Jesse Lingard | Seoul singer

I remembered why Jaap Staam was given the bum`s rush out of the club - in his book he referred more or less to United tapping him when he was playing in the Netherlands. Then after he was sold like lightning to Lazio when his book came out, he was in trouble for having a banned substance in his blood which apparently other players in the Netherlands national team had.

Apologists for Sir Alex`s actions said that was why but it seems a case of wise after the fact. It was the book`s reference to tapping and Sir Alex would have been furious about it - which explains the here today, gone tomorrow with no explanations. If it had been about doping in the Dutch team, I`m fairly sure it would have been discussed with Jaap privately. The official version put out at the time was that Jaap was sold because he`d lost pace but again, he wouldn`t have been out of there like that if it had been the case.

Jaap was a great defender and apparently well liked and seen as a good bloke at the club, had a good relationship with Sir Alex. The directness of his giving away how United approached him when it shouldn`t have was the reason.
 
golden_blunder said:
Always irks me a little when people say that he didn’t have the talent to play at this level. He did. But he fell into a hole of depression and fan led toxicity because they didn’t like his dance. He has never wronged the club and by all accounts he’s a nice lad. I can’t understand the pelters that he gets from our fans.

Tell you what, he’d have been a star had he played for Amorim



Damn not loading. In YouTube look up “Jessie Lingard best Manchester united goals” and choose the top 10 compilation
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Lingard was a high-pressing number 10. So he would not get into the current side before Bruno.
 
Xeque_279 said:
With Bruno in midfield he absolutely would.

Wish his career went better than it did here. Absolute joy to watch when in form.
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You're very good at what you do. Haha. Got another one. Hook, line, and sinker.

Made me laugh. Cheers!
 
He didn't cause it but he's a catalyst to turn the club into a bigger joke. Him and some others needed a proper guidance and the club didn't have it. So what's left was just their own default point of view about football, which was not about keeping your head down and working hard. So both sides are at fault but mainly the club for being so clueless. The club had seen how Fergie handled bad attitudes for decades and they learned feck all.
 
tenpoless said:
He didn't cause it but he's a catalyst to turn the club into a bigger joke. Him and some others needed a proper guidance and the club didn't have it. So what's left was just their own default point of view about football, which was not about keeping your head down and working hard. So both sides are at fault but mainly the club for being so clueless. The club had seen how Fergie handled bad attitudes for decades and they learned feck all.
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Meh, players are allowed to have fun. They can work hard and be silly too. Agree that guidance was needed, and they needed help in finding more balance.
 
stevoc said:
He could have been good at defending if he wanted to be. He's big guy with a great physique as well as his technical gifts.

But all he was ever interested in doing was roaming about in a free role trying to show how skillful he is.
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I don't think that's true that he would definitely have been good at defending if he wanted to be. Perhaps better than he was but defending in itself is a skill and requires a lot of natural talent. He wasn't that type of player.

It's like saying Zidane could have been good at defending, or Totti or Nedved.

I just feel because of his size and physique, he got type-cast.

That said, I think it's obvious Pogba didn't have much discipline in his play at all.
 
Alot is being said about Pogba, Jesse and Rashy if they played under SAF. Here's my 2c


Pogba was one of SAF's rare mistakes ie he should have never mentioned him as a reason behind not investing in CM. As per usual SAF was defending the club but by doing so he placed a very ambitious and a very inpatient player under the spot light. That was a mistake.

Pogba didn't play with United for two reasons. First of all he wasn't yet ready. Sure he had all the technical and physical attributes to succeed but he lacked the maturity needed to make all of that work together effectively. Secondly its because SAF's last team couldn't sustain it. Carrick was growing old, Scholes was ancient and they needed grit rather then a fancy AM. Juventus were in a better position to cover for the latter (prime Vidal and a magnificent Pirlo) and they couldn't be arsed about the former. The end result is the mess we see at present ie a 31 year old player with the football maturity of a 17 year old. FFS the likes of Giggs, Maldini and Baresi had ten times the football maturity at age 17 then Pogba has at 31.

Regarding Lingard and Rashy I am 100% sure that they would have featured in SAF's team. They were both young, eager, talented and could play in multiple roles. That's a no brainer for SAF who always boosted the squad with academy players so he could spend the dosh on top talent. I dare to say that under SAF's guidance at least 1 if not both would have ended WC players. SAF wouldn't have pushed them ahead of their time as a desperate LVG did with Rashy and he would have made sure to keep them as far away from the spot light as humanely possible. The two would also have had the time to develop their skills and Rashford would be a far better player then this inside forward whose over reliant on pace. Things are different with the likes of Sancho though. Hell would freeze before SAF would buy him up

SAF's retirement costed us a second SAF's babes with Lingard (squad player but Oshea style), Rashy (first teamer), Greenwood (first teamer), McTominay (he who would be further developed and he'd be squad/first teamer level), Welbeck (squad player), Januzaj (who we foolishly saddled him with Ryan Giggs former shirt btw - he'd be squad/first teamer) and Garnacho bursting into scene to either be first teamers or solid squad players. Unfortunately the Glazers left an accountant on top. It would take us years before we realized that actually we need someone to have someone to help kids deal with the pressure when moving at top level football and we haven't fully implemented a structured system in where progression is carefully monitored, kids go into first team when they are ready and those who do not make the mark are sold for actual money.
 
devilish said:
Alot is being said about Pogba, Jesse and Rashy if they played under SAF. Here's my 2c


Pogba was one of SAF's rare mistakes ie he should have never mentioned him as a reason behind not investing in CM. As per usual SAF was defending the club but by doing so he placed a very ambitious and a very inpatient player under the spot light. That was a mistake.

Pogba didn't play with United for two reasons. First of all he wasn't yet ready. Sure he had all the technical and physical attributes to succeed but he lacked the maturity needed to make all of that work together effectively. Secondly its because SAF's last team couldn't sustain it. Carrick was growing old, Scholes was ancient and they needed grit rather then a fancy AM. Juventus were in a better position to cover for the latter (prime Vidal and a magnificent Pirlo) and they couldn't be arsed about the former. The end result is the mess we see at present ie a 31 year old player with the football maturity of a 17 year old. FFS the likes of Giggs, Maldini and Baresi had ten times the football maturity at age 17 then Pogba has at 31.

Regarding Lingard and Rashy I am 100% sure that they would have featured in SAF's team. They were both young, eager, talented and could play in multiple roles. That's a no brainer for SAF who always boosted the squad with academy players so he could spend the dosh on top talent. I dare to say that under SAF's guidance at least 1 if not both would have ended WC players. SAF wouldn't have pushed them ahead of their time as a desperate LVG did with Rashy and he would have made sure to keep them as far away from the spot light as humanely possible. The two would also have had the time to develop their skills and Rashford would be a far better player then this inside forward whose over reliant on pace. Things are different with the likes of Sancho though. Hell would freeze before SAF would buy him up

SAF's retirement costed us a second SAF's babes with Lingard (squad player but Oshea style), Rashy (first teamer), Greenwood (first teamer), McTominay (he who would be further developed and he'd be squad/first teamer level), Welbeck (squad player), Januzaj (who we foolishly saddled him with Ryan Giggs former shirt btw - he'd be squad/first teamer) and Garnacho bursting into scene to either be first teamers or solid squad players. Unfortunately the Glazers left an accountant on top. It would take us years before we realized that actually we need someone to have someone to help kids deal with the pressure when moving at top level football and we haven't fully implemented a structured system in where progression is carefully monitored, kids go into first team when they are ready and those who do not make the mark are sold for actual money.
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Carrick featured heavily for five more seasons after Pogba left. His age wasn't a concern. We also had Fletcher (who we didn't know would be crippled by illness), as well as Anderson and Cleverley that we hoped would come good. Jones was also being used as a midfielder on occasion back then too. Pogba was and is immature, and wanted a far bigger role in the team than he warranted at that time (and frankly ever warranted, in my opinion).

The problem with Lingard, Rashford and all of the other academy graduates you've mentioned (with the exception of Welbeck) is that they were fast-tracked into the team far too quickly and given a status (and often a contract) that their ability didn't actually command. I don't think Lingard and McTominay ever had the ability to be starters, but I agree that they could have ended up as O'Shea-types that were part of the squad making a decent number of appearances for a few years. Januzaj, Rashford, Greenwood and Garnacho would have simply been introduced far more slowly, and none would have ended up with the contracts they were given at the time they were.

Even the likes of Dean Henderson and Brandon Williams would have been handled better.

I'm not sure Welbeck would would have lasted. I think he wanted to try and cement a starting spot, and don't think he'd have ever had that under Fergie, although I think his departure would have been less controversial, for lack of a better word. He certainly wouldn't have been frozen out in the way van Gaal did.
 
Alex99 said:
Carrick featured heavily for five more seasons after Pogba left. His age wasn't a concern. We also had Fletcher (who we didn't know would be crippled by illness), as well as Anderson and Cleverley that we hoped would come good. Jones was also being used as a midfielder on occasion back then too. Pogba was and is immature, and wanted a far bigger role in the team than he warranted at that time (and frankly ever warranted, in my opinion).

The problem with Lingard, Rashford and all of the other academy graduates you've mentioned (with the exception of Welbeck) is that they were fast-tracked into the team far too quickly and given a status (and often a contract) that their ability didn't actually command. I don't think Lingard and McTominay ever had the ability to be starters, but I agree that they could have ended up as O'Shea-types that were part of the squad making a decent number of appearances for a few years. Januzaj, Rashford, Greenwood and Garnacho would have simply been introduced far more slowly, and none would have ended up with the contracts they were given at the time they were.

Even the likes of Dean Henderson and Brandon Williams would have been handled better.

I'm not sure Welbeck would would have lasted. I think he wanted to try and cement a starting spot, and don't think he'd have ever had that under Fergie, although I think his departure would have been less controversial, for lack of a better word. He certainly wouldn't have been frozen out in the way van Gaal did.
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Carrick was 31 by the time SAF retired. I am not suggesting that he was finished in any shape or form but he needed someone to share the burden especially since his other partner in CM was an ancient Paul Scholes. Thus we needed leg work something Cleverley could provide but people like Ando, Fletcher (who was ill) and Pogba couldn't or didn't provide. My point is that there was very valid reason why Pogba wasn't playing and it wasn't because of Mino Raiola, Pogba's hair or the other BS surrounding it. It was all about tactical balance, something SAF was obsessed with for very good reason as it was the cornerstone of his success. For example the moment he started playing Ronaldo regularly he made sure he'd have enough work horses in to compensate (Tevez, Rooney, Park etc). It's a shame that we haven't learnt that lesson till this very day. I mean Casemiro-Bruno or Casemiro-Eriksen in CM.....Seriously?

I agree on the rest.
 
devilish said:
Carrick was 31 by the time SAF retired. I am not suggesting that he was finished in any shape or form but he needed someone to share the burden especially since his other partner in CM was an ancient Paul Scholes. Thus we needed leg work something Cleverley could provide but people like Ando, Fletcher (who was ill) and Pogba couldn't or didn't provide. SAF was obsessed with balance. For example the moment he started playing Ronaldo regularly he made sure he'd have enough work horses in to compensate (Tevez, Rooney, Park etc). It's a shame that we haven't learnt that lesson till this very day. I mean Casemiro-Bruno or Casemiro-Eriksen in CM.....Seriously?

I agree on the rest.
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If we're going by when Fergie retired, I fully maintain that we were due to sign Herrera (and possibly one other midfielder, maybe Thiago) in the summer of 2013, as well as a left-back (possibly literally Shaw). I don't think it's a coincidence that Moyes spent all summer targeting Fellaini and Baines and tried to switch to Coentrao late on (a midfielder and a left-back), that we had that debacle with "representatives" showing up to do a deal for Herrera in the summer of 2013, and that we ended up signing both Herrera and Shaw in the summer of 2014 before we'd actually appointed van Gaal.

The timing was just wrong with Pogba, and I think it's forgotten how weak Serie A was when he went there. Juventus won the league with 102 points in his second season, with them winning 33 of 38 league games, but they ended up eliminated from a CL group containing Galatasaray and Copenhagen with just one win. I think there's a reasonable chance that Pogba never made it under Fergie even if we had a workhorse to accompany Carrick and even if Fergie had stayed on another couple of seasons.
 
Glorio said:
I don't think that's true that he would definitely have been good at defending if he wanted to be. Perhaps better than he was but defending in itself is a skill and requires a lot of natural talent. He wasn't that type of player.

It's like saying Zidane could have been good at defending, or Totti or Nedved.

I just feel because of his size and physique, he got type-cast.
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I'm aware, and that's my point I think Pogba had so much talent that he could have been good in virtually any position if he wanted to and applied himself.

Glorio said:
That said, I think it's obvious Pogba didn't have much discipline in his play at all.
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He didn't no.
 
devilish said:
Alot is being said about Pogba, Jesse and Rashy if they played under SAF. Here's my 2c


Pogba was one of SAF's rare mistakes ie he should have never mentioned him as a reason behind not investing in CM. As per usual SAF was defending the club but by doing so he placed a very ambitious and a very inpatient player under the spot light. That was a mistake.

Pogba didn't play with United for two reasons. First of all he wasn't yet ready. Sure he had all the technical and physical attributes to succeed but he lacked the maturity needed to make all of that work together effectively. Secondly its because SAF's last team couldn't sustain it. Carrick was growing old, Scholes was ancient and they needed grit rather then a fancy AM. Juventus were in a better position to cover for the latter (prime Vidal and a magnificent Pirlo) and they couldn't be arsed about the former. The end result is the mess we see at present ie a 31 year old player with the football maturity of a 17 year old. FFS the likes of Giggs, Maldini and Baresi had ten times the football maturity at age 17 then Pogba has at 31.

Regarding Lingard and Rashy I am 100% sure that they would have featured in SAF's team. They were both young, eager, talented and could play in multiple roles. That's a no brainer for SAF who always boosted the squad with academy players so he could spend the dosh on top talent. I dare to say that under SAF's guidance at least 1 if not both would have ended WC players. SAF wouldn't have pushed them ahead of their time as a desperate LVG did with Rashy and he would have made sure to keep them as far away from the spot light as humanely possible. The two would also have had the time to develop their skills and Rashford would be a far better player then this inside forward whose over reliant on pace. Things are different with the likes of Sancho though. Hell would freeze before SAF would buy him up

SAF's retirement costed us a second SAF's babes with Lingard (squad player but Oshea style), Rashy (first teamer), Greenwood (first teamer), McTominay (he who would be further developed and he'd be squad/first teamer level), Welbeck (squad player), Januzaj (who we foolishly saddled him with Ryan Giggs former shirt btw - he'd be squad/first teamer) and Garnacho bursting into scene to either be first teamers or solid squad players. Unfortunately the Glazers left an accountant on top. It would take us years before we realized that actually we need someone to have someone to help kids deal with the pressure when moving at top level football and we haven't fully implemented a structured system in where progression is carefully monitored, kids go into first team when they are ready and those who do not make the mark are sold for actual money.
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I dont agree with everything you`ve written but a lot of it. Very good post taking time to outline reasons. I especially like your takes on Jesse and Marcus. Jesse never let United down on the pitch as far as I`m concerned. He always busted his guts and wanted to be involved.

He`s gotten slagged off by some for being cocky and whatever but that self belief translated into him not being over-awed by any occasion though he had a very dry spell during one of the frequent difficult periods United have been through for years now. I personally think Louis Van Gaal should never have been sacked because the Moyes sacking should have been the starting point for stability, not for starting a managerial musical chairs. It`s a significant reason for today`s Manchester United.

Louis put structure ahead of attacking, exciting football but that would have come with patience from the directors and fans. However, he did put Marcus under too much pressure because as we know now, Marcus is much more of an inconsistent player than thought and could have done with being held back for his development`s sake. He`s tended to drop his head when the chips are down whereas I didn`t see that with Jesse. He might have had some unproductive games but he always kept pushing on the field.
 
ryansgirl said:
I dont agree with everything you`ve written but a lot of it. Very good post taking time to outline reasons. I especially like your takes on Jesse and Marcus. Jesse never let United down on the pitch as far as I`m concerned. He always busted his guts and wanted to be involved.

He`s gotten slagged off by some for being cocky and whatever but that self belief translated into him not being over-awed by any occasion though he had a very dry spell during one of the frequent difficult periods United have been through for years now. I personally think Louis Van Gaal should never have been sacked because the Moyes sacking should have been the starting point for stability, not for starting a managerial musical chairs. It`s a significant reason for today`s Manchester United.

Louis put structure ahead of attacking, exciting football but that would have come with patience from the directors and fans. However, he did put Marcus under too much pressure because as we know now, Marcus is much more of an inconsistent player than thought and coulI ad have done with being held back for his development`s sake. He`s tended to drop his head when the chips are down whereas I didn`t see that with Jesse. He might have had some unproductive games but he always kept pushing on the field.
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I actually met Jesse Lingard and Paul Pogba in October 2009 when they played Hibs U18 in October. Sir Alex divided the kids in sections and fans were told to sit down near them and ask any questions they liked. When warned that Maltese people can be a bit too direct (imagine an army of devilish) he actually encouraged that because he knew that our hearts were at the right place and none of us would go as low and as tough on kids as sports journalists would do. In my opinion, Pogba came across as too ambitious for his own good. He wanted to run long before he could walk which is why he left so early. Lingard on the other hand came across as a good lad. He was the only player to celebrate the goals with the fans and he was the only person to come back and clap at the crowd when the game ended.

SAF connection with Malta is well renowned and we had been lucky to have him around for so many years with so many players. Some fans had been around Gaz, Beckham and Giggs prior to them becoming the players we know. We've seen how he interacted with them and we heard stories from them about how nothing was left to chance how he would anticipate every problem and how he seemed to be in every room at every time. Giggs once said that if any player would dare organize an 'illegal' party then he was 100% sure that the first person to show up would be SAF.

The academy was central in SAF's plan because it provided him with talent free of charge which in turn allowed him to focus the funds on the players he wanted to buy that could make a difference. What post SAF United lacked was a proper leader and a proper structure that made sure that rotten apples are quickly removed, that young players are properly monitored during the transition between the academy phase and first team, that they only get their debut once they mentally mature and physically ready + their development will remain the main priority.

Pogba would have been a goner either way and with SAF he would have never returned. For the rest though I am 100% sure that if SAF was still around then we would have had a different Lingard, a different Rashford and a different Greenwood out there. They'll probably be playing with England, they'll be first teamers at United and would be better players/human beings than they are now. The club itself kind of admit it as well. Fletcher was one of the very few to survive the INEOS regime and the technical director role was further strengthened with the introduction of Jason Wilcox who was basically the Darren Fletcher version at Manchester City.
 
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