Agree with Kag re: the team needs to score. It's no longer simply a matter of your #9 bagging the goals. And to be honest, we do have some players who look capable of scoring goals. Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj all look like players who can provide 10-20 goals a season in all competitions. Add to that, your main striker getting 20-25+, you're sorted.
Javier Hernandez | 2013/14 Performances
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Play to his strengths and we'll score goals.
United's best performance of the season, in my humble, was last Saturday against Newcastle, and proved exactly that.
No point having good players - not just Hernandez - if you don't use them properly.
United's best performance of the season, in my humble, was last Saturday against Newcastle, and proved exactly that.
No point having good players - not just Hernandez - if you don't use them properly.
I think it's fairly evident that chich is never going to be a striker like Rooney or RVP but, as you so rightly said, if you stick him in a team that will get the ball into the right areas of the box, he's going to score goals all day long. Sadly, it's something we have not done anywhere near enough this season and as a result he's been made to look redundant. If we don't use him probably one of the big boys in Europe certainly will.
If we get a player like Marco Reus, what's the purpose for Welbeck? Most of his appearances in big games came as a wide forward playing off the left side of the attack and we fancied using him as a pacey option to run at the defense and create chances. Reus will be the automatic starter in that role, he's the better player, finisher. His opportunities will be completely reduced to being a back up and late sub appearances when chasing a game. Couldn't you argue that Hernandez would be better suited for that role?
Could try playing him in his actual position. Bit unorthodox, admittedly.
Welbeck would act as back up to Rooney as well as one of our rotating attackers. He's versatile, as is the kind of player I'd like to see us bring in, so with some sensible rotation I wouldn't see it as a problem. There's plenty of games to go around. Rooney may get injured. Infact, he certainly will. So Welbeck is there to cover and push him for a place in the team. He's more than good enough as a striker to play in such a role and he's by all accounts quite content with his role the way it is, and that's with Van Persie still here.
As for Hernandez, he's better at coming off of the bench, yes, but if Rooney was injured for a couple of months then I don't have as much faith in his all round game to act as reliable cover. I just prefer Welbeck by some distance.
Are you sure?
In comparison to Welbeck? Definitely.
In comparison to pretty much any other striker to have ever played the game. His stats as a sub are frankly ridiculous. As a starter he's a straight up 1 in 2 man, which is good but not exceptional.
A lot of speculation that Hernandez will be leaving us soon. Obviously, I hope stays. That said, in the event of him leaving we could do with another forward. What about Loic Remy? Apparently he will be leaving Newcastle at the end of the season and wants to join a big club. He has PL experience, a good scoring record and could perhaps offer us something different. Redknapp has said he'll cost around £15 million.
Problem with Hernandez is if the game doesn't suit him, it can be like playing with 10men. His overall game evidently isn't good enough so if he's not getting the services he contributes very little.
At the other end of the spectrum, when we can supply him and the opposition switch off he's one of the most deadliest forwards in the world and will punish any defence.
Therefore starting him can be a risk, as RvP, Rooney & Welbeck will all contribute to the general attacking play even if they don't score etc. Hernandez coming of the bench for the last 20minutes is more effective as the opposition have been used to marking a different type of attacker, tiredness may be setting in and you have Hernandez always lurking on the shoulder, running across the backline. Also generally, when he comes on, it's when we need a goal therefore more attacking opportunities and more balls into the box.
At the other end of the spectrum, when we can supply him and the opposition switch off he's one of the most deadliest forwards in the world and will punish any defence.
Therefore starting him can be a risk, as RvP, Rooney & Welbeck will all contribute to the general attacking play even if they don't score etc. Hernandez coming of the bench for the last 20minutes is more effective as the opposition have been used to marking a different type of attacker, tiredness may be setting in and you have Hernandez always lurking on the shoulder, running across the backline. Also generally, when he comes on, it's when we need a goal therefore more attacking opportunities and more balls into the box.
Keep Hernandez, sell Welbeck! (
) That's all I have to say, especially since the blueprint of our future setup (Kagawa-Mata-Januzaj) allows a deadly striker like Hernandez to flourish.
) That's all I have to say, especially since the blueprint of our future setup (Kagawa-Mata-Januzaj) allows a deadly striker like Hernandez to flourish.Would like to see Chich given a game against Everton on Sunday.
Rooney is half injured and never plays well against Everton anyway plus lets face it, he should be dropped for that joke of a performance against Bayern.
Rooney is half injured and never plays well against Everton anyway plus lets face it, he should be dropped for that joke of a performance against Bayern.
Unfortunately Moyes loves Rooney so much and he just said that Rooney might be fit against Everton in press conference.
It won't ever happen but if it was to me, I would have done that. I think that Chicha is and will always be the better striker. However, I think that there is place for both of them if we sell one of Rooney/RVP.Keep Hernandez, sell Welbeck! (
Keep Hernandez, sell Welbeck! (
If that is the blueprint for the future, Welbeck, Van Persie, and to a lesser extent Rooney is more suited to that style of play. Hernandez is our most one dimensional striker and he is more suited to a direct gameplan, rather than an intricate one. Which really suprises me towards why Moyes has not used him more often in particular alongside our traditional wingers in Valencia and Young. Van Persie Welbeck, Rooney(?), Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj all have great technical ability and know how to play one touch, intricate progressive football. Whereas, with Hernandez there would be question mark towards forming a partnership with players with superior technical ability. He may add the extra cutting edge in terms of finishing, but in terms of our overall style of play and squad cohesiveness, he would be the odd one out.
RVP is still out best player so that wouldn't surprise me if he came back into the team. I disagree with the comment about Januzaj. One of the few things Moyes has done well this season is use Januzaj effectively.
Selling Hernandez is the easy option because IMO he's not as good as the other 3 strikers. So if one striker leaves i would prefer it to be Hernandez.
Did you see the game against Newcastle? Utter nonsense
I keep reading things like this, and it does make sense - I'm not dissing anyone's opinions - but the fact remains, Hernandez scores goals, he hasn't been given the opportunities that the other strikers have, and if playing to the strengths of the others rather than Hernandez was the best option, why have we struggled?
I'd sooner see us play to Hernandez strengths, especially using Janusaj, because it's a straight forward option - supply a goal-scorer and he'll score goals.
This season has been pretty dire and the way we've played has been painful to watch - would we really be much worse off if we'd simplified things and used a guy who (allegedly) can only score goals?
I'd be more sympathetic to other arguments if they proved to work.
The final minutes against Aston Villa, and the whole game against Newcastle, speak volumes to me.
Regardless of what Hernandez will do, in eyes of some fans, he will always be a one-dimensional striker who offers nothing except of his goals. The problem is that some things get writen on stone to some people, and their opinion then never changes. Rafael still for some is the guy who is bad at defending, for example.
Hernandez has gotten much better in his build up play, I think he's under-rated by many on here for that aspect of his play.
The situation with Hernandez has been discussed to death...but i think we will see in the last few games of the season if DM wants him to stay or not. We all know he is not gonna start every week, but considering the league is over it wouldn't do any harm to play Hernandez more often until the end of the season.
The decision for Hernandez (or any player in a similar predicament) is whether to stay and play a bit part for the club, but have the chance to play in some big games. Or play regularly for a team lower down the table (try to resist jokes about United's current league position guys!)
I fear the lack of champions league football and the reduced chances of silverware now SAF has retired will sway Hernandez into leaving.
A good question to ask Ba would be, if he would swap his winning goal in the quarter-finals for a regular starting position back at Newcastle.
I fear the lack of champions league football and the reduced chances of silverware now SAF has retired will sway Hernandez into leaving.
A good question to ask Ba would be, if he would swap his winning goal in the quarter-finals for a regular starting position back at Newcastle.
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Can't base it off two games against weak opposition. For me it's pretty clear that RVP and Rooney are both better strikers than Hernandez so it doesn't surprise me that the team sets up to try get the best out of them. Okay it hasn't happened this season but that could be put down to other factors.
Your idea is right, in theory. Surely setting up the team with a player who can just score goals would be ideal but then in theory surely having a more complete striker like RVP who can contribute to other phases of play as well as score goals would be the best option?
I think the writing is on the wall for Hernandez, RVP is the best player at the club he won't leave... Rooney has been given this mega contract and will probably be the next captain... Welbeck is an academy graduate and has potential so he won't leave either. I can only see it going one way for Hernandez.
Have you seen his entire career at United? It is common knowledge that Hernandez is a poacher, whereas Welbeck is more of a complete forward who lacks clinical finishing. The latter has more in his repertoire to play in this intricate footballing ideology.
When I see "poacher", I think of players like Inzaghi, Claudio Pizzaro, Tore Andre Flo, Higuain, or Mario Gomez. I don't think Chicharito is that kind of a player as he's expanded his game to allow him to drift all over the pitch and get involved everywhere rather than wait for the final ball to get into the box.
I think Chicharito's more like Negredo, Dzeko, Mandzukic, Soldado, Destro, or Michu, i.e. someone who can get involved everywhere to link up with teammates, drag around the opposition defence, and allow the midfielders to get into goalscoring opportunities, but is best at scoring goals in and around the box. It's not like Chicharito's absolutely useless outside of the box. He's improved, on the ball, and has made himself more useful outside of the box. However, the way Moyes has played his strikers, this season, has made it tough for Chicharito to be consistently effective along with our other forwards in this role (rather than having isolated good moments).
I find it strange when you said Hernandez is not a poacher. I taught this was common knowledge, but then I realized that the way you define him as not a poacher is wrong. Rather than saying he has become more involved in our game as your defense, a better analysis would say his off the ball running and the ability to make teams play a deeper line sort of make him more than just a poacher. Nevertheless, the fulcrum of his game is that of a poacher. The article below can help you understand better: (in particular the part that states why he lack playing time)
http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/11755
In my point of view, his all round game has shown improvement this year as you stated, but that improvement is not significant enough for him to occupy several roles on the pitch. Nor is consistent enough to say that he has "expanded his game, to be involved everywhere on the pitch." Using recent example of teams that did not put pressure on our attacks and are void of fight are not the best example to use to make assessment on an individual attributes. Earlier on this season, Hernandez did not show this improvement aforementioned and as such, it exemplifies the consistency that I could not find in his game.
Hernandez most noted attributed are his predatory instinct in the box. His reading/anticipation of the game(be in the right place at the right time) and the ability to finish clean are all characteristic that defines a poacher. Other attribute like technical ability and/or hold up play are not his strong point. If he had showed consistency in regards to the latter, I may see him more than just a poacher, but the basis of his career has been establish by characteristic that are mostly poacher-esque.
The bolded part is what I tried to point out without actually saying the word "poacher" I guess. That's his main game, but he doesn't just stay in the box to finish off chances like what Moyes is trying to do with him, van Persie, Welbeck, and Rooney whenever they play as strikers.
My definition was based on where the strikers receive the ball and where they make their touches. The likes of van Nistelrooy, Cole, and the strikers I mentioned in my previous post would have almost all of their touches in and around the box in central areas only. The 2nd set of strikers I mentioned in my post along with Chicharito have their touches and receive the ball not just in and around the box but also out at the wide channels and deeper from the box. Of course, most of Chicharito's game is in and around the box, but he isn't exclusive to those areas. Even for Chivas, he wouldn't just be in and around the box for the whole of the 90 minutes.
Players like Chicharito, Mandzukic, Dzeko, Destro, etc., will suffer without service as they aren't able to create chances on their own. However, their movement and ability to drag defenders all around the pitch with their movement along with their involvement in other areas allows for other players to get into goalscoring positions and for the team to keep the ball when in comfortable situations. The likes of Gomez have very little lateral and vertical movement, whilst the likes of Chicharito have more movement and have touches in more areas than the former set of strikers.
You may be right in that I may be splitting the poacher group into two subgroups, but I just can't see Chicharito and Gomez, for example, be similar in the way they play on the pitch.
Ah, one of those complete forwards that lacks finishing, yes.
Are you talking about Welbeck?
Yea you did split the term poacher into subgroup, but that is understandable because you can not always look at things from a basic viewpoint. I am also guilty of splitting terms like strikers, midfielders, finishers, etc..into subgroups, so I can not really complain. Hernandez is much more than poacher, but if you had to classify him in a simplistic manner as I did early on, it would be as I stated in my post
.Yea you did split the term poacher into subgroup, but that is understandable because you can not always look at things from a basic viewpoint. I am also guilty of splitting terms like strikers, midfielders, finishers, etc..into subgroups, so I can not really complain. Hernandez is much more than poacher, but if you had to classify him in a simplistic manner as I did early on, it would be as I stated in my post
I guess we agree on something, then.
I just think that Chicharito would do well for a team like Chelsea where he can get lots of service but also contribute to goals scored by their wide players and central midfielders. Even Dortmund could be a good club for him.
It will be interesting to see where he will go next. I wonder what teams will be interested if he wants out (which he obviously does).
TrueHe's exactly that kind of player. Probably not quite as poor on the ball as Inzaghi or Gomez but certainly no better than Higuain.
It’s interesting, I read some time ago that big clubs were interested in him. I think he is considered more as a supersub, and top clubs wouldn’t be interested to play him as main striker. You know what you get with him, so I suppose there will be some offers.
I'd argue that's because not only has Welbeck played better overall but he's scored at a higher rate. Hernández's record in the league is a goal every 170 minutes compared to Welbeck's goal every 140 minutes. He went 447 minutes without scoring a goal between November and January. He hasn't played very often but for the vast majority of the season, when he did play he was substandard. There's no point in playing him when the team are playing poorly because he offers so little - see the home losses against West Brom or Newcastle. He's started playing well now because the team are playing well and when that's the case he is lethal, but for so much of the season we've struggled to create and Hernández is only going to compound that issue.
I think that's debatable. He's not had any chance to get a bit of momentum in order to play to his full potential.
Imo, a team with Januzaj and Hernandez will score goals.
Welbeck is erratic. I have very little faith in him. His strengths may be Chico's weaknesses, but his weaknesses are Chico's strengths. Chico's peformance against Newcastle is better than anything Danny has come up with this year. Happy for him to prove me wrong though - I don't care who scores as long as someone does.
We should keep both Welbeck and Hernandez.
Bye bye Van Persie.
Bye bye Van Persie.
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