Oh, the good old youtube.
This is not relevant to the discussion at all. We're discussing who the better footballer is.
Javier Hernandez | 2013/14 Performances
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This is not relevant to the discussion at all. We're discussing who the better footballer is.
Hernandez does that as well though, he constantly makes runs and tries to get in behind defenders to latch on to a pass. He also makes runs to drag defenders around where he doesn't get the ball, we've all seen him do this loads of times. He's not as good when he gets the ball to feet, but he uses runs and pace to stretch defences in much the same way Welbeck does, except Welbeck is usually doing it in a wide position
A youtube compilation of a month when Welbeck had the best time in his career isn't relevant too.
I agree with most of your points, to be fair. Welbeck is a better player and more naturally talented, but I think that Chicha is the better striker.
Chicha's movement on the box is far better than Welbeck's movement IMO. Also I think that Chicha is pretty good at passing too, he had a ton of assists last season if I am not mistaken.
I agree, the problem with Hernandez is that we can't afford to have those runs from a central position because that is exactly the area we're compensating for. We need runs from elsewhere so that our talented central players can play their football. But yes, I agree with you.
That said, I do think Welbeck is still superior in this respect. His runs are more varied than Hernandez, he'll peel wide or drop deep just as often as he'll run in behind. Again though, Hernandez is getting better at this, he is a much more rounded footballer than he was two seasons ago. The other more significant difference is that when Welbeck makes these runs he actually does something with it, if Hernandez makes a dash out wide and gets possession then it is less likely he'll hurt a team the way that Welbeck can. As I said in that post he's a worse dribbler and passer than Welbeck. Whilst both players make those runs that benefit the team, only one of them has the rounded game to regularly do something with it. The only run I would prefer Hernandez making than Welbeck is a straight run in behind the defence as he is a better finisher.
The other issue worth pointing out this year is that when Hernandez has been in good positions to score, he's often fluffed it. Even moreso with Mexico - when he's had some absolute howlers in the past 12 months.
When he's only on the pitch to put the ball in the net - and screws up the few chances the mediocre team around him create - it makes it even harder to justify his inclusion.
All that said, like many others I still wish we hadn't bought RVP, used Rooney up top and given Danny and Hernandez the kind of minutes they need to be fully match fit and firing.
When he's only on the pitch to put the ball in the net - and screws up the few chances the mediocre team around him create - it makes it even harder to justify his inclusion.
All that said, like many others I still wish we hadn't bought RVP, used Rooney up top and given Danny and Hernandez the kind of minutes they need to be fully match fit and firing.
I fear my stats-based defence of Danny Welbeck's goalscoring in response to posters like Revan is getting more than a little one-note, so I'll try and get in as much as possible here and then take a break.
This season Danny Welbeck has played 1272 minutes in the premier league, a little over 14 full games, and scored 9 goals. If he were able to replicate that form over a proper full season, say about 3000 minutes, that'd be 21 goals. The next bit is rather more subjective because he's a player that gets moved around during matches, but if you take away the 357 of those minutes which have seen him nominally play on the wing, you get 915 minutes, or almost exactly ten full matches. The significance of this being that not a single one of his goals this year has come whilst playing out wide. So, 9 goals in 915 minutes as a premier league striker. Now if he could replicate that over a 3000 minute season, you're looking at a 30 goal season.
Yeah, it's a relatively tiny sample, maybe it's a fluke, and he likely couldn't replicate this over a full season. I can't think of any reason, however, not to give him more chances in his actual position and see what he can do.
This season Danny Welbeck has played 1272 minutes in the premier league, a little over 14 full games, and scored 9 goals. If he were able to replicate that form over a proper full season, say about 3000 minutes, that'd be 21 goals. The next bit is rather more subjective because he's a player that gets moved around during matches, but if you take away the 357 of those minutes which have seen him nominally play on the wing, you get 915 minutes, or almost exactly ten full matches. The significance of this being that not a single one of his goals this year has come whilst playing out wide. So, 9 goals in 915 minutes as a premier league striker. Now if he could replicate that over a 3000 minute season, you're looking at a 30 goal season.
Yeah, it's a relatively tiny sample, maybe it's a fluke, and he likely couldn't replicate this over a full season. I can't think of any reason, however, not to give him more chances in his actual position and see what he can do.
Sure. But his problem is that he is inconsistent, so you can't just take those number and act like they'd work over a season consistently. There is no one on the team who has also missed more easy shots than Welbeck. While his goal scoring ability has gotten better, he still remains the occasional headless chicken when in front of goal.
It isn't because the discussion is who the better football is, not who the better goalscorer is. Welbeck is technically a very good player and has been like this (though more refined now) since he broke into the team. Welbeck had a very good December and the video shows what he is capable of. He can come deep and interchange with Rooney quite well, for example. Hernández - unfortunately - doesn't have the same skill set. With the exception of his goal scoring, which we all know is his main and obvious strength, he doesn't add much to our side. He's not the type of footballer that should be starting games at our club, unless he shows improvement regarding his technical play.
In view of how badly we've done this season, especially at Old Trafford, I can't see that we'd be much worse of with Hernandez's 'obvious strength' then.
Indeed. I heard something the other day about how Hernandez has actually scored more at Old Trafford than Rooney has this season
If you read my first post to Revan in this thread, you would know that I already made a brief comment on that. Moyes should have used Hernández more, e.g. given him more starts. Crosses + Hernández's head = higher frequency of goals (assumption). But when he has been given a start, his touch has been off for most of the games he's played. He requires consistent playing time IMO for his touch to be at a level that would satisfy a lot here. He's not going to get that with Van Persie, Rooney, and Welbeck all ahead of him.
Put him up front, give him decent crosses, and there you go. Simples.
It's sad to see Chicharito get rarely involved. He had a decent cameo against Aston Villa and showed good movement in the striker areas that none of our other forwards displayed. He seems to be the only one going against Moyes' instructions as a forward, and I think this is why he's not getting as many appearances as we would expect.
He can become a great player for any football club who can provide him opportunities. Given a good supply and good players around him, Hernandez can really shine and how himself to be a world class striker. I'll be saddened if he leaves as I feel he could have been a key player for us for many years to come...
He can become a great player for any football club who can provide him opportunities. Given a good supply and good players around him, Hernandez can really shine and how himself to be a world class striker. I'll be saddened if he leaves as I feel he could have been a key player for us for many years to come...
I don't want to bring everything back to David Moyes but I think Chicharito is a victim of Moyes' inexperience with regard to managing, motivating and effectively utilising a big squad. It's a shame because you need versatility and something a bit different with all your forwards and Hernandez, whilst his all round game isn't as accomplished as our other strikers, his predatory instinct is second to none and even in a bit-part role, when managed effectively he can score 15-20 goals (like last season) and if that was the case he'd feel like he was contributing.
Chicharito has been stripped of his confidence by a daft manager who insists on getting in 81 crosses per game but refuses to use his best striker who can score on crosses.
As for Welbeck v Chicharito, Danny does more of what we want in a United striker, such chasing down defenders when they have the ball but Danny has some distance to go to become a top striker. He might get there soon. We shall see. Javier needs to move on if he's ever going to reach his full potential.
As for Welbeck v Chicharito, Danny does more of what we want in a United striker, such chasing down defenders when they have the ball but Danny has some distance to go to become a top striker. He might get there soon. We shall see. Javier needs to move on if he's ever going to reach his full potential.
This.
Spot on.
Welbeck might offer more of an all-round game, but it's Chico's strength that we ultimately need - goals.
To be fair to Moyes, it's much easier to keep a big squad happy and rotate when you're doing well.
Obviously this year has been a disaster so Moyes has tried to rely on his star players. Unfortunately for Chicha, they both play in his position.
Obviously this year has been a disaster so Moyes has tried to rely on his star players. Unfortunately for Chicha, they both play in his position.
As for Hernandez and his future.His reaction after scoring on Saturday made me sad
I hope he ends up somewhere that deserves him in the summer, and not some mid-table club either here or abroad. He should be first choice at a good -- if not world class -- club.
Weren't Rooney and VP both out at the same time? It was ridiculous that Chico didn't get his chance then - he's not even been brought on when we've been crying out for a goal. If we'd won those games I'd understand it more, but time after time this season, especially at home, David Moyes has made very bizarre sub. choices.
He did.
Started against Newcastle and Norwich. Didn't play very well in either game.
Unfortunately for Hernandez, he's now competing for places with wannabe number 10s like Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj as well as our three specialist strikers. He also lacks the versatility of Welbeck to get the occasional game out wide. All of which is only going to marginalise him even more than he was in previous seasons. If he's unhappy with this (and he does seem unhappy) then it's best for all concerned if he moves on.
We fit that criteria on both counts.
What I mean is that if we do sell him I hope he goes somewhere like, I dunno, Roma or Sevilla or even Newcastle, not Fulham (like Berbatov).Don't you think though, that lack of competitive games would have an effect on any player's ability and confidence?
I still feel happier with him on the pitch than I do Welbeck, who I find a frustrating player. And there have been plenty of times when Hernandez has come on that we have looked more likely to score, even if we haven't.
I do but it's a catch 22. The better he plays the more game he gets. The worse he plays the less opportunities he will earn.
Funny you should mention Welbeck as this season his all-round game, versatility and ability to consistently get on the score sheet in the very occasional game he started up front epitomises everything that Herndandez lacks.
He's had a few great games, but an equal amount of frustrating ones. And he falls over a lot.
Think you're being harsh on Welbeck fwiw but Hernandez ticks those last two boxes, without the upside of the few great games.
I'd be less harsh on Welbeck if I didn't see him getting chance after chance, even after a poor game. He's never really inspired me, whereas Hernandez did have that 'major impact' season, which stays with you. I'll be quite happy for Welbeck to inspire me though. At the end of the day, the club is more important than the players.
At the end of the day, the club is more important than the players.I think this man will have a HUGE role to play next week if we are going to go through in this tie. Can see him being sent on in the last 20mins to 'kill', to use a Mourinho expression.
It probably comes down to individual preference as well. Personally, as much as I like him and would love for him to stay, I die a little inside when he struggles to control even the most simple of passes in to him. I'd always choose a Welbeck type ahead of him, though I recognise both have their uses.I'd be less harsh on Welbeck if I didn't see him getting chance after chance, even after a poor game. He's never really inspired me, whereas Hernandez did have that 'major impact' season, which stays with you. I'll be quite happy for Welbeck to inspire me though.
His best performance this season.
Not that there's many to choose from....think what he could have done if he'd been given the opportunity.
Not United class, my arse!
Just made another great run.
Kagaway, Chico, Januzaj...three players who should have played a lot more than they have. Combined with Mata today, they've made the team look like Manchester United.
Held the line very well today.And of course got his goal.
Can't link up outside the box, can't control the ball, Inzaghi mk2 yada yada
The commentators were saying that he's scored 42 goals in 83 starts. And some people still think he's useless as a starter and should only play from the bench
Mata and Kagawa were amazing but Chicha was almost as good as them. Brilliant all round game from him, with a good goal and another one being denied by the post. I hope he won't leave in the summer.
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