Jesse Lingard | Seoul singer

golden_blunder said:
Would you rather players went partying in their downtime? Before social media that’s what they did
As long as they do t say anything controversial I don’t see the problem
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Bit of a generalisation here, no? I think that as the game has professionalized to a greater and greater degree this side of things has naturally fallen away and that this is a far bigger driver than social media, but regardless, it's not like all players in the 90s were out on the piss all the time on the off season.

Just to make sure I understand, are you making the argument that social media has replaced partying for players, or that player don't go out partying because social media is so ubiquitous that they'd be all over Twitter as soon as they step out?
 
NotThatSoph said:
I am, but if that was a step too far lets go with this instead: Have you ever been less than impressed with anything at a place of work? I know I have.

As for little intimate knowledge, I'm kind of doubting that you're being serious here. Lingard is very obviously right about what he said. If you said that even though he is right he shouldn't care, or that even if he is right and that it's ok to care he shouldn't tell anyone, then ok I guess. But he is right. United's Internet presence is very bad, MUTV is trash (just ask anyone following the youth side).

It's also pretty strange to take what he's saying in isolation, when what he's doing is obviously commentating about the general state of the club. He and others have brought up United's sub-par facilities for the first team, on basically all levels: training, recovery, rehabilitation, recreation, data science and other forms of technology etc. Anyone following the youth teams will tell you that investment has been similarly lacking there compared to other top clubs. Why would you treat this as a standalone thing rather than as symptomatic of United's post-SAF woes?
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I've been thinking this deserves a thread of it's own. Our youtube channel and training clips are absolutely god awful. Basic, bland and devoid of any personality.
 
A few things are very obvious about Jesse to me:

1. He was the leak which is why he always got a free ride in the press despite his performances (And things calming down since he left)
2. He proves how mad football is. The fact this guy is a millionaire from "Playing" football for one of the biggest clubs in the world is madness
3. He's more interested in branding and social media than he is football
4. He might not be a "bad" person but is 100% a tool

That's all there is to say about him really.
 
Hughes35 said:
A few things are very obvious about Jesse to me:

1. He was the leak which is why he always got a free ride in the press despite his performances (And things calming down since he left)
2. He proves how mad football is. The fact this guy is a millionaire from "Playing" football for one of the biggest clubs in the world is madness
3. He's more interested in branding and social media than he is football
4. He might not be a "bad" person but is 100% a tool

That's all there is to say about him really.
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Agree with all this.

I don't hate him (because hate is a pretty strong word / feeling) but I'm quite happy he is no longer part of the team / squad, and would be even happier to never hear about him again.
 
Abhinav said:
Watched the video, it was sad what he went through on a personal level.
However, he came across a little bit entitled and not having the winners mentality.
What summed it up for me was his reason to choose Nottingham Forest over West Ham. In his own words, “They showed him more love and flew him here and there”. Nothing wrong with it but shows he has his priorities crossed.
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One: it absolutely nornal to pick a club that shows more love and attention.
Second: have you seen West Ham an Forest in the PL table?
 
I don't get his social media comments, but maybe I don't pay attention to what other clubs do on social media and social media in general (apart from Twitter). The fact remains though United have the most followers on social media of any English club and by some distance. We are only behind the Spanish giants. He is probably sad that since he left he isn't getting as much attention as he used to do.
 
Robbie Boy said:
You're arguing with yourself at this point...
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I didn’t watch the full interview yet could see he praised Ole from one article. You deduced that from one article where Ole wasn’t even mentioned that he mustn’t have not got on with him. No body needs to watch 70 mins of the interview before backing up their facts.
 
Forest Red said:
He was playing well before he got injured. The front three of him MGW and Brennan were starting to click. It’s just a shame the whole team froze and OT. I think the issue was getting used to a team that predominantly is out of possession and hits on the break. He was brilliant against Spurs in the cup and deserved MOTM.
Dennis has earned the worst signing of the summer title and could even be moved on this window. When he manages not to fall over he can’t make a decision and loses the ball.
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Cheers. Still quite a wage for a player so injured though
 
TheGame said:
I didn’t watch the full interview yet could see he praised Ole from one article. You deduced that from one article where Ole wasn’t even mentioned that he mustn’t have not got on with him. No body needs to watch 70 mins of the interview before backing up their facts.
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I made a comment based on an excerpt someone posted. You made up lies. Time to get the feck over it. Someone else said he praised Ole - who actually watched it - and that's fab.
 
Pickle85 said:
Bit of a generalisation here, no? I think that as the game has professionalized to a greater and greater degree this side of things has naturally fallen away and that this is a far bigger driver than social media, but regardless, it's not like all players in the 90s were out on the piss all the time on the off season.

Just to make sure I understand, are you making the argument that social media has replaced partying for players, or that player don't go out partying because social media is so ubiquitous that they'd be all over Twitter as soon as they step out?
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I’m not saying that they are never partying, look at grealish and that whole car incident last year. But it’s certainly less seen in the media these days, and it would definitely be all over Twitter if a player was drinking himself silly. See Darron Gibson at Sunderland for example.
think back to giggs and sharpe being sent home from a party by fergie
Things have become a lot more professional. If a players worst pass time is a social media presence, so what? There’s much more that would be worse (for example Sterling and laughing gas etc)
 
golden_blunder said:
I’m not saying that they are never partying, look at grealish and that whole car incident last year. But it’s certainly less seen in the media these days, and it would definitely be all over Twitter if a player was drinking himself silly. See Darron Gibson at Sunderland for example.
think back to giggs and sharpe being sent home from a party by fergie
Things have become a lot more professional. If a players worst pass time is a social media presence, so what? There’s much more that would be worse (for example Sterling and laughing gas etc)
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Yup, agreed with all this. I would much rather players were messing around on socials than out painting the town red (or blue, I suppose, if you're citeh). What grates on me is that: 1. I don't think that players should be voicing an opinion on their club's social media strategy. It's not within their scope of work and, to me, only solidifies the impression that Lingard would rather be an influencer or social media star than a footballer. 2. His social media output was so toe-curlingly bad that even rival fans were using it to laugh at the club, so for Lingard to then criticise the club's use of social media seems ridiculous and shows a massive lack of self-awareness.

Ultimately, Lingard won't care less what chumps like me on the internet make of his social media antics - I'm sure he leads a pretty great life (hopefully he's through his mental health issues) - but it's also clear that if you present yourself on social media the way he has, with the express intention of gaining follows and attention, it won't always be positive.
 
Forest Red said:
He was playing well before he got injured. The front three of him MGW and Brennan were starting to click. It’s just a shame the whole team froze and OT. I think the issue was getting used to a team that predominantly is out of possession and hits on the break. He was brilliant against Spurs in the cup and deserved MOTM.
Dennis has earned the worst signing of the summer title and could even be moved on this window. When he manages not to fall over he can’t make a decision and loses the ball.
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How has his fitness been? I was at the United game against Forest and thought he looked heavy and out of shape.
 
ROFLUTION said:
Cheers. Still quite a wage for a player so injured though
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He’s been out for a couple of weeks and will be back soon - prob in time for the cup semi final.
Rockets Redglare said:
How has his fitness been? I was at the United game against Forest and thought he looked heavy and out of shape.
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There’s not been any whispers about him here. The fact he gets picked when he’s fit suggests the club are happy with his fitness. I wouldn’t judge him or us on that match - it was a horribly flat performance that none of us expected.
 
I find it kind of interesting how the criticisms of Lingard are pretty varying depending on the individual. I just want to go into each of the main ones I've noticed.

1. He spends a lot of time posting on social media
I wouldn't say he's obsessed, but even if he were, I don't see the problem with this in itself. I think a lot of older supporters probably point this out more than younger supporters, because younger generations are more and more likely to make heavy use of social media, it's part of the culture of these generations. Even older ones are starting to be more prominent in recent times, although that is primarily Facebook. But yeah, for me, this is not something that really justifies criticism. It's just a personal choice on how they spend their time.

2. He does stupid dances
See above, but take out the generational thing. Remember when everyone did the macarena? What about cowboys doing line dancing. Are they stupid? What about ballet performers, breakdancers, all those hot girls you probably are more than happy to watch when they do their thing in the latest music video or on stage. What about cheerleaders? Are they all stupid? No. The guy likes to dance. This is something that has been done since time prehistoric. It's not an issue. Most of us have probably danced. I don't like to dance, but I've done it. And I don't think it's bad that other people DO like to dance. It's a hobby of choice.

3. He has a stupid nickname
Have you seen the nicknames of the people mocking him for using JLingz? We all do this. If he was going around with pretty much any of the usernames posting in this thread, he'd probably be mocked just the same. Hypocricy.

4. He is overpaid
He's paid the amount that someone is willing to pay him. That is not his fault in any way whatsoever. Footballers still pale in comparison to what most people earn in other industries. They just happen to have their name in the papers on a daily basis, while I doubt many of you know who most of the billionaires in our country are, let alone the 2,850,000 millionaires in the UK. Clue: Most of them aren't footballers. For perspective, as of May 2022, only 20 active footballers in the UK have over £20m to their name (this included Pogba, Shaw, Rashford and Varane at United). Yes, the top level footballers earn a lot of money - but even the highest earning footballers are genuinely earning very little compared to the highest earners in almost every other industry. They're just in our faces all the time, that's all. I agree that footballers are paid a lot of money, but I don't agree with how society makes a target out of them when they are still trivial numbers compared to other industries where it's so, so, so much easier to earn big money.

5. He underperformed for us
This is subjective, first and foremost, and there is a lot to dissect. Was he working hard? Was he following instructions? Was he showing up for training? Was he performing better than the alternatives we had in his position? If the answers to all of these questions are "Yes", then we have no right to complain about his level of performance, we only have a right to complain that our club wasn't able to bring in a better option. I have yet to hear that Lingard was not working hard enough from anyone from Manchester United except himself and that should be something we respect, we generally like a player who thinks he can do better and has accountability, regardless if it's humility, self-deprecation or valid. He wasn't picking the team, so even if he wasn't performing as good as alternative players, I'd say that'sstill not an issue with Lingard, but an issue with the manager. As far as I can tell, Lingard by all accounts except his own was actually a very good hard working player.

6. He was the leak!
I think most of us can agree that there were multiple leaks, and I think we're generally playing a guessing game on establishing who they are. There's no way to know for certain. However, I do feel that this is the most valid criticism if you feel it's genuinely likely that he was a key leak at our club. But I'm more a person who prefers to err on the side of innocent until proven guilty. Personally I will always be giving Pogba the side-eye on this regard, so I respect that just as I have the right to suspect Pogba, you guys have the right to suspect Lingard. Maybe both of them did it. I dunno. But I don't think I'll ever know. Honestly it could have been Mata and Matic and I'd be none the wiser.

7. He insulted our club
Did he? Does he? Where? I haven't seen this. I've seen him criticising it and we all do that on a daily basis. I dare say you find more that people in this forum are the ones who are more likely to insult Manchester United. Lingard, as far as I know, hasn't insulted the club. Henderson did a bit, Ronaldo arguably did, Pogba probably did. Lingard? Not that I'm currently aware of.

8. He's just annoying!
Yeah, I suppose him posting his views on things in a public, online environment is annoying. Wait, what are we doing in this thread again? ...Ah.

So honestly I think #6 (Leak) is the only valid criticism, but it's entirely without proof, equivalent to a conspiracy theory at this point. Perhaps #5 (Underperformance) is valid but from all accounts I'm aware of he was at the very least doing more to earn his playtime than others competing with him were, or else he simply didn't get played. I suppose #8 (Annoying) is a reason for anyone to dislike anyone, but seriously, it's not worth the extremes some people go to for any footballer. Perhaps some of us need to take a step back and focus on more important things than the people who annoy us.

Anyway, thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, or whatever it is that the kids say these days at the end of a monologue.
 
GifLord said:
He was good for a whole month and people still believing he will come good almost a year after.
Then all the mental gymnastics started as to why he's still starting for us. Because he's a world class runner, he draws defenders to him...
This forum has gone so downhill in the last 10 years. It's at rawk levels of delusion when it comes to overpraising certain players.
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That someone thinks the caf overpraised Jesse Lingard might be the strangest thing I've ever read on here. Not saying that there weren't people who didn't do that but it's pretty obvious to anyone who has been on this forum for the last decade that the overwhelming majority of posts about Lingard have been negative, regardless if it's about his performances on the pitch or his private life.

Everyone is not going to agree about everything and there will always be those who support a player no matter what simply because he's wearing the right shirt, but I'll take that any day of the week over having to read about how shit this United forum is because a minority of United fans praise some United players too much.
 
Lingard's issue is that he was just unlikeable (played in a losing team) and United are much better off now that they have a squad that's more likeable (winning games in the immediate present)
 
Zlaatan said:
That someone thinks the caf overpraised Jesse Lingard might be the strangest thing I've ever read on here. Not saying that there weren't people who didn't do that but it's pretty obvious to anyone who has been on this forum for the last decade that the overwhelming majority of posts about Lingard have been negative, regardless if it's about his performances on the pitch or his private life.

Everyone is not going to agree about everything and there will always be those who support a player no matter what simply because he's wearing the right shirt, but I'll take that any day of the week over having to read about how shit this United forum is because a minority of United fans praise some United players too much.
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This made me realise how interesting the words we use are. Supporter, fan, praise.

Support: We should all support our players unless they're doing something we are against. If you don't like racism, and they're a racist, it's fair not to support them. But generally, by default, we should all be supporting our players, even if they aren't performing well. We don't have to support them by saying they should start every game, but we should want them to do well on the pitch, and encourage them to do so. Support is something that every player should get until they have done something unforgiveable. And even then, we could say we support them learning and becoming better. I think generally, people should support each other more rather than less. Nobody here should be vilified for supporting a player in a general sense. I supported Giggs, after all, but I don't support him sleeping with his brother's wife. I support Evra, but I don't agree with him siding with Ronaldo on some things. It's okay to want a person to be better, and to do it in a positive way.
Fan: Short for fanatic. Technically this isn't a bad thing in itself, but it can breed ignorance, as it suggests that you will follow someone blindly. Perhaps they deserve that, but if they stop deserving it, then a fanatic would continue supporting them regardless, agreeing with every good - or bad - thing the person says. Generally, we should be supporters, not fans. But that's all technically. Reality is that fan is just another word for supporter these days, and that's generally okay.
Praise: And then we come down to this part. Are we praising someone for suggesting he's not the worst person in the world? No! It's absolutely okay to defend a player from being accused of being the worst guy to play football in the Premier League. This doesn't mean we think he's the best, most people who defend Lingard don't think he should be starting for us at all. It's just a case of being reasonable with criticism, being understanding that the player is only human. He said that the barrage of vitriol (and there certainly was a lot of it) being thrown at him led him to being depressed (along with other things in his personal life), and that only made him perform worse. That's being human, and perhaps if we were a little more reasonable with our critiques of players then they might actually work harder for us.
 
Zlaatan said:
That someone thinks the caf overpraised Jesse Lingard might be the strangest thing I've ever read on here.
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Heh, yes.

It's not uncommon, though. You'll find something similar even in the case of Maguire, i.e. the idea that he's somehow above criticism because...something (he's English, say - when it's blatantly obvious that the Caf does in no way lean towards any kind of pro-English - in a Daily Mail-ish sense - stance).

Or - Rashford. He's been popular (again) of late, of course, but it wasn't long ago that a significant majority on here wanted him sold ASAP. Yet you'd see posters claiming that he too was overpraised/untouchable/and so forth.

Some people just make up a scenario in which they belong to a select few who have seen the truth (i.e. the idiots who do not agree with me are the majority, I belong to the intelligent minority) - there's probably a term for that.
 
TheGame said:
We’ll agree to disagree. Let’s move on.
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I'm not sure what we're agreeing to disagree about tbh? I made a comment based on the excerpt that was posted. It's since been clarified that he praised Ole, and I have no issue with that, and haven't tried to state otherwise.

You're the one who came in here with an arsey attitude with your whole "Eh" to start a response. You could have been more pleasant and clarified that the excerpt was incorrect, or misleading. You then attempted to gaslight me and made up some nonsense about me saying Lingard "hated" Ole. Your issue seems to lie with the Reddit poster who posted the excerpt, so maybe take your ire out on them. You should have politely apologised to me for the gaslighting but you chose not to.
 
Robbie Boy said:
I'm not sure what we're agreeing to disagree about tbh? I made a comment based on the excerpt that was posted. It's since been clarified that he praised Ole, and I have no issue with that, and haven't tried to state otherwise.

You're the one who came in here with an arsey attitude with your whole "Eh" to start a response. You could have been more pleasant and clarified that the excerpt was incorrect, or misleading. You then attempted to gaslight me and made up some nonsense about me saying Lingard "hated" Ole. Your issue seems to lie with the Reddit poster who posted the excerpt, so maybe take your ire out on them. You should have politely apologised to me for the gaslighting but you chose not to.
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Read my previous message before getting your knickers in a twist. I apologised for saying you mentioned hate when you didn’t. No idea why you are getting worked up about eh as I was just wondering where you figured he didn’t like Ole when it was in a clear article he did. You’ve stated that was based on an excerpt and not checking the rest of the interview that’s fine.
 
Wonder Pigeon said:
Lingard's issue is that he was just unlikeable (played in a losing team) and United are much better off now that they have a squad that's more likeable (winning games in the immediate present)
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I don't think that's the case, listening to the podcast it's quite clear that the environment was the issue. Many excellent players that just couldn't perform at United, and after one or two signings you'd think it's the individual, however consistent signings and good managers all having the same result leaves only the environment being the root cause of all of our issues.

The difference between then and now is Ed Woodward leaving, and a manager with discipline coming in. It's a different discussion whether Lingard would have made it in a ETH era, but its clear from that interview he's having to balance a lot outside of football in his personal life.
 
TheGame said:
I was just wondering where you figured he didn’t like Ole when it was in a clear article he did. You’ve stated that was based on an excerpt and not checking the rest of the interview that’s fine.
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Ah, cool.
 
Loony BoB said:
Read the BBC article and watched some clips.

Abuse from fans and problems with mum's health led to depression and I can totally understand that. Everyone goes on about how much money he earned... honestly, I save a lot of money while I'm depressed. I don't do much at all. I have more money than I need at those times. I don't even look at the bank account, it takes care of itself. Money doesn't buy you happiness is a cliché, but one based on copious amounts of people who have valid experiences. Once you can manage your utility bills, afford shelter over your head, afford warmth, food and health... honestly, money after that is nice and it gives some short term highs (holidays, events, etc) but generally it doesn't make you instantly wonderful and happy at all. People saying things equal to "this guy earned a lot of money so he has no right to talk about being depressed" - that's honestly pure ignorance. Either you've never been depressed, in which case congratulations (I wasn't depressed until I was in my 30s and very financially comfortable - it can happen for any kind of reason)... or you have been depressed but not financially stable, in which case I can sympathise with you, but still think you're being ignorant about it. Ignorance isn't always intentional, I respect that, I'm sure I'm ignorant of a huge amount of things too, such as what it's like to be black in a white-dominant country, or white in a black-dominant country, or to be pregnant, or whatever. But a little empathy goes a long way.

Generally speaking, I back what he's said about the club, I agree with pretty much all his thoughts on it. At least Lingard is focusing more on "the club needs to do better" rather than "I deserve to start every game, I'm amazing". I agree that if you're asked if you want time off it shouldn't be published to the media. I agree that having a manager ask about your mum when she's having problems is a good thing to happen. I agree the club needs better facilities, and that he deserved five minutes having been at the club as long as he was (people are comparing him to Januzaj who was here for just 4 years of his life, while Lingard was here for 22 years, how is that even comparable).

The website and social media management? Maybe that's a bit far. I'm not bothered about the lack of games room, although I can appreciate that it would be nice if I were at that level but I wouldn't speak about it to the media. It's probably the only area I can critique him on this interview from what I've been reading about what he said.

I agree with many saying that people are showcasing hatred and disgusting views in this thread. Lingard danced on TikTok sometimes and had a silly nickname. I don't like to dance, personally, and I don't like attention on social media... but I have absolutely had a silly nickname (it's right there, you can read it, I got it when I was 12 and it stuck for life). If he likes dancing and showing off his life on the internet, that's up to him. So long as he puts in the effort on the pitch, I don't mind. From all accounts, all the players and most of the managers appreciated and liked the guy, I don't recall constant criticisms about him not working hard enough, or not turning up on time, or anything like that. People just see a dude dancing and not scoring goals and they think he should be spending literally every single second of his entire life trying to become the next Messi. Even Messi and Ronaldo took holidays, and I'm sure they both spend time doing things they enjoy outside of football. If Lingard likes to dance on TikTok or Instagram or whatever, so be it. I don't care. People getting livid at him for it just come across as jaded and bitter.

I don't think Lingard is one of the greatest players we've had at all, I think he was a solid bench player and at times he did justify starting. I don't have any issues with his tenure here. And the things he is saying about the club, are, quite frankly, things that (games room aside) should be said, as they encourage change.

Ronaldo's interview was a billion times worse than this, though. Lingard talked about his personal issues and failings and didn't seem to have any disagreement with the club's assessment of his position or status within the club, he wasn't insisting (that I have heard/seen/read) that he should have been played more often, that he was better than anyone else. He was simply saying he should have got 5 minutes to say bye to the club (I agree), that the facilities should have been better (I agree), that the club shouldn't publish to the media that he requested time off when the club asked him first (I agree), that depression is rough (I agree), that family problems are hard (I agree), and his personal experiences with each of the managers (which weren't terrible assessments, he had at least some positive things to say about LVG, Mourinho and Ole).
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Great post, couldn't agree more
 
Pickle85 said:
Yup, agreed with all this. I would much rather players were messing around on socials than out painting the town red (or blue, I suppose, if you're citeh). What grates on me is that: 1. I don't think that players should be voicing an opinion on their club's social media strategy. It's not within their scope of work and, to me, only solidifies the impression that Lingard would rather be an influencer or social media star than a footballer. 2. His social media output was so toe-curlingly bad that even rival fans were using it to laugh at the club, so for Lingard to then criticise the club's use of social media seems ridiculous and shows a massive lack of self-awareness.

Ultimately, Lingard won't care less what chumps like me on the internet make of his social media antics - I'm sure he leads a pretty great life (hopefully he's through his mental health issues) - but it's also clear that if you present yourself on social media the way he has, with the express intention of gaining follows and attention, it won't always be positive.
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I really couldn’t care less about our social media tbh, it doesn’t affect results,
 
Its possible to have genuine mental health (and related) issued, whilst also being an idiot. One doesnt have to exclude the other.
 
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