I think Hernandez will become a fan's favourite at OT because of his goals, attitude and character. His movement is fantastic and looks very quick. His hold up play and vision etc are not great. This is why I don't rate him to ever cement a starting place. However, he will certainly be a useful squad player. I am more excited about other players, in terms of ability.
Javier Hernandez | 2010/11 Performances
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"Feck all you all who thought this guy was our saviour - feckin 7m spent and can't even score regularly" .... the moment he doesn't win us the title single handedly or goes through a barren spell or is anonymous in a big game.
Can't but help be excited and it is taking all I have but, am going to lower my expectations to score at most 10 goals for us this season.
Can't but help be excited and it is taking all I have but, am going to lower my expectations to score at most 10 goals for us this season.
Bet you were bummed when the skills challenge thing was called off - you were looking forward to that, weren't you?
Curious how you've made a decision that his hold up play and vision are not that great - heck in the one play against Chelsea for the reverse ball he played for Berbatov showed both to great effect. Where has he lost the ball or missed passes that were on?
How about giving a 21 year old the chance to IMPROVE his hold up play and vision. Or have we decided, those are things you either are born with or not?
the fact that some of you are even comparing him to Pato is fantastic
I know
Pato couldn't even make his national squad for the world cup
ffs - I was going to say that by the time Pato is 22, he won't have scored in the world cup ...
Against Chelsea, he passed the ball straight to a Chelsea player. I often saw him do this a few times for Mexico too. When he receives the ball, he often passes it back to either one of our defenders or someone very deep ie Carrick. It may frustrate some people later on when the excitement has calmed.
You are born with these skills. Will Keane's hold up play and vision are very good. He is 17/18. He has been born with these talents. Chicharito has been born with the brain for movement, scoring instinct and is a very quick player.
It won't improve, he doesn't have the talent in these areas.
Some people may think that I just post criticism of players. I have been a bit negative recently, towards Macheda. But I am not criticising Hernandez, I think he is a good signing at £7M.
The best thing about Hernandez is he's already shown he can be relied on to score goals against the better teams. I'm sure he'll continue his hot run, having a more average run and hopefully find the form for another hot run of goals this season. But from what he's shown against Argentina, France, Chelsea... I guess us although it wasnt against our first choice defence, still. It doesnt really matter who we're up against, he has a good chance of scoring. Whether he starts or comes off the bench. The 15 goals people are talking about should be measured against the game time he gets but on his current form, I cant see why he wouldnt be given lots of games in which to get them.
So you are saying Rooney did not improve his hold up play during the duration of the League last season?
I am not speaking of someone dribbling the ball ala Messi, this is vision/awareness, which for many many players, comes with experience, and match time. The same can be said for hold up play, he will get marginally stronger, but more importantly wiser, and learn to turn bigger defenders, or shield the ball in ways, that either earn him free kicks, or opens up opportunities for others.
I really am baffled that you think, these two attributes cannot be improved upon. Not every player will have an eye for a pass like Scholes or Fabregas, but to say, it will not improve, is absolutely mental.
I don't know, maybe I don't understand the nuances of football well enough.
You know sometimes I have sympathy for you with the responses you sometimes get to your posts and then you post something that is complete drivel and then I find it hard to have sympathy because that drivel is so badly researched and poorly conceived.
Are you honestly telling me that Henandez cannot be taught simple things that will add to his ability to hold up the ball better such as acquiring and making better use of body strength, putting himself between the ball and the defender more effectively, seeing the lay off to a team mate more quickly and using it more effectively and making better use of the channels?
All of these skills are aquired through gym work, training matches, coaching and most importantly repetition. Why do you think that we even bothered to hire Rene Meulensteen as a skills coach when according to you with some players his job is redundant?
You could save yourself so much time by researching more about coaching instead of simply posting hunches about innate ability which are 100% rubbish. I understand that you are not criticising the player but do yourself a favour mate.
His vision/passing and his holdup play may not be his strengths, but have thus far been impressive in his matches for and against us, for a smaller goalscoring striker.
Whenever he was on for Mexico I was actually pretty impressed with his ability to get out of tight situations and pass it off. Certainly, to judge him as not being good in those areas and being unlikely to ever hold down a regular place with us because of it, is insane.
Vision and hold-up play improve with age, though.
By hold up play, I meant the first touch, then simple pass. Or first time pass. From what I have seen, it has usually been a good - not great - touch, with a sometimes poor pass or pass back to the central defender. As I say, this may frustrate later in the season, because it basically starts the whole attack from the beginning.
Body strength can improve, of course, although from what I have already seen from Hernandez he is not scared to compete physically.
Maybe I should have said link up play instead of hold up play. He is not great in this area. This is the reason I don't feel he is going to be one of our best players this season. I am not sure anyone does feel this way, but if they do, then I have to disagree and don't share this excitement.
What do you think about this Ekeke?
He's played as a lone striker for the national team, a player with anything other than good hold up and link up play can't perform this role. SAF's also said that he's capable of playing as a lone striker and I'm sure he's seen him closely enough in training to come to that conclusion.
An important factor of hold up and link up play is vision and quick decision making, Hernandez already demonstrated that, when he put Berbatov through against Chelsea (the missed chance).
Scholesy do you play football regularly/semi regularly? If not, then it may explain some of your posts.
All of what you have listed above are skills that can be improved with coaching. I've outlined what sort of activities on the training ground help with these things so i'll ask you again:
"Why do we hire a skills coach if not to do things like improve a players first touch, vision or ability to execute a pass?(i do understand that this is no longer Rene's job title)"
I do as I said understand that you are not criticising the player, however i'm struggling to understand how you have reached such an odd conclusion about the limitations of training. This for me isn't about Hernandez who is actually better at hold up play than you seem to think(although for the time being shouldn't be used a a lone striker). Its about your incorrect assumptions about innate ability and training.
feck's sake... He managed to hold his own, both on the ground and in the air, against John Terry just a week ago. You're such a spaz that I'd rather endure watching a monkey eat his own faeces for the rest of my life than argue with such drivel.
Is Scholesy a bit of a wind-up merchant?
I think all skills will improve with time and practice. Just look at Rooney's heading.
Hernandez will never be Drogba-like with his holdup play or be as creative as Ronaldinho, but for a smaller player he doesnt get shrugged off that often and he's good at turning away from trouble and waiting for support. And he can pick out a good pass like his 40 yard pass in pre-season and his slipped in pass for Berbatov. This isnt evidence of a genius passer, but someone who is able to open up a defence and find team mates with good passing. He's a better passer than Torres so I'm not sure why you've said what you have about him not being a starter. He's at United to improve, he's not the finished article and thats why he was such a bargain.
His linkup play has been impressive right from pre-world cup friendlies with Mexico. In his matches for us he has had a few slack passes but... Its pre-season thats the same with all our players. By and large he's done really well with first time passing and his touch has been impressive.
I don't think it is that you don't understand the nuances of football BTV but, at least from the thatguy (am going to stop calling him by his board name) is firmly implanted in football is all based in nature and none of it is nurture.
The one thing I agree with thatguy is Chich does often simply pass the ball back - even if it is way deep back into our half. That seems to be his normal play but, that still doesn't mean he be taught to vary his play and that playing along side other players he won't pick up on other things he could do.
The one thing I agree with thatguy is Chich does often simply pass the ball back - even if it is way deep back into our half. That seems to be his normal play but, that still doesn't mean he be taught to vary his play and that playing along side other players he won't pick up on other things he could do.
Vision is an intangible, you're either develop it early or you don't. Holding up the ball is not. While you may never be WORLD CLASS because your vision isn't great, you can still be good at it.
But even then, what's there to suggest that Hernandez doesn't have very good vision? I mean, it's not like we've seen him fail to spot a passing opportunity, cue "Ooooh why didn't he pass it there". On the contrary, during pre-season we've seen him pick out a 60 yard long ball for someone (Valencia I think) and that lovely through pass to Berbatov, where he spotted the run and threaded it through the Chelsea defence. A ball from which Berbatov was half a yard from being on a one-on-one with the keeper.
I'm not saying that he's the new Paul Scholes just because he made two good passes in pre-season, I'm just saying that there's nothing to suggest that he lacks vision and that we on the contrary have seen glimpses of his vision and passing ability
He had some nice creative passes in World Cup too. Like others have said he is no pass master but he can hold his own.
Its true that all skills which haven't been developed at a younger age, it becomes much harder to improve them by such a great amount whilst you are older. There is a certain amount of truth to you can't teach an old dog new tricks.. with the concept of vision and footballing intelligence its quite true, some are blessed with vision and others can merely improve it to an excellent level.
As for Hernandez, the lad has already shown enough to me to suggest he has very good vision, enough natural talent and appreciation of the movement of team mates.. it could be honed to an outstanding level under Fergie's tutelage.
Players who possess ordinary vision are not capable of the imagination he demonstrated with that fantastic 60 yard pass in one of the friendlies, it wasn't your average cross field pass, it was defence splitting and in behind the full back.. Rooney-esque and his attempt to play Berba in against Chelsea suggests this is a kid who isn't someone that you can label easily, he has tricks up his sleeve and its too early to judge on his limitations.
As for Hernandez, the lad has already shown enough to me to suggest he has very good vision, enough natural talent and appreciation of the movement of team mates.. it could be honed to an outstanding level under Fergie's tutelage.
Players who possess ordinary vision are not capable of the imagination he demonstrated with that fantastic 60 yard pass in one of the friendlies, it wasn't your average cross field pass, it was defence splitting and in behind the full back.. Rooney-esque and his attempt to play Berba in against Chelsea suggests this is a kid who isn't someone that you can label easily, he has tricks up his sleeve and its too early to judge on his limitations.
You wouldnt say that Michael Owen (in his prime), David Villa or Ruud van Nistelrooy had fantastic vision and passing either. In the role that Hernandez plays, passing isnt hugely important. He is a poacher, a striker who plays off the last man and scores goals, passing is a secondary concern.
Chances are his tackling and goalkeeping isnt too hot either - who cares?
We have Rooney and Berbatov as two senior strikers, both of whom possess fantastic vision and passing. Hernandez is almost guaranteed to be partnering one of those two, so if anything, it works far better to have one of them playing deep and doing clever flicks and passes whilst the other (Hernandez) is timing his runs and looking for space behind the back line.
Chances are his tackling and goalkeeping isnt too hot either - who cares?
We have Rooney and Berbatov as two senior strikers, both of whom possess fantastic vision and passing. Hernandez is almost guaranteed to be partnering one of those two, so if anything, it works far better to have one of them playing deep and doing clever flicks and passes whilst the other (Hernandez) is timing his runs and looking for space behind the back line.
Hernandez can only improve playing with the current bunch of players we have. I don't really think his hold up play and vision isn't good; his off the ball runs and that bass to Berbs in the CS was evident enough to think otherwise.
Prior to Wc, a lot of people were thinking he won't be a starter or a regular for us and some even said he's only gonna get loaned out. I think most of them had changed their views now. He is our second choice striker at the club, right behind Berba and Rooney, if that's the duo starting. And thinking about the pace of Nani and Valencia, we may see both of them with Hernandez, tearing apart defence lines with Rooney?Berbs playing a slightly withdrawn second striker role.
He is here for good.
Prior to Wc, a lot of people were thinking he won't be a starter or a regular for us and some even said he's only gonna get loaned out. I think most of them had changed their views now. He is our second choice striker at the club, right behind Berba and Rooney, if that's the duo starting. And thinking about the pace of Nani and Valencia, we may see both of them with Hernandez, tearing apart defence lines with Rooney?Berbs playing a slightly withdrawn second striker role.
He is here for good.
Can you explain how a striker gets the most assists in la liga when Ronaldinho is in his prime then? Luck I take it?
Meanwhile on an irrelevant and frivolous note he was out shopping in Sainsburys last night. I've now seen 4 different fan photos from his attempted shopping trip and his meetings with the various United fans who wanted to wish him well.
Poor lad.
Did he know where he was coming to?
Poor lad.
Did he know where he was coming to?Meanwhile on an irrelevant and frivolous note he was out shopping in Sainsburys last night. I've now seen 4 different fan photos from his attempted shopping trip and his meetings with the various United fans who wanted to wish him well.
Poor lad.
Pics or didn't happen.
Nothing. In fact I would argue he has good vision as he has demonstrated good anticipation and anticipation, anticipating the flow of play is a part of vision.
Lee Dixon: The 'Little Pea' can be bigger than Ronaldo, and he might just win the title for United - News & Comment, Football - The Independent
Better than Ronaldo is going OTT, but alot of the pundits seem to be keeping a keen eye on this kid, lets hope they're not building him for a fall. Its been a long time since we signed someone thats captured the imagination like Hernandez.
Well, it's a long way OTT. Let's not forget just how good Ronaldo was by the time he was 22.
Still, he's certainly a promising lad, can't wait for him to play more.
Still, he's certainly a promising lad, can't wait for him to play more.
I think there's an element of trying to show they knew something about him before he signed and that they have their finger on the pulse, because I'm sure like most of us, they knew nothing/very little about him...and now they've seen him doing well, they're all jumping on board to 'prove' their knowledge
Very true
Coming off a good World Cup, and a decent end to the season. Pretty much the same position as Ronnie Post-World Cup 2006 tbh. If anything, Hernandez is actually better, having had a more consistent goalscoring record compared to Ronaldo at that point in his career...
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