Javier Hernandez | 2012/13 Performances

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Striker10 said:
I think it depends on the players around him. I'm glad one year when he was starting against Chelsea at OT as I remember him scoring a big goal. I think his record off the bench is good and he may well be a better player off the bench, but he needs the players around him - at whatever stage of the game, to play with tempo, desire because chances will come.
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Exactly. I tried saying this on the last page.

Hernandez would have no impact as a sub if he was brought on to play in front of a pedestrian midfield.

Hernandez's game doesn't tend to change what tends to change is what happens behind him. He always makes the same runs, always takes up the same positions the difference is sometimes the midfield is able to find him and sometimes it isn't.

Hernandez needs midfielders who can supply him otherwise it doesn't matter if he's on from the 1st minute or the last. He usually looks good as a sub because for whatever reason when he comes on we're making other changes to switch the flow of the game but when the wrong personnel are out there it don't matter e.g. in the 4-4 against Everton he came on with Jones. Did he look like scoring? Big difference to yesterday when he came on with Ando, eh?
 
Yeah that's part of what I was trying to say. If we were always playing with the same tempo we do when we chase the game than Hernandez would probably get a lot of joy as a starter but because we usually play so casually it usually doesn't suit him and if he can't get that space then he doesn't offer a much to the as the others do because they can drift in to different areas that he can't as well. That said he is also always a goal threat which atm some of the others aren't particularly.
 
His slight second season dip seems to have stopped us saying this, but I'm going for it again...

This lad cost us just £6million. £6mil!
 
#07 said:
Exactly. I tried saying this on the last page.

Hernandez would have no impact as a sub if he was brought on to play in front of a pedestrian midfield.

Hernandez's game doesn't tend to change what tends to change is what happens behind him. He always makes the same runs, always takes up the same positions the difference is sometimes the midfield is able to find him and sometimes it isn't.

Hernandez needs midfielders who can supply him otherwise it doesn't matter if he's on from the 1st minute or the last. He usually looks good as a sub because for whatever reason when he comes on we're making other changes to switch the flow of the game but when the wrong personnel are out there it don't matter e.g. in the 4-4 against Everton he came on with Jones. Did he look like scoring? Big difference to yesterday when he came on with Ando, eh?
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You've hit the nail on the head. The 2011 Champions League final was a perfect example of how he needs a midfield that can control a game and provide him with service. Because Barcelona were dominant in midfield that game, he got a lack of service and was invisible up front. Give him the right service and he'll score plenty though.
 
I think a lot of good players would struggle if the midfield is dire and is negative. When your in a crossing position, they say get it in and be conssitant with it so a striker knows when to make runs. It's the same for a forward...if your midfield can't support, it makes it a harder game
 
Yeah but at the same time Hernandez could link up better with his partner/the other attacker. If you look at other strikers at top clubs they're able to contribute in that regard as well as score and so that's something Hernandez needs to work on, he is getting better but he's still not great.
 
Another good performance from him. Him and anderson coming on really shifted the game for us. Nicely taken finish for his goal as well. He really is in good form at the moment and deserves to start. A front three of RVP, Rooney and Hernandez, with Hernandez the furthest forward and the other two in more supporting roles is what I think we should be looking at in terms of the forward line.
 
Ash_G said:
Yeah but at the same time Hernandez could link up better with his partner/the other attacker. If you look at other strikers at top clubs they're able to contribute in that regard as well as score and so that's something Hernandez needs to work on, he is getting better but he's still not great.
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But it's not like Rooney and RVP have had great bits of link-up play between them. There have been flashes of it but compared to the amount of time they've been on the field together, it's really not happened that often. The way we use them currently, they're more prone to funnel our attacks than playing off each other. Plus, Rooney is playing much deeper so it's really not much of a partnership. If you look at other top clubs, they don't really tend to focus on strike partnerships either. Only partnership I've really seen is Aguero-Tevez. Most other top clubs use one main striker who plays as a 9 while the other attacking players provide dynamism to open up the defence.

Based on that, I think he deserves to start but not if we're going to use an immobile midfield. He works well with the likes of Anderson and that was evident yesterday. The fact Hernandez isn't linking up well with the other attackers doesn't really tie into his link-up play. It's more so due to the system and how we use our attackers.
 
Oh yeah on current form that's fine I think I said earlier that as long as Hernandez continues to score than he deserves to be in contention but I meant more as a general point. Our attack will eventually have to pick up and out of the attackers we do have I think if they're on form we'll be a better team with Hernandez as an option rather than as part of the first 11. At the minute though probably one of our biggest problem is that whoever is playing in the hole isn't playing it particularly well atm which will probably have a bigger affect on Hernandez than it would Rooney/rvp who are more able to create something for themselves. But like I said as long as others are out of form and Hernandez is scoring he should be in contention to start.
 
What do you do if his form picks up in a way where he is performing better than Rooney/Rvp and not scoring goals? He is showing signs of it already. SAF usually rewards good form and it'd be harsh to make him sit on the bench just because he didn't score. He's beginning to provide more than goals. RVP is one of our few attackers that can actually create a chance for himself consistently. Rooney used to do this more often but even he struggles to create chances for himself at times.

Our wingers have to pick it up and we need better midfield selections. The movement from our front 4 wasn't bad on saturday but we were simply too slow for the first 60 minutes to reward them for such movement. We ended up getting frustrated and tried forcing through needless passes.

The tactical changes and substitutions worked a treat as we became a much more fluid outfit.
 
I dunno I still don't think the movement is as good as it should be and with young giving nothing that hindered as quite a bit. Like I said a big part is who's playing in the hole. I thought first half both Rooney an rvp were too high, one of them needed to drop more and when they do drop they need to take more responsibility to create. Part of their problem I feel though is that becauses there's limited movement amongst the attackers they don't have much to work with.

As for Hernandez keeping his form without acoring then like I said as long as be does he should be in contention to play. That's the good thing about our squad that when fit we have a number of options. If both Rooney and rvp were having stinkers we could even play Hernandez and kagawa if fergie wanted too. Long term though when everyone is fit I just don't see Hernandez as part of the first 11. I like him but I just think others when on form can give us more.
 
A lot of good posts on this page, I think a lot of it has been covered and we are all on the same page - he has done exceptionally well and definitely deserves to start. Yet because of both his style of play and also our team's mentality (when we've fallen behind) it's a great weapon to bring off the bench - almost like a 'get out of jail free' card, if you will. Aside from Ronaldo or Messi, there is no one else you would prefer to bring on then him to score a goal when you're chasing a game.
 
Ash_G said:
I dunno I still don't think the movement is as good as it should be and with young giving nothing that hindered as quite a bit. Like I said a big part is who's playing in the hole. I thought first half both Rooney an rvp were too high, one of them needed to drop more and when they do drop they need to take more responsibility to create. Part of their problem I feel though is that becauses there's limited movement amongst the attackers they don't have much to work with.

As for Hernandez keeping his form without acoring then like I said as long as be does he should be in contention to play. That's the good thing about our squad that when fit we have a number of options. If both Rooney and rvp were having stinkers we could even play Hernandez and kagawa if fergie wanted too. Long term though when everyone is fit I just don't see Hernandez as part of the first 11. I like him but I just think others when on form can give us more.
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Rooney was higher than usual. They were trying to implement RVP's idea of a "9.5" and it wasn't quite clicking. There was enough movement though for our CMs to pick out better passes but both Scholes and Fletcher kept dallying on the ball. It gave QPR time to adjust to the movement of our attackers and we had to find an alternative route. You're right, Young's productivity is actually counterproductive. Although he started the game at a decent level, he quickly fell off and our attack looked even more disjointed as the half wore on. The problem for me is in this setup, our midfield and attackers aren't working together as a unit. It's just this meet-me-halfway bullshit that just isn't going to cut it.

I think you and I have a different outlook when it comes to matches. I try to treat the selection of players on a game by game basis. You seem to look for the best combination possible at all times. There's this insistence on this forum for Rooney and RVP to play every game. Even if they were in form, I would consider resting them in a game of less importance just because as you said, we have plenty of options. You can at least have them on the bench in case things go tits up, but for me, I would like to see more balanced midfield selections and a tad more variety with our attacking selections. Yes, in most games, it's probably a good idea to start with Rooney and RVP. However, with the various options we have, there is some room to tinker. Point being, we shouldn't have to wait until RVP and Rooney have stinkers to consider playing Kagawa and Hernandez or some other type of combination.
 
Plato said:
Rooney was higher than usual. They were trying to implement RVP's idea of a "9.5" and it wasn't quite clicking. There was enough movement though for our CMs to pick out better passes but both Scholes and Fletcher kept dallying on the ball. It gave QPR time to adjust to the movement of our attackers and we had to find an alternative route. You're right, Young's productivity is actually counterproductive. Although he started the game at a decent level, he quickly fell off and our attack looked even more disjointed as the half wore on. The problem for me is in this setup, our midfield and attackers aren't working together as a unit. It's just this meet-me-halfway bullshit that just isn't going to cut it.

I think you and I have a different outlook when it comes to matches. I try to treat the selection of players on a game by game basis. You seem to look for the best combination possible at all times. There's this insistence on this forum for Rooney and RVP to play every game. Even if they were in form, I would consider resting them in a game of less importance just because as you said, we have plenty of options. You can at least have them on the bench in case things go tits up, but for me, I would like to see more balanced midfield selections and a tad more variety with our attacking selections. Yes, in most games, it's probably a good idea to start with Rooney and RVP. However, with the various options we have, there is some room to tinker. Point being, we shouldn't have to wait until RVP and Rooney have stinkers to consider playing Kagawa and Hernandez or some other type of combination.
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Agree with that. The game is not played on paper. Fixture congestion, injuries, type of opposition, fatigue and all sorts of things are considered when picking a squad, let alone a team.

Even on the weekend for example, not many people would've expected Fletcher to start the game. That kind of reshuffling of the starting XI is something that happens quite often with Fergie, so there is no real need for this fixated obsession with this idea of a starting XI.
 
wonnie said:
A lot of good posts on this page, I think a lot of it has been covered and we are all on the same page - he has done exceptionally well and definitely deserves to start. Yet because of both his style of play and also our team's mentality (when we've fallen behind) it's a great weapon to bring off the bench - almost like a 'get out of jail free' card, if you will. Aside from Ronaldo or Messi, there is no one else you would prefer to bring on then him to score a goal when you're chasing a game.
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Yer, I'm in a pickle about it but it's a good problem to have. He's shown that he can produce the goods when he starts. Problem is, whenever we've started him recently, he's hardly been serviced anything. Tie that in with the fact that we instruct him to primarily stay on the last defender and it's no wonder he has a quiet game.

He's beginning to show more threat when he peels wide. His movement alone troubles teams and it's something we haven't utilized enough while he's been here. In fact, RVP is similar in this fashion and we have yet to exploit this quality of his. Hence, why I hope either him and Rooney can strike up a partnership and really play off each other more or use Kagawa who has the vision and speed of thought to release the final ball to reward such movement. It's a piece of our arsenal we have yet to use and I'm a bit confused why. Guess it ties into our other present issues as an attacking unit, but it would offer another avenue of attack for us.

I wish I was tech savvy enough to make .gifs or video compilations as I would make one of Hernandez's performance against Galatasaray. Although, it wasn't a great performance from him, the quality he showed in his overall play was quite pleasing to see. It's a shame we lost the match, because I think more posters would have paid attention to it if the result had gone our way.
 
I think the midfield were dallying at times but if there was ever a game where we might need someone to get in the hole it was that game. Most the time there was no one there and with qpr so organised it was just too compact for our midfield to really create and with neither Rooney or rvp dropping in to the hole then it meant that no one was pulling their extra man in the middle away.

As for team selection I don't mind tinkering here and there but it depends on the context. I didn't mind the midfield selection as I said in the match day thread but I didn't understand why we'd chosen to play clev and ando in the pointless game in Europe and started neither in this game. Up front right now I think we should try and keep it strong as we're not playing well. If the defence was fine and other attackers/midfielders were playing well then I have no issue rotating. But either way I'm not sure how it applies to what I said about Hernandez. I don't think he should never start but just that when it comes down to being part of the regular first 11, long term I don't think he will be.
 
Plato said:
Then I'm not sure where you've been. His touch has been fine this season. His overall play is much better. Any striker is going to struggle when you a put an ineffective team behind them. Do you disagree?
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Is this a different team to the one that is playing when he comes on from the bench?

I am not saying that he is without merit as a starter, just that he is more suited to coming off the bench to be effective, and that with our striking talents, that is the role that best suits him now.

Posting that video of him scoring against Chelsea doesn't really highlight him being a good starter, we caught them cold that day, it is besides the point, it almost equates to the same dynamic as why he is better coming off the bench.

Comparing him to Solskjaer is wide of the mark. Hernandez has already nearly scored as many goals coming from the bench as Ole scored from the bench in is whole career for us. He is actually much more effective than Ole from the bench.

I don't think that he had a good game against Gala either. He made one good run that came to nothing, now everyone seems to be hanging onto that as qualifying a great performance, not for me.

All in all, I don't see the big controversy in having an ace up your sleeve when you are struggling, he is brilliant from the bench, long may it continue.
 
Depends what you mean by long term ash. If you mean this season, I'll take that as a fair point. A few years down the line? He certainly could be a regular by then.

About your point of someone being in the hole, I'm not sure. With the way we were playing in the first half, putting someone in the hole would have mainly resulted in playing the ball right back to our CMs. Maybe Rooney could have helped out more but again, it's a lot to ask of him. He's a versatile player who works hard and is always improving, but he still hasn't shown the consistency to function well enough in that position for me.

I guess it's something we'll have to accept about Rooney. How I expected him to develop when he first came to us isn't what I'm seeing now. But with each passing game, I'm beginning to realize Rooney is that sort of player who is just going to divide opinion. Not in terms of his worth to the team, but where he's most effective and if it's best for the team. On current evidence, you would certainly say in the hole but now fans are starting to embrace him as a third midfielder. Not as an AM who has less defensive responsibility.

Will he follow the same trajectory as Scholes? I don't know. Largely depends on the style we choose to employ. Thankfully, Rooney is versatile enough that he looks good in just about any setup we put him in. I mean ffs, he was playing out wide after Ando came on and didn't look out of place.

I remember saying to myself, "blimey, this boy could even play out wide and he'd still contribute massively". I'm sure there will be some games where he plays as a 9 and does well. He did it in 09/10 and then a large amount of fans thought we finally found his best position. It's a conundrum that's fun to debate about but one we may never really know the full answer to. That's why I'm a bit unsure how to answer your point about Rooney being in the hole. With Rooney, you just never really know sometimes.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Is this a different team to the one that is playing when he comes on from the bench?

I am not saying that he is without merit as a starter, just that he is more suited to coming off the bench to be effective, and that with our striking talents, that is the role that best suits him now.

Posting that video of him scoring against Chelsea doesn't really highlight him being a good starter, we caught them cold that day, it is besides the point, it almost equates to the same dynamic as why he is better coming off the bench.

Comparing him to Solskjaer is wide of the mark. Hernandez has already nearly scored as many goals coming from the bench as Ole scored from the bench in is whole career for us. He is actually much more effective than Ole from the bench.

I don't think that he had a good game against Gala either. He made one good run that came to nothing, now everyone seems to be hanging onto that as qualifying a great performance, not for me.

All in all, I don't see the big controversy in having an ace up your sleeve when you are struggling, he is brilliant from the bench, long may it continue.
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He started in some of our away matches in 10/11 season and did quite well. He had more than a couple of good runs against Gala but that's besides the point. Again, it's one of those things where I feel we should at least be willing to start him more and see how he fares. It's unfair to do so when we have an immobile midfield and we're struggling to sustain our rhythm throughout the match.

Believe me, I'm not trying to make it a black or white issue. I just would like to see him start more.
 
Plato said:
Depends what you mean by long term ash. If you mean this season, I'll take that as a fair point. A few years down the line? He certainly could be a regular by then.

About your point of someone being in the hole, I'm not sure. With the way we were playing in the first half, putting someone in the hole would have mainly resulted in playing the ball right back to our CMs. Maybe Rooney could have helped out more but again, it's a lot to ask of him. He's a versatile player who works hard and is always improving, but he still hasn't shown the consistency to function well enough in that position for me. I guess it's something we'll have to accept about Rooney. How I expected him to develop when he first came to us isn't what I'm seeing now. But with each passing game, I'm beginning to realize Rooney is that sort of player who is just going to divide opinion. Not in terms of his worth to the team, but where he's most effective and if it's best for the team. On current evidence, you would certainly say in the hole but now fans are starting to embrace him as a third midfielder. Not as an AM who has less defensive responsibility. Will he follow the same trajectory as Scholes? I don't know. Largely depends on the style we choose to employ. Thankfully, Rooney is versatile enough that he looks good in just about any setup we put him in. I mean ffs, he was playing out wide after Ando came on and didn't look out of place.

I remember saying to myself, "blimey, this boy could even play out wide and he'd still contribute massively". I'm sure there will be some games where he plays as a 9 and does well. He did it in 09/10 and then a large amount of fans thought we finally found his best position. It's a conundrum that's fun to debate about but one we may never really know the full answer to. That's why I'm a bit unsure how to answer your point about Rooney being in the hole. With Rooney, you just never really know sometimes.
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Good post on Rooney. I posted something similar in the Rooney thread before the season started - our opinion on what his best position is ever changing. Can't even be bothered to debate about Rooney anymore :lol:
 
Yeah when I say long term I mean more this season although having said that I have my doubts that he will properly become part of the first 11 particularly as Rooney is only 27 and I expect welbeck to get better and better. But who knows.

As for Rooney in the hole I agree that he hasn't been the most creative there and also that in fairness to him the lack of movement from the two wingers does make it tough but I still think we needed someone to go there. Welbeck wasn't gonna cross the ball, young atm can't cross it, and there's only so much the midfield can do. Someone needed to go there.

That's why though hopefully when kagawa gets back he can come in on the left and drift inside and both give Rooney a shiirt option but also create himself.
 
Can't disagree with much there. Well that's enough analysis for now. Now to do some real work!
 
Ash_G said:
As for Rooney in the hole I agree that he hasn't been the most creative there and also that in fairness to him the lack of movement from the two wingers does make it tough but I still think we needed someone to go there. Welbeck wasn't gonna cross the ball, young atm can't cross it, and there's only so much the midfield can do. Someone needed to go there.
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He is joint top of the EPL's assist charts with 6 in 7 starts, granted, a few have come from corners, but the one thing about our Wayne is that he is an end product player - 8 goals and assists in 7 league starts. There is no Welbeck-esque debate as to his talents, the results are there for all to see.
 
Lynk said:
2) His link up play has been brilliant so far, culminated in a wonderful counter attack where he backheeled a ball through Mbia's legs and set Evra free on the left. He has 3 assists, and is ahead of Welbeck in that regard. Welbeck's link up is vastly overrated at times on here. On current showing Hernandez is superior in every way, including, yes, link up
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Do we take into account the style of link up play and the zones of attack that we penetrate when we compare the two?

Fair to say that Hernandez when not looking for that run in behind or playing off the shoulder to evade markers that his dropping deep, linking up play and positioning is completely different to that of Welbeck, who as a more powerful and robust lad can compete for a different type of ball and play in a more bustling kind of 'go-to' link up role.

That is to say I think when you're bringing the ball up for United and you have Hernandez ahead of you, you look for one of two balls. The 'wait till he makes that dart in behind', or the 'wait until he's darted away from his marker to give him a pass that he can take with more freedom'..

Where as Welbeck you know he's going to come deep and you can hit a range of passes to him (hard, driven, low, chest, head) and a good enough majority of those times he will keep possession and in a way that contributes to the overall going forward.

Not having a go - I think both of their style's are different and that extra dimension in behind that JH has makes him a much better pure-attacking striker. One that you play against teams you know you'll dominate midfield and be able to play up from the back. Also a team with CB's that you know he can dominate with his speed and positioning.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
He is joint top of the EPL's assist charts with 6 in 7 starts, granted, a few have come from corners, but the one thing about our Wayne is that he is an end product player - 8 goals and assists in 7 league starts. There is no Welbeck-esque debate as to his talents, the results are there for all to see.
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Yeah those are good but how creative has he really been? For me he should be creating more particularly if he's meant to be the guy in the hole. Like I said he's inhibited someone by the set up of the team because we don't have enough movement but he could still do more. Think he only got like 5 league assists last season. So this is a good start but I'd like to see more in open play.
 
Out of interest, does anyone know why lots of football compilations on YouTube have the top and bottom cut off like that? Is it a copyright thing, like flipping? Bit irritating sometimes.
 
MancFanFromManc said:
Sorry if this has already been posted but its a must read if you havent seen it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A81955092

Javier 'Chicharito' Hernandez- What a guy!
Premier League Manchester United
by U14218110 28 February 2011
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:lol: Some people in life are just really bitter. The first few comments were just poor.

"Sounds like a made up story to be honest.

Same here. Thought it was going to be a joke, but the punchline never came... "

:rolleyes:
 
Plato said:
:lol: Some people in life are just really bitter. The first few comments were just poor.

"Sounds like a made up story to be honest.

Same here. Thought it was going to be a joke, but the punchline never came... "

:rolleyes:
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Made up - You feckon? Sounded plausable to me, but then I checked when someone told me guilable had been removed from the dictionary :p

Now if it was Roy Keane....
 
He doesn't think it was made up, he was quoting someone who does.
 
Hernandez is having a hard time proving that he's not at his best when subbed in.

I think he's lacking the basis technique to be of any use in our general play when there's less space. As the game opens up his pace and movement must be hell to defend against with tired legs.
 
Every single player that has been subbed on this year has looked better then than when they started a game. Aside from Anderson, who looked just as good either way.

It may be something to do with how the game, and our play, is going by the time they get on.

I agree that he hasn't really proven that he isn't at his best as a 'super sub' though.
 
To be fair to Chicarito, he didn't get good balls to work with. He's a box player and thrives best when he is fed through balls by his midfield or wingers. Yesterday, he got little of any of that. He tried a few times on his own, but didn't succeed to well. His shot was very good, and not all goalies would have saved that. Jaaskelainen had a good day, unfortunately.

He looked knackered at the end though, more so than Anderson. That leads me to thinking that Hernandez should conserve his energy a bit more; he burns too much energy chasing the keeper when everyone else stays back.
 
That touch before his attempted curler from 20 yards out was a beauty.
 
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