[Rado_N]

@Paul the Wolf as I said earlier, I've done all possible permutations of this discussion. I'm not getting drawn in again.

There's really no point trying to have a discussion with anyone who claims that people who like Lingard aren't United fans.

 

[stevoc]

He completed 87.9% of his passes this year, was only disposed .9 times per match, per WhoScored. WhoScored also notes his strengths are passing (especially short passes and through balls) and holding onto the ball. Perhaps he is not a great dribbler. That was an overstatement on my part. But I would say "good" is a fair statement. Statistically, he doesn't lose possession a lot.

Sure, Lingard is not a perfect player. Nobody said he was. But he is a good dribbler, he takes control of the ball, is good at hold-up play, plays with energy, etc.

Once he has the ball he doesn't lose possession a lot true. His passing stats are alright so are Fellaini's for similar reasons, i wasn't saying he loses possession through passing. He doesn't try too much risky passing so of course his pass completion % will be good. But he loses possession quite a lot when receiving the ball breaking down attacks. So i would still disagree that he is good at holding the ball up.

Also as i said he is a good dribbler at times but it's not a strength of his, if it was he would be able to dribble past fullbacks regularly. Taking fullbacks on and beating them is not a big feature of his game when he plays on the wing.

-He played on the attacking right midfield eleven times last season with an average rating of 6.93.
-He played as a right wing in the 4-3-3 seven times with an average rating of 6.65 (by far his lowest).
-He played as an attacking left midfielder three times with an average rating of 7.01 (his highest).
-He played as a left wing in the 4-3-3 two times with an average rating of 6.85.
-And he played once as a striker, with a rating of 6.58.

His season rating on the attacking right midfield wing was higher than Mkhitaryan and Marcus Rashford.

His season rating on the attacking left midfield wing was higher than Martial, Ashley Young, and tied with Rashford.

He is clearly worse in the 4-3-3. He gets worse the closer up the pitch he plays. He is good as an attacking midfield player in the 4-2-3-1, whether on the wing or up centrally, arguably better and more versatile than any of our other options.

I see literally zero evidence why he is worse as a winger than our other options in the 4-2-3-1, 4-2-2, or 3-5-2. He is not as dynamic of an offensive player, but he does the little things much better.

He doesn't have many attributes normally associated with wingers, he's not a great dribbler, he's not a great crosser of course you can still be an effective player from wide areas without those attributes in certain set-ups if you are still a productive player. But Jesse is not what i would consider a productive player he managed 5 goals and 3 assists last year from around 30 starts. From a similar amount of starts Martial 8/8 & Mkhy 11/5 and Mata 10/5 were all more productive despite none of them really setting the world alight.

Personally i don't base my opinions on how good players in certain positions on match ratings. I have no idea where those match ratings are from or what criteria they are based on.

I prefer to base my opinions on what i see and what i have seen of other players from watching football for the best part of 30 years. And based on that Lingard is not a winger, and certainly not a winger for a top club.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Average, but reliable, squad player who's somehow earning 100k a week. Baffling. We'll really struggle to offload him in 2-3yrs when the penny finally drops that he's a space-filler and little more.

I like him, though. I just think he needs severely limited first-team opportunities.

 

[VeevaVee]

I had a dream that him, Pogba, Lukaku and someone else were dabbing on the touchline constantly, while the game was going on behind them. 7/10 dream, 1/10 performance

 

[Nick7]

I had a dream that him, Pogba, Lukaku and someone else were dabbing on the touchline constantly, while the game was going on behind them. 7/10 dream, 1/10 performance

but did we win?

 

[VeevaVee]

but did we win?

Everyone in the crowd was pissed off so I'm guessing not. They kept doing it and laughing regardless

 

[Home&Away]

The 352 is going to happen sooner or later - it definitely isn't going missing and part of the 'philosophy' that will stay at the club for a long time. When that switch to the formation comes, a player like Lingard playing as a defensive attacking midfielder in certain games is going to be a key player- a player who doesn't try risky passes, a player who positions himself perfectly, a player who plays centrally and has the ability to join the forwards etc.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

There's really no point trying to have a discussion with anyone who claims that people who like Lingard aren't United fans.

I said they are more interested in Lingard playing than whether United does well because all the other options are clearly better than him.

The theme of the thread has become you cannot post in here unless you think Lingard is a fantastic player, he isn't and will never be and isn't good enough for the club. The amount of rubbish in here trying to justify his inclusion is beyond belief, just watch him play, it's obvious.
As I said I'll soon be out of here as soon as the season starts because we all know what's going to happen

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Why though? Martial and Mkhitaryan are far, far more productive than Lingard. You can argue, yes, that Lingard makes the most of his ability on a more consistent basis than those two but those two have far more ability and are more productive. They contribute more to the team even with their inconsistency than Lingard with his consistent mediocrity.

Let's turn it around, again: what did Lingard show to displace Martial and Mkhitaryan? Because he gets a similar amount of opportunities despite contributing significantly less.

I think that is honestly where alot of the frustration towards Lingard comes from. If Lingard was coming in and playing well, then no one would complain or be frustrated.

I'm just hoping that he takes his good pre-season form into the season and delivers in the Premier League where it matters.

 

[Rado_N]

I said they are more interested in Lingard playing than whether United does well because all the other options are clearly better than him.

What you said was:

If Lingard plays even half what he played last year, we are not winning the league.
Those of us who don't rate him want the team to do well whereas his admirers couldn't give a toss about the team as long as their poster boy plays.
The sooner he goes the better.

Which is, obviously, complete bollocks and the kind of arrogant shit they makes it pointless to discuss the topic with you.

The theme of the thread has become you cannot post in here unless you think Lingard is a fantastic player, he isn't and will never be and isn't good enough for the club. The amount of rubbish in here trying to justify his inclusion is beyond belief, just watch him play, it's obvious.
As I said I'll soon be out of here as soon as the season starts because we all know what's going to happen

Yea, no, it isn't.

This thread had 3 or 4 pages of hate before we'd even kicked a ball in pre season from you and the others who can't help yourselves from slagging him off all the time and repeating yourselves ad nauseam that you don't rate him.

That's the theme.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I said they are more interested in Lingard playing than whether United does well because all the other options are clearly better than him.

The theme of the thread has become you cannot post in here unless you think Lingard is a fantastic player, he isn't and will never be and isn't good enough for the club. The amount of rubbish in here trying to justify his inclusion is beyond belief, just watch him play, it's obvious.
As I said I'll soon be out of here as soon as the season starts because we all know what's going to happen

Doubt that and I totally disagree about our other superior options. Think the vast majority here would love for us to get a top quality winger. A Bale, Sanchez or Neymar would be the perfect player for us to sign. Overall our attack is not very great and we could need some top class quality to lift us.

This pre season I think Lingard has been our best attacker. He has looked sharp and at the moment I think we should probably play him in the supercup and against West Ham. Mata getting back into form may change that though we will see how he plays.

 

[Home&Away]

I think that is honestly where alot of the frustration towards Lingard comes from. If Lingard was coming in and playing well, then no one would complain or be frustrated.

I'm just hoping that he takes his good pre-season form into the season and delivers in the Premier League where it matters.

When martial and mkhitrayan are on form - it's as good as having an extra player on the pitch; the opposition have to target them.

However, A player like martial and mkhitarayn when they do not score, do not assist, go way more missing that Lingard does in my opinion. They lose presence in the team and it sometimes can feel like playing with 10 players instead of 11.

Now Lingard isn't as good as these players; but he doesn't lose or gain form in my opinion. He might not be a guaranteed goal scorer or assists maker but he doesn't go completely empty / missing from the field like some of the other players do. He still is able to link play, find right positions etc.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What you said was:



Which is, obviously, complete bollocks and the kind of arrogant shit they makes it pointless to discuss the topic with you.



Yea, no, it isn't.

This thread had 3 or 4 pages of hate before we'd even kicked a ball in pre season from you and the others who can't help yourselves from slagging him off all the time and repeating yourselves ad nauseam that you don't rate him.

That's the theme.

That's just what I said, why would one want Lingard to play when all the other options are better. Don't know what's arrogant about that.
I only came back again yesterday when the "admirers" started saying that he wasn't a regular starter - he is a regular starter as much as any of the others and the criticism is stirred up by the absolute rubbish that is spouted saying how wonderful he is for the team which is repeated ad nauseum.
Yes, so the theme is, he's so wonderful and don't dare anyone say otherwise.

 

[stevoc]

The 352 is going to happen sooner or later - it definitely isn't going missing and part of the 'philosophy' that will stay at the club for a long time. When that switch to the formation comes, a player like Lingard playing as a defensive attacking midfielder in certain games is going to be a key player- a player who doesn't try risky passes, a player who positions himself perfectly, a player who plays centrally and has the ability to join the forwards etc.

I honestly don't ever see us switching to 352, certainly not under Mourinho anyway.

 

[devips]

Let this thread be re-named - Why I obsessively hate Lingard! - a kind of therapeutic device for those who need it. Meanwhile, Lingard will continue to earn his 100k per week, be in Manager's trust, and see more first team action than Martial and Mkhi, Ha Ha!

 

[Rado_N]

That's just what I said, why would one want Lingard to play when all the other options are better. Don't know what's arrogant about that.
I only came back again yesterday when the "admirers" started saying that he wasn't a regular starter - he is a regular starter as much as any of the others and the criticism is stirred up by the absolute rubbish that is spouted saying how wonderful he is for the team which is repeated ad nauseum.
Yes, so the theme is, he's so wonderful and don't dare anyone say otherwise.

OK mate.

 

[Mr Smith]

The 352 is going to happen sooner or later - it definitely isn't going missing and part of the 'philosophy' that will stay at the club for a long time. When that switch to the formation comes, a player like Lingard playing as a defensive attacking midfielder in certain games is going to be a key player- a player who doesn't try risky passes, a player who positions himself perfectly, a player who plays centrally and has the ability to join the forwards etc.

You are straight-up wrong to think that playing 3-5-2 now or at any point in the future has anything at all to do with Van Gaal's philosophy, or the fact that he used it two years ago. He didn't invent it for goodness sake. Three at the back completely changes the shape of your side and allows you to play to different strengths; and its new in the premier league, which is why more teams are shifting towards it. If it is used this season, it will be for tactical reasons, and nothing else.

 

[manutd7]

I've been happy with his performances this year. Its more of the same with Lingard tho, which is why I prefer Martial Mata and Mkhitaryan. With Lingard its a lot of movement and small passes that dont equate to much end product. I think he had only a couple goals last year while playing some twenty games? Thats nowhere near what should be expected. Im not sure what JM sees in him besides coming from the academy and his work ethic.

Breaking it down:
Mkhitaryan- Is better in front of goal and a better passer. Has a better footballing brain in terms of technique, quality and flair. Close to the same speed
Martial- Is better dribbler and much faster. Can be isolated and make things happen(probably the only attacker that is very successful at this). Similar goal scoring abilites, but I think that is due to Martial's age and game time
Mata- Much better creator, passer and goalscorer. Has a better touch and vision. Speed and maybe defensive ability are the only things against him
Rashford- Similar to Martial skill set, but I feel he will be used farther forward and wont compete for game time on the wings as much as the others

I dont dislike seeing him on the team sheet as I feel he does offer some good attributes to the team, but I would prefer the others more often than not.
Still so much better than Fellaini in the team.

 

[Siorac]

That's just what I said, why would one want Lingard to play when all the other options are better. Don't know what's arrogant about that.
I only came back again yesterday when the "admirers" started saying that he wasn't a regular starter - he is a regular starter as much as any of the others and the criticism is stirred up by the absolute rubbish that is spouted saying how wonderful he is for the team which is repeated ad nauseum.
Yes, so the theme is, he's so wonderful and don't dare anyone say otherwise.

I think this whole debate about narratives is a classic case of confirmation bias, observable everywhere on the Caf.

Optimists will say the Caf is full of unbearable doom and gloom; as a pessimistic person who expects another underwhelming league campaign I feel like the forum is full of deluded optimism. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as always; of course the posts we strongly disagree with are going to "stick" more, they will stand out because of the not inconsiderable annoyance factor.

 

[Home&Away]

You are straight-up wrong to think that playing 3-5-2 now or at any point in the future has anything at all to do with Van Gaal's philosophy, or the fact that he used it two years ago. He didn't invent it for goodness sake. Three at the back completely changes the shape of your side and allows you to play to different strengths; and its new in the premier league, which is why more teams are shifting towards it. If it is used this season, it will be for tactical reasons, and nothing else.

Did I say he invented it? No. I had this conversation with someone else who believe that us trying out the 352 is purely and only down to Chelsea - when people consistently talk about our squad fitting the 352 better than the 4231. If you believe that one of our past managers didn't influence that - you are just as biased as I can be.

 

[botond]

Let this thread be re-named - Why I obsessively hate Lingard! - a kind of therapeutic device for those who need it. Meanwhile, Lingard will continue to earn his 100k per week, be in Manager's trust, and see more first team action than Martial and Mkhi, Ha Ha!

and we finish 5th in the league , Ha Ha

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

That's just what I said, why would one want Lingard to play when all the other options are better. Don't know what's arrogant about that.
I only came back again yesterday when the "admirers" started saying that he wasn't a regular starter - he is a regular starter as much as any of the others and the criticism is stirred up by the absolute rubbish that is spouted saying how wonderful he is for the team which is repeated ad nauseum.
Yes, so the theme is, he's so wonderful and don't dare anyone say otherwise.

I think the big difference is that many don't think the other options we have is better. It is your opinion and views. Mourinho and many here don't share them.

Right now it is quite clear that we have no standout offensive midfielders. We rotate them and try to pick the one best for the current games.

 

[Mr Smith]

Did I say he invented it? No. I had this conversation with someone else who believe that us trying out the 352 is purely and only down to Chelsea - when people consistently talk about our squad fitting the 352 better than the 4231. If you believe that one of our past managers didn't influence that - you are just as biased as I can be.

I'm not being biased, I'm being logical. One 3-5-2 is not the same as another 3-5-2, and Mourinho's football is completely different from Van Gaal's football. The only way the two are linked in any way is that some of our defenders have experience playing in a back three from Van Gaal's days. Other than that you're talking about two significantly different systems and two completely different styles.

 

[Siorac]

Did I say he invented it? No. I had this conversation with someone else who believe that us trying out the 352 is purely and only down to Chelsea - when people consistently talk about our squad fitting the 352 better than the 4231. If you believe that one of our past managers didn't influence that - you are just as biased as I can be.

I'm not sure why anyone says that though: we have very few options in central midfield and we have three strikers, one of which is Martial who's probably better on the left. We have a shitton of players who are at their best as a no. 10, a position that doesn't really exist in 3-5-2; we have one wingback who can be reasonably expected to provide width in attack. Well, two, if you're one of those who still expect Shaw to come good but that's more hope than reasonable expectation at this point.

Literally the only reason 3-5-2 would fit us is because we have a lot of players who can play CB.

 

[Home&Away]

I'm not being biased, I'm being logical. One 3-5-2 is not the same as another 3-5-2, and Mourinho's football is completely different from Van Gaal's football. The only way the two are linked in any way is that some of our defenders have experience playing in a back three from Van Gaal's days. Other than that you're talking about two significantly different systems and two completely different styles.

The formation is the same - the tactics are different, I am not trying to prove any different.

I'm not sure why anyone says that though: we have very few options in central midfield and we have three strikers, one of which is Martial who's probably better on the left. We have a shitton of players who are at their best as a no. 10, a position that doesn't really exist in 3-5-2; we have one wingback who can be reasonably expected to provide width in attack. Well, two, if you're one of those who still expect Shaw to come good but that's more hope than reasonable expectation at this point.

Literally the only reason 3-5-2 would fit us is because we have a lot of players who can play CB.

You underestimate the presence of valencia at RWB. There is a defined central attacking midfield position in the 352 since we would have a an extra CB that can guard the midfield ( without buying anyone like dier we have TFM, Blind and even lindelpf once he settles) - this frees up ppgba and herrera much more, gives us consistent crosses to our forwards. Martial has proven in his first season that he is better centrally than out wide where he is p*ss easy to defend against.

Anyway - no point in discussing this here in lingards thread; will discuss it in a more suitable one.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Let this thread be re-named - Why I obsessively hate Lingard! - a kind of therapeutic device for those who need it. Meanwhile, Lingard will continue to earn his 100k per week, be in Manager's trust, and see more first team action than Martial and Mkhi, Ha Ha!

What a constructive post.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I think the big difference is that many don't think the other options we have is better. It is your opinion and views. Mourinho and many here don't share them.

Right now it is quite clear that we have no standout offensive midfielders. We rotate them and try to pick the one best for the current games.

We are all entitled to our opinion, although some of our opinions are trying to be suppressed.
No-one has consistently played well but Lingard has consistently played worse than the others.

The biggest gripe is that Lingard gets far more chances when he doesn't play well than all the others, one poor game for the others and they're out of the team, this is not the case with Lingard.
Rashford and Martial are much younger and will be more inconsistent but they need their confidence boosting, Mourinho backs Rashford more but both have immense potential.

 

[Viral United]

I don't understand people saying the issue is mhiki and martial failing to wrestle playing time away from lingard as this seems to shoot the 'he's a good squad player' defence.

Good squad players are supposed to step up,contribute, make you forget that the big names aren't shining. The issue is I haven't seen that from Lingard, so does he still deserve that title? To reiterate, our level of squad player should be 14 goals son, willian, sterling,coman, asensio. In fact, I'd argue mata is the ultimate level of squad player we need.

If squad player are that much good, they will find a club to become starter.

 

[Viral United]

We are all entitled to our opinion, although some of our opinions are trying to be suppressed.
No-one has consistently played well but Lingard has consistently played worse than the others.

The biggest gripe is that Lingard gets far more chances when he doesn't play well than all the others, one poor game for the others and they're out of the team, this is not the case with Lingard.
Rashford and Martial are much younger and will be more inconsistent but they need their confidence boosting, Mourinho backs Rashford more but both have immense potential.

And what you think the reason is?
Surely there is something not right otherwise why Jose back one player and not back another?

 

[luke511]

Lingard is a first team starter for us at the moment, not a squad player, so stop putting him under that category. If he was getting 20 appearances a season it'd be a lot easier for us haters to swallow, but he's getting as much as Mata, Martial, and Mkhitaryan. Are the people that favour him okay with him being our first choice right winger for this season?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And what you think the reason is?
Surely there is something not right otherwise why Jose back one player and not back another?

Yes, something is not right, Martial seems quiet and a bit sulky which is a trait maybe Jose doesn't like but it is down to man-management to get the best out of the players if the potential and ability is there.

 

[devips]

What a constructive post.

Yep, just like the other 'constructive' posts that I see on this thread.

 

[devips]

and we finish 5th in the league , Ha Ha

Right. Look at the guy's ability. He single-handedly (or footedly!) prevented the other 10 players from winning PL/CL! He deserves those 100k!

 

[Viral United]

Yes, something is not right, Martial seems quiet and a bit sulky which is a trait maybe Jose doesn't like but it is down to man-management to get the best out of the players if the potential and ability is there.

And that may be the point, For Jose Martial and in some case Mikhi is not ready for job he was asking.
You can not get best out of every player you manage, something player need more than potential to become good player.
It might also possible Jose trying to sort out Martial situation and in meantime happy with Lingard.

We all know Lingard should be use as squad player but if he get starting place, he must be doing something right which Martial and co. cant able to do.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Yep, just like the other 'constructive' posts that I see on this thread.

Everyone else at least adds their own opinions and facts into the conversation, whether they believe in Lingard or not. Not just stupid sarky remarks that make you look like an idiot.

 

[devips]

Everyone else at least adds their own opinions and facts into the conversation, whether they believe in Lingard or not. Not just stupid sarky remarks that make you look like an idiot.

Maybe idiotic 'opinions and facts' delivered ad nauseum invite similar responses!

 

[botond]

Right. Look at the guy's ability. He single-handedly (or footedly!) prevented the other 10 players from winning PL/CL! He deserves those 100k!

nah , its a team effort . or do you reckon hes the only average player in our squad ?

 

[devips]

And that may be the point, For Jose Martial and in some case Mikhi is not ready for job he was asking.
You can not get best out of every player you manage, something player need more than potential to become good player.
It might also possible Jose trying to sort out Martial situation and in meantime happy with Lingard.

We all know Lingard should be use as squad player but if he get starting place, he must be doing something right which Martial and co. cant able to do.

Good post. Nobody here is saying Lingard is a world-beater. He is starting most matches because players like Martial have not been playing upto their potential. And he gives his hundred percent in every game unlike those other players. But the obsessive haters will just carry on with their vitriol. Mourinho, fortunately, doesn't read Redcafe!

 

[villain]

This thread is a car crash

 

[jking948]

Once he has the ball he doesn't lose possession a lot true. His passing stats are alright so are Fellaini's for similar reasons, i wasn't saying he loses possession through passing. He doesn't try too much risky passing so of course his pass completion % will be good.

So I want to point something out here. Both Lingard's and Martial's average pass distance this past season was 13 meters. Martial had an 82% completion rate and Lingard an 88%. In that sense, Lingard is absolutely a better passer than Martial. Mkhitaryan averaged 15 meters on 84% completion rate, which statistically, is about even to Lingard. The best creative wing is obviously Mata, who averaged 16 meters on an 89% completion rate. Point being, I don't think it is fair to say that "Lingard's passes are short, so let's discount it (I do not think you are saying this, but, I have seen it before in this thread)."

But he loses possession quite a lot when receiving the ball breaking down attacks. So i would still disagree that he is good at holding the ball up.

Do you mean while dribbling? Because again, he turns the ball over less than one time per 90 minutes via dribbling.

Or do you mean in the air? Because if you mean in the air, then I agree, this is a huge weakness. He is arguably the worst player in our regular squad in the air.

If neither, could you please clarify?

Also as i said he is a good dribbler at times but it's not a strength of his, if it was he would be able to dribble past fullbacks regularly. Taking fullbacks on and beating them is not a big feature of his game when he plays on the wing.

Perhaps our definition of "good" is different. My take is that he does not turn the ball over, he can advance the ball, and excels at hold-up. That's all the dribbling that is being asked of him. Now, if the purpose behind dribbling is to score, then I agree, Lingard is weak here.

He doesn't have many attributes normally associated with wingers, he's not a great dribbler, he's not a great crosser of course you can still be an effective player from wide areas without those attributes in certain set-ups if you are still a productive player. But Jesse is not what i would consider a productive player he managed 5 goals and 3 assists last year from around 30 starts. From a similar amount of starts Martial 8/8 & Mkhy 11/5 and Mata 10/5 were all more productive despite none of them really setting the world alight.

Is the way we are measuring productivity solely based on goals and assists? Because, from an attacking midfield wing, I think there is a lot more they are asked to do. If we are talking about a wing in the 433, then I agree, Lingard is a very poor fit. But he is good in a 4231, excels in a 352, and I'd imagine he'd be solid in a 442.

Also, I do desire a more creative wing player that will improve our attack. Further, I'd imagine that player would cut into Lingard's minutes pretty heavily. That's totally fine by me. I'm not some blind Lingard supporter. I just think that, outside of maybe Rashford and Mata, there is an argument to play him in front of our other options. Not always, but in many situations, he is the best bet for what Jose wants to do each match.

Personally i don't base my opinions on how good players in certain positions on match ratings. I have no idea where those match ratings are from or what criteria they are based on.

The WhoScored rating is a statistical regression based on aspects of team performance with how the player played on the pitch, and how the same team looked with a replacement-level player in their place. It's pretty solid, imo. Not a perfect analysis, of course, but it does point to general production. The problem is that you do not see exactly what causes that performance. So it is important to take with a grain of salt.

I prefer to base my opinions on what i see and what i have seen of other players from watching football for the best part of 30 years. And based on that Lingard is not a winger, and certainly not a winger for a top club.

So what happens when someone like me, who also has watched a lot of football (albeit not in person, just saw my first live ManUtd match on Wednesday!), comes along with a different analysis from the eye test? How do we evaluate? I am not saying stats are the ultimate measuring stick, as I hope it is clear, I have been using stats to substantiate what I see with my own eyes. But, I also do not think we should shun stats completely, as they seem to be a fairly impartial measuring tool when used correctly.