Regardless of which two were deployed there, the responsibility to sit and maintain structural integrity was shared among them. Sure, Neves played with a certain freedom - but that freedom was shared with the other central midfielders too.

Also, he thrives within far more areas of the game than the average player - for someone most readily categorised with midfielders whose strengths lie on the ball, he excels in many facets of out-of-possession play too. Mainoo is similar to Xavi, Modric, Kroos and the likes - a willing and adequate defender who will do his part but isn't going to provide excellence against the ball. Neves is different. More complete. While primarily a playmaker, he also shines when the opposition look to break quickly or have established possession.

Hence why, while I maintain it is not an ideal setup, I think a Neves - Mainoo partnership is certainly workable. Either share the workload entirely and allow the two of them to interpret the game and position themselves accordingly, or designate Neves as the 6 to Mainoo's 8 and still allow them the freedom to move and rotate as they see fit. Mainoo has shown his comfort receiving in deeper areas and even in his very good cameo for England as the 8 with Rice as the 6 there were instances where I felt he, and the England side, could have benefited from him rotating into Rice's position as the deepest midfielder to better aid in building the play. Operating alongside someone comfortable as both a 6 and 8 allows Mainoo to showcase his ability to do the same.



I am less keen on the idea of having Neves and Mainoo play ahead of a DM, due to both players excelling in deeper areas, as either a first or second function midfielder. Basically, I haven't seen either of them display the same comfort in more advanced positions ala Iniesta or Lampard. And even with a 4-3-3 and two 8s as opposed to a 4-2-3-1 with a 10, ultimately to have a functional setup one of those midfielders still has to occupy a higher position on the field.

The obvious caveat here is that they are very young and my opinion is based on limited viewing, so there is scope for them to develop into players who thrive in higher areas or that they indeed already are more comfortable in an advanced role than they have shown when I've seen them. I just prefer to look at what I currently believe them to be.



Everyone is extrapolating based on that. It's still just football they play in the English Premier League.

Very odd to pick out those three examples if your focus really is the physical and ball-winning aspects of the 6 role. While Rodri is a big unit and provides steel, the other two certainly excel more in the aspects you accuse the poster you are replying to of focusing on - positional discipline, taking the ball off the centre backs, safe passing option. They rely on their intelligence and have no aggression in their play. Busquets could probably have been blown over by a particularly stiff breeze. Neves is much more combative. Chuck a ball in the air or drop it in for a 50-50 challenge and Neves is a much better bet for coming out better off.

I think this is an excellent post and so informative for someone like me who hasn't watched much of Neves outside of his Portugal run-outs and highlight reels.

But my question is: if you have to consider in this much detail to make the argument that he is defensively solid enough to make a partnership with Mainoo, surely it is too much of a risk at £80m+. That is the kind of money you should only ever spend on an absolute square-peg-square-hole superstar. Even if everything you say is absolutely right - and I have no reason to suggest otherwise - it's a concerning amount of strategic gymnastics. Your post pitching for an £80m+ player should just need to say 'He's obviously a perfect signing for what we need' and expect most people to just agree.

Personally I think our last ten years of signings are irrefutable evidence that signings at the top end of the market are just not good business or a good footballing strategy for any team not well established at the very top of the game, or at least their league. City, Real, maybe Bayern. We shouldn't be doing them at all. Because no signing is actually ever a sure thing, except in a team which could basically guarantee success even without that signing. At a team in our situation, where theoretically anyone could struggle, they're a terrible idea.

So much as I think Neves is a wonderful player who I'd love to watch in a United shirt, and your argument in favour is very compelling, I can't see this as a good signing for us.

 

[Rozay]

If a player is the first receiver in midfield then they are, by extension, in a holding midfield role and part of the rest defence, in position to control opposition counterattacks. If a player moves or rotates into position as the first receiver in midfield, they also assume the responsibilities associated with that area in the event of a loss of possession. Neves rotates in and out of that area, spending constantly-varying periods of time in a holding midfield role over the course of a game. I think it's probably fair to say that he spends the majority of his time doing so. And when he is not in said anchoring position, his vacating of said space has happened in conjunction with the other midfielder rotating in and assuming that position and the accompanying defensive responsibilities.

The point with regards to Florentino Luis is that he probably spends more time in advance of Joao Neves, and it is therefore inaccurate to describe him as being the more positionally disciplined holding midfielder. Also, though I did watch one game where Joao Mario lined up alongside Neves, I believe that was a rare occasion and in the other games I've watched he has always been in the attacking band of three, usually on the left - Kokcu was the other player who operated in midfield. Regardless of which two were deployed there, the responsibility to sit and maintain structural integrity was shared among them. Sure, Neves played with a certain freedom - but that freedom was shared with the other central midfielders too.

Also, he thrives within far more areas of the game than the average player - for someone most readily categorised with midfielders whose strengths lie on the ball, he excels in many facets of out-of-possession play too. Mainoo is similar to Xavi, Modric, Kroos and the likes - a willing and adequate defender who will do his part but isn't going to provide excellence against the ball. Neves is different. More complete. While primarily a playmaker, he also shines when the opposition look to break quickly or have established possession.

Hence why, while I maintain it is not an ideal setup, I think a Neves - Mainoo partnership is certainly workable. Either share the workload entirely and allow the two of them to interpret the game and position themselves accordingly, or designate Neves as the 6 to Mainoo's 8 and still allow them the freedom to move and rotate as they see fit. Mainoo has shown his comfort receiving in deeper areas and even in his very good cameo for England as the 8 with Rice as the 6 there were instances where I felt he, and the England side, could have benefited from him rotating into Rice's position as the deepest midfielder to better aid in building the play. Operating alongside someone comfortable as both a 6 and 8 allows Mainoo to showcase his ability to do the same.



I am less keen on the idea of having Neves and Mainoo play ahead of a DM, due to both players excelling in deeper areas, as either a first or second function midfielder. Basically, I haven't seen either of them display the same comfort in more advanced positions ala Iniesta or Lampard. And even with a 4-3-3 and two 8s as opposed to a 4-2-3-1 with a 10, ultimately to have a functional setup one of those midfielders still has to occupy a higher position on the field.

The obvious caveat here is that they are very young and my opinion is based on limited viewing, so there is scope for them to develop into players who thrive in higher areas or that they indeed already are more comfortable in an advanced role than they have shown when I've seen them. I just prefer to look at what I currently believe them to be.



Everyone is extrapolating based on that. It's still just football they play in the English Premier League.

Very odd to pick out those three examples if your focus really is the physical and ball-winning aspects of the 6 role. While Rodri is a big unit and provides steel, the other two certainly excel more in the aspects you accuse the poster you are replying to of focusing on - positional discipline, taking the ball off the centre backs, safe passing option. They rely on their intelligence and have no aggression in their play. Busquets could probably have been blown over by a particularly stiff breeze. Neves is much more combative. Chuck a ball in the air or drop it in for a 50-50 challenge and Neves is a much better bet for coming out better off.

To me he is a player like Verratti. Or even Gavi. And Mainoo is not dissimilar to Pedri, who is not a 10, but he’s like a 10-leaning 8.

I wouldn’t expect to see Gavi and Pedri in a double pivot. You want both of them roaming, and I think Gavi and Pedri with a 6 is a very balanced midfield and don’t see why Mainoo, Neves and say Wharton couldn’t be of that sort of standard.