[All 3 United]

How was Lingard terrible?

He was excellent I thought... Particularly first half.

His movement was good and he did win the ball a couple of times, generally after losing it. It’s what he does on the ball that’s the issue. For a supposedly attacking player he offers no through balls, no dribbles not even a decent cross (especially when he takes corners) Just before the Sterling dive he was in acres of space and just had to play the most simple of balls into the box and he over hit it.
That said I thought Alli was even worse, constantly getting into good positions but then just messing up simple balls.
Anyway my point is and from a united perspective, we desperately need to improve on that right side of our attack and he’s nothing like good enough to be the main creator in the number 10 role.

 

[Lawman]

Actually, he started 30 games and it was 21 goals and assists.

http://www.espnfc.com/player/169136/jesse-lingard?season=2017

You are reading that wrong @Di Maria's angel I think you are quoting his sub appearances instead of his goals.

 

[breakout67]

I think that Lingard does not provide enough quality in the no.10 spot to be given a starting place. There are two qualities of a number 10; playmaking/dictating attacking moves and supporting the striker.

Some no.10s are more playmakers like Silva and Isco, with a good goal threat. While others are more support strikers with good playmaking like Griezmann and Dybala.

Lingard does not score enough goals to be at the level of Griezmann or Dybala, and he does not provide a creative spark like Silva or Isco. He is therefore not at the right level to play a key role in the team.

 

[T A]

Actually, he started 30 games and it was 21 goals and assists.

http://www.espnfc.com/player/169136/jesse-lingard?season=2017

Lingard had 7 goals and 2 assists in 23 starts based on your source

 

[Di Maria's angel]

You are reading that wrong @Di Maria's angel I think you are quoting his sub appearances instead of his goals.

Lingard had 7 goals and 2 assists in 23 starts based on your source

Well no. I checked to see how many games he's started and its 36 in all comps. The stats above, Redcafe, state that he has 13 goals and 8 assists this season.

 

[Lawman]

Well no. I checked to see how many games he's started and its 36 in all comps. The stats above, Redcafe, state that he has 13 goals and 8 assists this season.

Hold on I’m confused you stated 21 goals were you adding stats and goals together? No big deal easily done but he definitely hasn’t scored 21 goals in fact I’m not even sure he’s done that in his 3 seasons at United first team.

 

[Raoul]

I think that Lingard does not provide enough quality in the no.10 spot to be given a starting place. There are two qualities of a number 10; playmaking/dictating attacking moves and supporting the striker.

Some no.10s are more playmakers like Silva and Isco, with a good goal threat. While others are more support strikers with good playmaking like Griezmann and Dybala.

Lingard does not score enough goals to be at the level of Griezmann or Dybala, and he does not provide a creative spark like Silva or Isco. He is therefore not at the right level to play a key role in the team.

All of these players also play in different systems than we do, where attack is generally encouraged. That's just not how Jose sets things up here, so naturally all our players are going to look different to the ones you listed.

 

[breakout67]

All of these players also play in different systems than we do, where attack is generally encouraged. That's just not how Jose sets things up here, so naturally all our players are going to look different to the ones you listed.

Did you just ignore half my post or something? Griezmann plays in a more defensive system while Dybala plays in a similar system (even down to formation and personell).

If you think that Lingard is being held back from the level of those two players by the manager then I don't know what to say.

 

[Raoul]

Did you just ignore half my post or something? Griezmann plays in a more defensive system while Dybala plays in a similar system (even down to formation and personell).

If you think that Lingard is being held back from the level of those two players by the manager then I don't know what to say.

Maybe Atletico play similar to us but Lingard is obviously not Griezman and I don't think anyone is even comparing them as such. Juve on the other hand knocked in a hell of a lot more goals than us so its hard to compare Lingard to Dybala in any capacity.

 

[breakout67]

Maybe Atletico play similar to us but Lingard is obviously not Griezman and I don't think anyone is even comparing them as such. Juve on the other hand knocked in a hell of a lot more goals than us so its hard to compare Lingard to Dybala in any capacity.

Juventus use a physical striker as a focal point. They use two work horse midfielders to prevent teams from going through the middle. They use a low block to close out games.

A massive part of why Juventus score a hell of a lot more than us is because of Dybala (also that they are the strongest team in a weak league but that's not what we're discussing). He's a pretty good player, much better than Lingard no matter what the system.

 

[Raoul]

Juventus use a physical striker as a focal point. They use two work horse midfielders to prevent teams from going through the middle. They use a low block to close out games.

A massive part of why Juventus score a hell of a lot more than us is because of Dybala (also that they are the strongest team in a weak league but that's not what we're discussing). He's a pretty good player, much better than Lingard no matter what the system.

No one is arguing Dybala's quality here. Since he and Lingard play in completely different teams with different surrounding casts, setups, and tactics; its impossible to compare them with any degree of accuracy.

 

[breakout67]

No one is arguing Dybala's quality here. Since he and Lingard play in completely different teams with different surrounding casts, setups, and tactics; its impossible to compare them with any degree of accuracy.

I quite like the line of sophistry you've taken. When someone says Lingard needs to improve his playmaking or goalscoring like other top players in his position you bring up that.

You know when Lingard fails a basic through ball over and over? That's the surrounding cast, setups and tactics...

 

[Raoul]

I quite like the line of sophistry you've taken. When someone says Lingard needs to improve his playmaking or goalscoring like other top players in his position you bring up that.

You know when Lingard fails a basic through ball over and over? That's the surrounding cast, setups and tactics...

Funny enough he has - if you look at his numbers this year they are far better than in the past. Trouble is that his critics don't know what Jose is instructing him to do and thus don't have any leverage in comparing him to other players in other squads. The usual simpleton's argument about comparing two players in different teams, tactics, setups, instructions doesn't really work with any degree of satisfaction here.

 

[breakout67]

Funny enough he has - if you look at his numbers this year they are far better than in the past. Trouble is that his critics don't know what Jose is instructing him to do and thus don't have any leverage in comparing him to other players in other squads. The usual simpleton's argument about two players in different teams, tactics, setups, instructions doesn't really work with any degree of satisfaction here.

Misfired again. The manager started with Mkhitaryan in Lingard's place, played Mkhitaryan way longer than expected and finally gave Lingard a starting place. He had a good 2-3 months and then was moved out of position again to accommodate Pogba in a midfield 3.

The manager considers him a squad player, not good enough to build the team around. Which is exacty what I've said about him. If we play with a no.10 for most of next season, it won't be Lingard. That has nothing to do with me rating him, it's what the manager has shown with his selection over and over again.

Lingard is the player that comes in when other players under perform or as a way to change the shape of team. A valuable squad player that gives his all and is a good player. He has improved this season, still not good enough to play every game (look at his appearances for proof of this).

 

[Raoul]

Misfired again. The manager started with Mkhitaryan in Lingard's place, played Mkhitaryan way longer than expected and finally gave Lingard a starting place. He had a good 2-3 months and then was moved out of position again to accommodate Pogba in a midfield 3.

The manager considers him a squad player, not good enough to build the team around. Which is exacty what I've said about him. If we play with a no.10 for most of next season, it won't be Lingard. That has nothing to do with me rating him, it's what the manager has shown with his selection over and over again.

Lingard is the player that comes in when other players under perform or as a way to change the shape of team. A valuable squad player that gives his all and is a good player. He has improved this season, still not good enough to play every game (look at his appearances for proof of this).

No one is arguing that he is any more than a quality squad player. If Mourinho didn't rate him he wouldn't have played him at all and we would've seen more lineup shuffling with the likes of Mata and others. The central question in the past few pages has been whether or not he's good enough to be a United player and Jose, by giving Jesse nearly 50 appearances, has answered that this year with resounding yes.

 

[breakout67]

No one is arguing that he is any more than a quality squad player. If Mourinho didn't rate him he wouldn't have played him at all and we would've seen more lineup shuffling with the likes of Mata and others. The central question in the past few pages has been whether or not he's good enough to be a United player and Jose, by giving Jesse nearly 50 appearances, has answered that his year with resounding yes.

What does this have to do with our conversation? I wasn't aware that there was a central question to this thread and I had to stick to it?

My point was that if Lingard wants to be one of our key players he has to improve his playmaking and/or goalscoring. Otherwise he will stay as a squad player.

You then went on some weird tangent about how its not fair on Lingard because we're a defensive team or something.

 

[Raoul]

What does this have to do with our conversation? I wasn't aware that there was a central question to this thread and I had to stick to it?

My point was that if Lingard wants to be one of our key players he has to improve his playmaking and/or goalscoring. Otherwise he will stay as a squad player.

You then went on some weird tangent about how its not fair on Lingard because we're a defensive team or something.

Your contribution to this thread is ancillary to the more mainstream debate about whether Lingard is good enough to be a United player, as advanced by the likes of Lawman and others.

 

[breakout67]

Your contribution to this thread is ancillary to the more mainstream debate about whether Lingard is good enough to be a United player, as advanced by the likes of Lawman and others.

I have said many times that Lingard is good enough to be at United. Did you not see me defend him by bringing up that he doesn't lose the ball often when someone said he did?

Did you think I expected him to be one of the best playmakers in the world just to get into the squad?

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Hold on I’m confused you stated 21 goals were you adding stats and goals together? No big deal easily done but he definitely hasn’t scored 21 goals in fact I’m not even sure he’s done that in his 3 seasons at United first team.

I don't think I stated anywhere he had 21 goals. If so, I meant goals and assists.

 

[Ubermensch]

Or Lingard this season?

if you think Lingard's numbers are equal to prime muller or dele in his first two seasons then I understand now why our squad is full of meh players.

You don't rate Zidane?

Embarrassing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

if you think Lingard's numbers are equal to prime muller or dele in his first two seasons then I understand now why our squad is full of meh players.

Embarrassing.

That’s a hell of a straw man.

 

[Ubermensch]

My original point was that muller and alli, unlike Lingard, have exceptional numbers backing up their movement and you then inferred he is in that class. He objectively isn't. If your point was that his numbers are good enough independent of these two then...

I think that Lingard does not provide enough quality in the no.10 spot to be given a starting place. There are two qualities of a number 10; playmaking/dictating attacking moves and supporting the striker.

Some no.10s are more playmakers like Silva and Isco, with a good goal threat. While others are more support strikers with good playmaking like Griezmann and Dybala.

Lingard does not score enough goals to be at the level of Griezmann or Dybala, and he does not provide a creative spark like Silva or Isco. He is therefore not at the right level to play a key role in the team.

 

[haram]

His drop in performances from those couple of months seem more in line with his career to date rather than just being a change of position. If you are talking just goals and assists then I’d agree with you but we are not are we? A bit like Alli this season if you judge him on goals and assists great but actually performances are not great. If you’re talking or thinking about him being our 10 then I’d expect them to have a bigger impact than just goals and assists. Jesse doesn’t do this nearly enough often being non existent in games and if his goal return goes back to normal (that’s his career to date 1 goal in every 7/8 games) then what do we have?

He has barely played at number 10 for us before this season though...

 

[ivaldo]

if you think Lingard's numbers are equal to prime muller or dele in his first two seasons then I understand now why our squad is full of meh players.

How did you even arrive at this statement?

 

[TheFlagStaysDown]

But the thing is he is creeping more towards a starter than a squad player in appearances this season.
Plus he only dipped because others dipped? This is where I’m looking for our players to step up when others dipped not excusing them. Also are you applying the logic Jesse was as good as the likes of Matic in the first half of the season? When in fact it was more of a two month purple patch then he resumed normal output?
Pogba has what’s deemed a poor season (by many on here and in the press) yet he was as productive as Jesse and plays in a deeper position, he also influences our play more in the 90 minutes. Is it expectations as a Pogba was £89m and Jesse from the academy? As if we are looking to win things we need to start judging our 11 equally. Yeah no doubt we cannot have a squad full of £89m players I get that so I fully agree but our 11 is going to be stacked with quality to win this league and having Jesse as a regular in the 11 in my opinion is he’s not got the quality (he’s in his mid twenties now) but as a squad player fine.

I dont think I would disagree in your last paragraph, we all know that ideally, if we want to get to the very top level - the elite champions league winning team we need to upgrade on our first 11 and Lingard should be a squad palyer, however if he hits the top form and is played in his position behind the striker, I dont mind him to start even important games. Let's see how he starts the next season and how he plays for the national team. I just wanted to defend him a bit because again he's just been unfairly criticised for some reason. He stepped up his game this season and had some absolute great games, played to his potential even though was a bit inconsistent, however Martial and Rashford whose potential is to be expected higher underperformed this year and dint played to their potential. Those are potentially starters but didnt have a better season than Lingard which is a shame.. so I'd be only positive about Jesse who also played as a RW is like Smalling played as a RB

 

[limerickcitykid]

if you think Lingard's numbers are equal to prime muller or dele in his first two seasons then I understand now why our squad is full of meh players.

Jesse's numbers are better than Dele's numbers in his first season though.

 

[breakout67]

My original point was that muller and alli, unlike Lingard, have exceptional numbers backing up their movement and you then inferred he is in that class. He objectively isn't. If your point was that his numbers are good enough independent of these two then...

You quoted the wrong post

I never talked about those players.

 

[Ubermensch]

How did you even arrive at this statement?

I was talking about alli and muller's numbers. He brings up lingard. You do the rest. If he was saying that Lingard's numbers are good enough then I counterargued that in my follow up.

Jesse's numbers are better than Dele's numbers in his first season though.

alli got 10 goals in the prem first season, second 18. Lingard has 8 in this campaign. Then you have to remember the fact that that was alli's first prem season and he was what, 19? This is my last post so I'm gonna quote this guy again because he clarifies my position better than I can: Edit: I don't think it is letting me quote. Breakout67 up above put it best for me.

 

[limerickcitykid]

alli got 10 goals in the prem first season, second 18. Lingard has 8 in this campaign. Then you have to remember the fact that that was alli's first prem season and he was what, 19? This is my last post so I'm gonna quote this guy again because he clarifies my position better than I can:

Alli's first season he got a goal or assist in all comps roughly every 153.5 mins with Lingard this season 132.5. The numbers are literally better.

 

[ivaldo]

I was talking about alli and muller's numbers. He brings up lingard. You do the rest. If he was saying that Lingard's numbers are good enough then I counterargued that in my follow up.

He brings up Lingard? It's a Lingard thread, chances are he's going to be brought up.

If we look at per 90 instead of totals, we actually get a fairer reflection on performances this season in the league. Lingard ended up with more assists per 90 than Hazard, and more goals per 90 than Alli (significantly more so) and Eriksen. This while often being moved out of his favoured position to accommodate others, and playing in a team that failed to function as an attacking force at the end of the season.

So yeah, shit counterargument really, mate.

 

[Ubermensch]

He brings up Lingard? It's a Lingard thread, chances are he's going to be brought up.

If we look at per 90 instead of totals, we actually get a fairer reflection on performances this season in the league. Lingard ended up with more assists per 90 than Hazard, and more goals per 90 than Alli (significantly more so) and Eriksen. This while often being moved out of his favoured position to accommodate others, and playing in a team that failed to function as an attacking force at the end of the season.

So yeah, shit counterargument really, mate.

Look at the context he brings lingard up in in relation to my point. Hazard has been out assisted and outscored by quite a few centrebacks this season; alli has been poor by his own standards and Eriksen plays a different role to lingard. These stats are manipulated all the time anyway without context, unless you actually do think martial has been one of the best players in the prem with his amazing mins per goal or assist record? Forget what those cherrypicked stats say, would you sign lingard ahead of any of those players? That should tell you the value of those numbers.
So yeah, shit argument really,mate.

 

[ivaldo]

Look at the context he brings lingard up in in relation to my point. Hazard has been out assisted and outscored by quite a few centrebacks this season; alli has been poor by his own standards and Eriksen plays a different role to lingard. These stats are manipulated all the time anyway without context, unless you actually do think martial has been one of the best players in the prem with his amazing mins per goal or assist record? Forget what those cherrypicked stats say, would you sign lingard ahead of any of those players? That should tell you the value of those numbers.
So yeah, shit argument really,mate.

Oh so context is important to you now is it? You said "Lingard's very average numbers are testament to that fact" and "If movement is your best attribute, you best have solid numbers to back it up like alli a few seasons ago." Pogue simply pointed you to last season where his numbers were indeed solid, and you think he's shifting context? It's your bloody point, mate.

You were happy to make stats the centre for your argument when you thought it was in your favour, and now it's been pointed out to you that by multiple people it's not quite so important.

Cherry picked stats? Goals and assists over the course of a season? Oh yeah, real obscure stats I've plucked out of thin air there.

Here's a tip. If you're going to base your argument on stats, then you better make sure they are in your favour.

 

[Ubermensch]

Oh so context is important to you now is it? You said "Lingard's very average numbers are testament to that fact" and "If movement is your best attribute, you best have solid numbers to back it up like alli a few seasons ago." Pogue simply pointed you to last season where his numbers were indeed solid, and you think he's shifting context? It's your bloody point, mate.

You were happy to make stats the centre for your argument when you thought it was in your favour, and now it's been pointed out to you that by multiple people it's not quite so important.

Cherry picked stats? Goals and assists over the course of a season? Oh yeah, real obscure stats I've plucked out of thin air there.

Here's a tip. If you're going to base your argument on stats, then you better make sure they are in your favour.

Whoosh.

 

[Player Red]

https://www.eurosport.co.uk/footbal...aking-of-jesse-lingard_sto6784751/story.shtml

A nice article about the making of Jesse.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

13 goals from how deep he has mostly played in centre mid is a decent output. Especially given he is still in his early years as a senior player (regardless of age) and given how poor our attack has been

 

[All 3 United]

Crap again when he came on. Hope he’s not starting against Tunisia, while Loftus-cheek isn’t brilliant he offers one hell of a lot more.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Crap again when he came on. Hope he’s not starting against Tunisia, while Loftus-cheek isn’t brilliant he offers one hell of a lot more.

I think RLC is brilliant when he’s involved but is too passive. Not sure you could get more intensity out of him either.

 

[Jake]

13 goals this season speaks for itself. Didn’t actually realise how productive he is.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

13 goals this season speaks for itself. Didn’t actually realise how productive he is.

His form has tapered off at the end of the season though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

His form has tapered off at the end of the season though.

Same applies to every player in our squad.