Jarrad Branthwaite

[caid]

I'm not pissed off. I don't want to sell him.
What's pissed us off is a low ball bid then trying to use the press to say he's agitated etc and your minority owner trying to give it the Tony soprano act.

How would you react if real Madrid came in with a £25m bid for mainoo and then used the press and Perez started saying stuff like..

'european football needs to be careful not to annoy us cos we are bigger than everyone'

Yeah Ratcliffe comes off as a bit of a knob. Hopefully he'll shut up and disappear into the background now others are in place. The 2nd part of your post sounds pretty standard fare for Real, they'd go further and call it slavery though.
I don't think 35-45 is a low ball offer though. In a world where De Ligt is 45 that sounds pretty fair. I guess i'd expect to pay loads of random extortionate extra's on top for United tax, PL to PL tax, English player tax. But i dont think any of them are especially fair or reasonable. That's your prerogative obviously - you have no good reason to be fair or reasonable.

 

[devilish]

Why not Jarrad at LB?
Anyway i think this one is done and dusted. I dont see us having the budget to tempt them even if we wanted to. We shouldn't want to when players like De Ligt are half the price.

I've already explained why in previous posts. Please read them up if you're still interested. Basically its down to aerial prowess and pace, something that De Ligt and Martinez combo do not provide to a high level as a pairing

 

[Teja]

I've already explained why in previous posts. Please read them up if you're still interested. Basically its down to aerial prowess and pace, something that De Ligt and Martinez combo do not provide to a high level as a pairing

What do you make of the Inacio links? They seemed to have died down now but I thought he'd be the prototype LCB / LB type player that you're describing. I assumed we'd make a 3 with Martinez in the middle to use his passing ability with Inacio and whoever we got for the right center back (De Ligt it turned out) as the defenders who covered the wide spaces.

You could make the three like: Inacio -- Martinez -- De Ligt or Martinez -- Branthwaite -- De Ligt but I think the former better suits the players. It's also a straight swap whenever Shaw is fit so we don't need to chop and change the dynamic to get him in the side.

 

[caid]

I've already explained why in previous posts. Please read them up if you're still interested. Basically its down to aerial prowess and pace, something that De Ligt and Martinez combo do not provide to a high level as a pairing

Yeah, sorry. I dont think it'll happen so i'll just let it go.

 

[Leftback99]

Sadly these disproven narratives will always continue if someone wants to use the narrative to fit their argument.

When clearly we are weak on set pieces and Ten Hag himself admits Martinez isn't strong at heading then it does nothing to disprove the 'narrative'.

 

[devilish]

What do you make of the Inacio links? They seemed to have died down now but I thought he'd be the prototype LCB / LB type player that you're describing. I assumed we'd make a 3 with Martinez in the middle to use his passing ability with Inacio and whoever we got for the right center back (De Ligt it turned out) as the defenders who covered the wide spaces.

You could make the three like: Inacio -- Martinez -- De Ligt or Martinez -- Branthwaite -- De Ligt but I think the former better suits the players. It's also a straight swap whenever Shaw is fit so we don't need to chop and change the dynamic to get him in the side.

I don't watch Portuguese football enough to give an educated opinion on this however I don't think that ETH wants a 3 CB defense. I very much doubt that anyone wants to touch Shaw at this point in time either. He's been injured for far too time at this point.

Many underestimate how important someone whose good in air is in the EPL. Liverpool has absolute beasts in Van Dijk (3.8) in aerial duel won, Konate (3.1) and Quansah (2,3). Arsenal has Saliba (6ft4), White (6ft1), Tomiyasu (6ft2) and Magalhães (6ft3). City aren't as imposing but most of their defenders are 6ft+ tall. The converted CB is not a novel thing either. ETH did it at Ajax, Arsenal look set to do it with Timber (Ben White can play as CB as well) etc.

I believe that ETH had ignored that aspect at first. Martinez (5ft9) and Malacia (5ft7) were introduced in a high line defense that poorly suited the only beast we have in aerial duels (ie Maguire). That placed too much pressure on Varane, Shaw and Dalot with only Varane being 6ft3. With Shaw gone due to injury more pressure ETH had to choose between compromising the high line thus reintroducing Maguire or play McT to help out. Either option was a poor solution to the problem.

In my opinion this issue is now being addressed. De Ligt is 6ft2 and is better in aerial duels then Varane is. Casemiro is set to be replaced by another 6ft player in Ugarte. If we add Jarrad then we'll getting a 6ft4 CB whose better n aerial prowess then the likes of De Ligt, Varane and Stones let alone the likes of Martinez. Hence why I can see us returning for Jarrad. He offers a certain mobility and ability in aerial duels none of our current defenders can provide. He would also end our reliance on McT as well.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I don't watch Portuguese football enough to give an educated opinion on this however I don't think that ETH wants a 3 CB defense. I very much doubt that anyone wants to touch Shaw at this point in time either. He's been injured for far too time at this point.

Many underestimate how important someone whose good in air is in the EPL. Liverpool has absolute beasts in Van Dijk (3.8) in aerial duel won, Konate (3.1) and Quansah (2,3). Arsenal has Saliba (6ft4), White (6ft1), Tomiyasu (6ft2) and Magalhães (6ft3). City aren't as imposing but most of their defenders are 6ft+ tall. The converted CB is not a novel thing either. ETH did it at Ajax, Arsenal look set to do it with Timber (Ben White can play as CB as well) etc.

I believe that ETH had ignored that aspect at first. Martinez (5ft9) and Malacia (5ft7) were introduced in a high line defense that poorly suited the only beast we have in aerial duels (ie Maguire). That placed too much pressure on Varane, Shaw and Dalot with only Varane being 6ft3. With Shaw gone due to injury more pressure ETH had to choose between compromising the high line thus reintroducing Maguire or play McT to help out. Either option was a poor solution to the problem.

In my opinion this issue is now being addressed. De Ligt is 6ft2 and is better in aerial duels then Varane is. Casemiro is set to be replaced by another 6ft player in Ugarte. If we add Jarrad then we'll getting a 6ft4 CB whose better n aerial prowess then the likes of De Ligt, Varane and Stones let alone the likes of Martinez. Hence why I can see us returning for Jarrad. He offers a certain mobility and ability in aerial duels none of our current defenders can provide. He would also end our reliance on McT as well.

I've not watched much of de Ligt so I cannot say for sure based on the eye test but statistically Varane is streets ahead, which is why your comment here is surprising because you've used a lot of stats.

Agree with the general sentiment of needing more physicality and aerial prowess though.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I would assume the club is maintaining the posture that Casemiro is in their plans so the Saudi’s pay a big fee. I would also like to see McTominey sold because he doesn’t contribute as a midfielder.

It would be a big mistake to go into such a long season expecting Mainoo (and Garnacho) to play so many games. We definitely need another option in midfield. It just wasn’t functional last season.

What’s a big fee?

The league has never paid more than £25m for anyone over 30. They will not start with Casemiro.

 

[Baneofthegame]

What’s a big fee?

The league has never paid more than £25m for anyone over 30. They will not start with Casemiro.

Neymar?

 

[simonhch]

What’s a big fee?

The league has never paid more than £25m for anyone over 30. They will not start with Casemiro.

Id suggest the most we could get for Casemiro is 30m. More likely 25m. If it isn’t to Saudi Arabia, where wage demands don’t really matter in the same way, and we were selling him to someone in Europe, then I’d venture we’d be lucky to get a fee at all. We’d have to eat that so they could pay him a substantial signing on fee to supplement his lower wages and bring them in line with his United contract.

It was preposterous to give someone his age a 4 year deal on the wages we did. Negligent financial planning. And the sort of thing I don’t expect Ineos to do. To be frank, if we can’t get him off to Saudi, I’d expect him to stay.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Neymar?

Yeah he may have been 30 when they bought him tbf.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Id suggest the most we could get for Casemiro is 30m. More likely 25m. If it isn’t to Saudi Arabia, where wage demands don’t really matter in the same way, and we were selling him to someone in Europe, then I’d venture we’d be lucky to get a fee at all. We’d have to eat that so they could pay him a substantial signing on fee to supplement his lower wages and bring them in line with his United contract.

It was preposterous to give someone his age a 4 year deal on the wages we did. Negligent financial planning. And the sort of thing I don’t expect Ineos to do. To be frank, if we can’t get him off to Saudi, I’d expect him to stay.

I’d keep him if I’m honest. Not as a 40+ games a year guy. But 25 matches. He’s exceptional. We can manage his game time and pick his matches. He helps Mount and Mainoo improve.

He’s still got performances in Him.

 

[simonhch]

I’d keep him if I’m honest. Not as a 40+ games a year guy. But 25 matches. He’s exceptional. We can manage his game time and pick his matches. He helps Mount and Mainoo improve.

He’s still got performances in Him.

I don’t disagree. He’s been written off based on last season, but he’d been overplayed for two years and was taking on this crazy box to box role which isn’t his natural game or what you want him doing at his age. He is famous for his exceptional physical conditioning and taking care of his body, so I think with a summer of rest and not being overplayed during the season, he could be an important player for us still.

I want us to bring in Ugarte but I also think the two can overlap for a season or two.

 

[Maluco]

What’s a big fee?

The league has never paid more than £25m for anyone over 30. They will not start with Casemiro.

Veiga, Milinkovic-Sávic, Mahrez, Fabinho, Mitrovic, Neves, Malcom, Otávio, Neymar were all over 30 million Euros. Highlighted all 29+

Casemiro is a better player with a much higher profile than Fabinho. We can get 35 million no problem. He has a higher profile and a better honours list than anyone above, (bar Neymar for profile)

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Veiga, Milinkovic-Sávic, Mahrez, Fabinho, Mitrovic, Neves, Malcom, Otávio, Neymar were all over 30 million Euros. Highlighted all 29+

Casemiro is a better player with a much higher profile than Fabinho. We can get 35 million no problem. He has a higher profile and a better honours list than anyone above, (bar Neymar for profile)

To be a prick… £25 is €29m so I’m not wrong across the board.

Point being, they don’t really spend lots of money. They don’t pay high fees. It’s a myth.

 

[Maluco]

To be a prick… £25 is €29m so I’m not wrong across the board.

Point being, they don’t really spend lots of money. They don’t pay high fees. It’s a myth.

They pay decent money when the player has a profile, which Casemiro absolutely does. I would be shocked if we got under £25 million for him when he is still a first teamer and has the trophy cabinet and profile that he does.

Liverpool got £40 million for a Fabinho with no legs!

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

They pay decent money when the player has a profile, which Casemiro absolutely does. I would be shocked if we got under £25 million for him when he is still a first teamer and has the trophy cabinet and profile that he does.

Liverpool got £40 million for a Fabinho with no legs!

Maybe. Personally, I don’t think we’ll get a bid, nor do I think he’d go there.

 

[daba]

I’d rather keep Maguire and have him as backup to De Ligt. We’d then have similar pairings to rotate.

Martinez - De Ligt
Branthwaite - Maguire
Evans - Kambwala

Personally I would look to loan out Kambwala for a season rather than face him sitting around as 6th choice.

CB is one of those position where experience is essential, which is why CBs don’t tend to break through super young unless they are immensely talented and physical, especially at the top clubs. A year at a lower prem team or upper champ team would do Willy the world of good, and he can then come in as the outright 4th choice in a year when Evans and Maguire move on.

 

[croadyman]

Personally I would look to loan out Kambwala for a season rather than face him sitting around as 6th choice.

CB is one of those position where experience is essential, which is why CBs don’t tend to break through super young unless they are immensely talented and physical, especially at the top clubs. A year at a lower prem team or upper champ team would do Willy the world of good, and he can then come in as the outright 4th choice in a year when Evans and Maguire move on.

You might be on to something there

 

[sparx99]

Personally I would look to loan out Kambwala for a season rather than face him sitting around as 6th choice.

CB is one of those position where experience is essential, which is why CBs don’t tend to break through super young unless they are immensely talented and physical, especially at the top clubs. A year at a lower prem team or upper champ team would do Willy the world of good, and he can then come in as the outright 4th choice in a year when Evans and Maguire move on.

Yeah, I agree. I was just showing the seniority and pairings.

 

[Adnan]

I think aerial ability is over-rated for a team that has ambitions to implement a dominant brand of football in-possession in the present day EPL. The tactics have evolved, especially out of possession where defending from the front via team oriented high pressing is now dominant at top clubs.

Man City would've still won the league without having CBs who are tall imo. I think they win several league titles with Martinez in their team. Because when you as a coach have a idea to dominate the ball in-possession backed up by a strong out of possession game where pressing from the front and controlling the defensive transitions out of possession is the default idea, then you have more in-game control and have to defend your own box a lot less. The best form of defense is to first make better use of the ball and then back that up by defending well from the front as a collective unit.

Ideally we should be targeting a player who ticks all the boxes and is also aerially dominant at CB. But if the market is such that you as a team will have to sacrifice technical ability on the ball along with agility to accomodate a aerially dominant CB, then that is the wrong move imo because we'll have then priorized the aerial threat, when the biggest issue at the club is in possession followed by a lack of physicality and athleticism.

I believe we should prioritise in the order below or we should've just kept Smalling, Varane and even Maguire who are all aerially strong players.

1. Technical ability (first touch, ball control)

2. Physicality and athleticism to control defensive transitions in a higher defensive line

3.Aerial ability

 

[croadyman]

Suggestions we haven't contacted Everton for over a week but don't believe it's off as suggested

 

[El Jefe]

I think aerial ability is over-rated for a team that has ambitions to implement a dominant brand of football in-possession in the present day EPL. The tactics have evolved, especially out of possession where defending from the front via team oriented high pressing is now dominant at top clubs.

Man City would've still won the league without having CBs who are tall imo. I think they win several league titles with Martinez in their team. Because when you as a coach have a idea to dominate the ball in-possession backed up by a strong out of possession game where pressing from the front and controlling the defensive transitions out of possession is the default idea, then you have more in-game control and have to defend your own box a lot less. The best form of defense is to first make better use of the ball and then back that up by defending well from the front as a collective unit.

Ideally we should be targeting a player who ticks all the boxes and is also aerially dominant at CB. But if the market is such that you as a team will have to sacrifice technical ability on the ball along with agility to accomodate a aerially dominant CB, then that is the wrong move imo because we'll have then priorized the aerial threat, when the biggest issue at the club is in possession followed by a lack of physicality and athleticism.

I believe we should prioritise in the order below or we should've just kept Smalling, Varane and even Maguire who are all aerially strong players.

1. Technical ability (first touch, ball control)

2. Physicality and athleticism to control defensive transitions in a higher defensive line

3.Aerial ability

This doesn’t add up when Arsenal have Saliba and Gabriel and Liverpool have VVD and Konate.

No matter how much you want to keep the ball on the deck in the PL, the other team will test you in the air. City pretty much play four CBs and even Dias and Ake that aren’t the tallest have a great leap. Winning the first ball is the key to being a dominant possession side so you need players to win these duel not only on the ground but in the air too.

There is nothing overrated about it at all if you want to be a dominant side in the league.

 

[Adnan]

This doesn’t add up when Arsenal have Saliba and Gabriel and Liverpool have VVD and Konate.

No matter how much you want to keep the ball on the deck in the PL, the other team will test you in the air. City pretty much play four CBs and even Dias and Ake that aren’t the tallest have a great leap. Winning the first ball is the key to being a dominant possession side so you need players to win these duel not only on the ground but in the air too.

There is nothing overrated about it at all if you want to be a dominant side in the league.

What doesn't add about what I said? Your response is a bit vague

 

[Adnan]

Liverpool at their best under Klopp could build up play in possession and also control defensive transitions at a high level. The same applies to City and even Arsenal who have high level build up potential, and these teams also control the defensive transitions at a high level. Hence the same teams have developed a playstyle which prioritises what they do in possession in the build up phase and also what they do by defending from the front via the high press as a collective unit. Now if they had ignored the aforementioned two concepts and went straight to improving their teams aerially, then they wouldn't be as dominant as they're currently.

Man Utd in the last 10/11 years have not been able to build up play at good enough level from the back and also haven't come close to pressing high as a collective unit. A lot of fans want to see Man Utd develop a dominant play style where we can positionally manouvere the ball forward in the build up phase, commit a high volume of players in the final third to apply the press and have players in deeper areas who are capable of controlling the space against counter attacking threats with players committed in the final third.

So when the team is unable to do the above at a good level, then you will struggle to get out of your own half. And that inevitably will result in playing to the strengths of some of our more limited players on the ball. De Gea will then be saving us, but will provide very little on the ball. Wan Bissaka will also then be a stand out player because our inability to progress play effectively from deeper areas will require Wan Bissaka to shut out the opposing wing forward. Maguire will also look even more comfortable defending the box deeper because his lack of agility won't be a big issue in a deeper role and his aerial ability will shine through. And eventhough Maguire is a capable player on the ball if given time and space, his biomechanics make him a target for teams who are adept at closing off the space via a coordinated press.

I'm not saying aerial ability isn't important but the priority has to be to sign players who are going to help the team in possession as well as control the spaces at the back in a higher defensive line because our own high press will be vulnerable to being played out of by the opponent to open counter attacking scenarios.

Man Utd's problem is much bigger than defending set-pieces and prioritising the development of what we do in possession in the build up phase from deeper, backed up by a high press which will allow us to defend higher up the pitch will improve us alot imo.

And if we got to a stage where our only issue was defending set-pieces, then we will be very close to challenging for the league.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Aerial ability is defence is usually very important if you want to win big trophies, especially in English football which is still highly physical. As with everything, there are always some anomalies where a specific weakness is offset by other strengths. City do have Rodri who is decent in the air for a DM, Dias who is good in the air in general and Walker who sweeps up anything in behind covering up the gap.

 

[Midrich]

What i like about him is that he is an absolute titan.

He has the stature of Mertersacker, the Strength of Haaland and yet slide tackles all the time like Wan Bissaka.

I'm not a footballer, but something tells me that if i was a forward - there's something about him that makes him quite scary to go up against.

 

[El Jefe]

What doesn't add about what I said? Your response is a bit vague

Liverpool at their best under Klopp could build up play in possession and also control defensive transitions at a high level. The same applies to City and even Arsenal who have high level build up potential, and these teams also control the defensive transitions at a high level. Hence the same teams have developed a playstyle which prioritises what they do in possession in the build up phase and also what they do by defending from the front via the high press as a collective unit. Now if they had ignored the aforementioned two concepts and went straight to improving their teams aerially, then they wouldn't be as dominant as they're currently.

Man Utd in the last 10/11 years have not been able to build up play at good enough level from the back and also haven't come close to pressing high as a collective unit. A lot of fans want to see Man Utd develop a dominant play style where we can positionally manouvere the ball forward in the build up phase, commit a high volume of players in the final third to apply the press and have players in deeper areas who are capable of controlling the space against counter attacking threats with players committed in the final third.

So when the team is unable to do the above at a good level, then you will struggle to get out of your own half. And that inevitably will result in playing to the strengths of some of our more limited players on the ball. De Gea will then be saving us, but will provide very little on the ball. Wan Bissaka will also then be a stand out player because our inability to progress play effectively from deeper areas will require Wan Bissaka to shut out the opposing wing forward. Maguire will also look even more comfortable defending the box deeper because his lack of agility won't be a big issue in a deeper role and his aerial ability will shine through. And eventhough Maguire is a capable player on the ball if given time and space, his biomechanics make him a target for teams who are adept at closing off the space via a coordinated press.

I'm not saying aerial ability isn't important but the priority has to be to sign players who are going to help the team in possession as well as control the spaces at the back in a higher defensive line because our own high press will be vulnerable to being played out of by the opponent to open counter attacking scenarios.

Man Utd's problem is much bigger than defending set-pieces and prioritising the development of what we do in possession in the build up phase from deeper, backed up by a high press which will allow us to defend higher up the pitch will improve us alot imo.

And if we got to a stage where our only issue was defending set-pieces, then we will be very close to challenging for the league.

Aerial ability is defence is usually very important if you want to win big trophies, especially in English football which is still highly physical. As with everything, there are always some anomalies where a specific weakness is offset by other strengths. City do have Rodri who is decent in the air for a DM, Dias who is good in the air in general and Walker who sweeps up anything in behind covering up the gap.

I think @amolbhatia50k has summarised what I wanted to say.

I took exception to your first line about aerial ability being overrated. You’ve listed it third in your priorities but I’d argue it’s just as important as anything else in the PL.

Romero is a really really good defender, he can do all the things you mention but is terrible in the air. If we had him instead of Varane last year who can’t play out from the back but is phenomenal in the air we wouldn’t be a better team. Any advantage we gain from building up the play more will be equally punished with our lack of aerial ability.

My point about using City, Liverpool and Arsenal is I believe they have targeted aerial ability as just as much importance as technical ability and athleticism. City and Arsenal concede the least from set pieces also.

 

[Ekeke]

I think @amolbhatia50k has summarised what I wanted to say.

I took exception to your first line about aerial ability being overrated. You’ve listed it third in your priorities but I’d argue it’s just as important as anything else in the PL.

Romero is a really really good defender, he can do all the things you mention but is terrible in the air. If we had him instead of Varane last year who can’t play out from the back but is phenomenal in the air we wouldn’t be a better team. Any advantage we gain from building up the play more will be equally punished with our lack of aerial ability.

My point about using City, Liverpool and Arsenal is I believe they have targeted aerial ability as just as much importance as technical ability and athleticism. City and Arsenal concede the least from set pieces also.

He is absolutely not bad in the air. 89% percentile of aerials success is just below the best bunch of of CBs in the air

Varane has just been very very strong in the air in his latter career. 99% percentile.

Saliba would be an example of someone who is "terrible" in the air

 

[El Jefe]

He is absolutely not bad in the air. 89% percentile of aerials success is just below the best bunch of of CBs in the air

Varane has just been very very strong in the air in his latter career. 99% percentile.

Saliba would be an example of someone who is "terrible" in the air

I guess this is why stats are interesting. My eyes tell me Saliba is a beast in the air, same with Gabriel and his stats look way worse than Saliba’s.

What I did find funny after randomly checking a few defenders stats is that Lisandro Martinez aerial stats are laughably bad but he doesn’t engage in as many duels.

 

[saik]

I guess this is why stats are interesting. My eyes tell me Saliba is a beast in the air, same with Gabriel and his stats look way worse than Saliba’s.

What I did find funny after randomly checking a few defenders stats is that Lisandro Martinez aerial stats are laughably bad but he doesn’t engage in as many duels.

Yea this is why stats need to be applied in context and the above backs up what I said in the De Ligt thread. I'm not surprised to see Saliba's stats so low. Arsenal had one of the best defences last season and it's because of how dominant they were. They had very little of actual defending to do and is why I tend to agree with @Adnan's overall point that aerial dominance should take a lower priority if we looking to build a dominant team. Don't get me wrong, it is important but their other skillset should take a higher priority.

Basically yea. They tweeted that graphic that Sky showed on their channel probably.

Sky graphic :





It definitely has impact but I'd say theres other things affecting it too. When Maguire and Evans were playing, a lot of the time we were deep in our box defending for our lives or holding on to slender leads. Obviously those stats shown would shine. With Martinez he would push higher up the pitch being aggressive near the half way line.

I haven't checked but I'm pretty sure Arsenal's defenders would be below Maguire and Evans for those stats as well. Simply because of their dominant play and how little defending they have to do each game.

 

[Adnan]

I think @amolbhatia50k has summarised what I wanted to say.

I took exception to your first line about aerial ability being overrated. You’ve listed it third in your priorities but I’d argue it’s just as important as anything else in the PL.

Romero is a really really good defender, he can do all the things you mention but is terrible in the air. If we had him instead of Varane last year who can’t play out from the back but is phenomenal in the air we wouldn’t be a better team. Any advantage we gain from building up the play more will be equally punished with our lack of aerial ability.

My point about using City, Liverpool and Arsenal is I believe they have targeted aerial ability as just as much importance as technical ability and athleticism. City and Arsenal concede the least from set pieces also.

The discussion was centred around Martinez and how him being on the shorter side should mean he's utilised at LB with de Ligt and Branthwaite as the CBs. So we're specifically talking about the role of the CB when it comes to aerial ability when defending set pieces. But what those earlier discussions ignored, was the importance of technical ability on the ball for a team that aims to exert itself in possession with the aim of playing the game in the opponent's half. This wasn't the case in the EPL 10 years ago, but it is now with some of the brightest coaching minds taking up roles at a number of EPL clubs with the top of the EPL being dominated by those teams. And aerial ability for a CB with the aforementioned coaching mindset isn't as important because those principles prioritise what you do in possession as a priority and they back that up by defending from the front via the high press in a higher defensive line to keep the opponent pinned in their own half. So in that system, what you do on the ball in the build up phase and off the ball higher up the pitch is more important than winning aerial duels. The more control you exert over the opponent by pinning them in their own half the less box defending you have to do as a team.

City and Liverpool have on numerous occasions scored 90+ goals just in the league by applying the above principles. City and Liverpool have scored over a 100 goals each in the league alone under Pellegrini and Rodgers and their successors (Klopp & Guardiola) have carried on the momentum and consistency by implementing a play style which sacrifices defensive stability for goals.

So with United being a few years away from mounting a realistic title challenge, it makes sense to develop the team by prioritising technical ability first, followed by raising the physical and athletic level of the team, which are two areas that are lacking imo and these areas would give us the biggest improvement as far as playing a more expansive game. I'm not saying aerial ability isn't important but I don't believe it's a good idea to prioritise the aerial threat over ball playing ability and also the ability to cover ground quickly. Now if there's a CB who ticks all the boxes, then I want us to sign that player but if not, I don't think it's a good idea to compromise on ball playing ability to sign a CB who will win more aerial duels. Even Arsenal who you mention as a example, it took them finishing 8th, 8th, 5th and then 2nd before they had put the pieces together . I'm not saying we should ignore anything, and I want us to have a team that can deal with every threat once the team building cycle is complete.

And as far as what Amol is saying, I do agree, and you don't necessarily need your CBs to win the aerial duels if you can make up for their short comings from midfield and fullback. The EPL is more demanding (imo) now physically and athletically compared to how it used to be and the calibre of players being recruited in the EPL is also at a high level. Take Brighton as a example, their midfield with Wieffer and Baleba looks physically, athletically, aerially and technically very good.

Please feel free to disagree with me.

 

[Changeisgood]

The discussion was centred around Martinez and how him being on the shorter side should mean he's utilised at LB with de Ligt and Branthwaite as the CBs. So we're specifically talking about the role of the CB when it comes to aerial ability when defending set pieces. But what those earlier discussions ignored, was the importance of technical ability on the ball for a team that aims to exert itself in possession with the aim of playing the game in the opponent's half. This wasn't the case in the EPL 10 years ago, but it is now with some of the brightest coaching minds taking up roles at a number of EPL clubs with the top of the EPL being dominated by those teams. And aerial ability for a CB with the aforementioned coaching mindset isn't as important because those principles prioritise what you do in possession as a priority and they back that up by defending from the front via the high press in a higher defensive line to keep the opponent pinned in their own half. So in that system, what you do on the ball in the build up phase and off the ball higher up the pitch is more important than winning aerial duels. The more control you exert over the opponent by pinning them in their own half the less box defending you have to do as a team.

City and Liverpool have on numerous occasions scored 90+ goals just in the league by applying the above principles. City and Liverpool have scored over a 100 goals each in the league alone under Pellegrini and Rodgers and their successors (Klopp & Guardiola) have carried on the momentum and consistency by implementing a play style which sacrifices defensive stability for goals.

So with United being a few years away from mounting a realistic title challenge, it makes sense to develop the team by prioritising technical ability first, followed by raising the physical and athletic level of the team, which are two areas that are lacking imo and these areas would give us the biggest improvement as far as playing a more expansive game. I'm not saying aerial ability isn't important but I don't believe it's a good idea to prioritise the aerial threat over ball playing ability and also the ability to cover ground quickly. Now if there's a CB who ticks all the boxes, then I want us to sign that player but if not, I don't think it's a good idea to compromise on ball playing ability to sign a CB who will win more aerial duels. Even Arsenal who you mention as a example, it took them finishing 8th, 8th, 5th and then 2nd before they had put the pieces together . I'm not saying we should ignore anything, and I want us to have a team that can deal with every threat once the team building cycle is complete.

And as far as what Amol is saying, I do agree, and you don't necessarily need your CBs to win the aerial duels if you can make up for their short comings from midfield and fullback. The EPL is more demanding (imo) now physically and athletically compared to how it used to be and the calibre of players being recruited in the EPL is also at a high level. Take Brighton as a example, their midfield with Wieffer and Baleba looks physically, athletically, aerially and technically very good.

Please feel free to disagree with me.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to see Martinez at CB for us. It's not necessarily only the size, as he is very athletic to make up for some of that but it is his positioning. There are too many last ditch tackles rather than being in the right place at the right time, and it is also an injury worry playing this way. We had years of Koscielny diving in making spectacular last ditch challenges, it is a crowd pleaser, it's even intimidating, but it's not what you want long term. It can look good during some games, but if you track back your overall defensive performances, Martinez was often in there for some of your poorest ones. I think you could make him into a solid FB.

In the meantime get your prototypical 6.2+ who reads the game very well and mops up....your Rio Ferdinand version 2 is what you need. You need that calmness and reliability. Varane should have been that, but for some reason he has aged badly.

 

[Cassidy]

Honestly, I wouldn't want to see Martinez at CB for us. It's not necessarily only the size, as he is very athletic to make up for some of that but it is his positioning. There are too many last ditch tackles rather than being in the right place at the right time, and it is also an injury worry playing this way. We had years of Koscielny diving in making spectacular last ditch challenges, it is a crowd pleaser, it's even intimidating, but it's not what you want long term. It can look good during some games, but if you track back your overall defensive performances, Martinez was often in there for some of your poorest ones. I think you could make him into a solid FB.

In the meantime get your prototypical 6.2+ who reads the game very well and mops up....your Rio Ferdinand version 2 is what you need. You need that calmness and reliability. Varane should have been that, but for some reason he has aged badly.

His positioning isn't an issue, you find he is diving in mainly due to covering for the dross around him at United and even then he doesn't actually dive in a lot

 

[criticalanalysis]

Honestly, I wouldn't want to see Martinez at CB for us. It's not necessarily only the size, as he is very athletic to make up for some of that but it is his positioning. There are too many last ditch tackles rather than being in the right place at the right time, and it is also an injury worry playing this way. We had years of Koscielny diving in making spectacular last ditch challenges, it is a crowd pleaser, it's even intimidating, but it's not what you want long term. It can look good during some games, but if you track back your overall defensive performances, Martinez was often in there for some of your poorest ones. I think you could make him into a solid FB.

In the meantime get your prototypical 6.2+ who reads the game very well and mops up....your Rio Ferdinand version 2 is what you need. You need that calmness and reliability. Varane should have been that, but for some reason he has aged badly.

I can understand and agree to an extent about the injury worries but the bolded bit is absolutely not true and quite a bizarre summary. The majority of Utd fans would not agree with this and in fact say the opposite. Either you're not watching many Utd games or you've just followed some narrative about him being small/reckless. He's not blameless and has had his own defensive mishaps but when it comes to individual responsibility he ranks very low on the list of 'who's fault was it'. He's often our last bastion defender because he's there reading the play and sweeping up the very last attacking action from the opposition team.

 

[caid]

I can understand and agree to an extent about the injury worries but the bolded bit is absolutely not true and quite a bizarre summary. The majority of Utd fans would not agree with this and in fact say the opposite. Either you're not watching many Utd games or you've just followed some narrative about him being small/reckless. He's not blameless and has had his own defensive mishaps but when it comes to individual responsibility he ranks very low on the list of 'who's fault was it'. He's often our last bastion defender because he's there reading the play and sweeping up the very last attacking action from the opposition team.

Think he's talking about the 6-0, 7-0 pastings we've taken in recent years which Martinez played in a few (if not most) of. So fair question imo.
I wouldn't blame him too much for them or blame him specifically. Half the team didn't show up and were hiding in them matches. The defenders were left for dead in a lot of them. I dont remember him being especially or notably bad but I've tried very hard to forget them so could be wrong.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Think he's talking about the 6-0, 7-0 pastings we've taken in recent years which Martinez played in a few (if not most) of. So fair question imo.
I wouldn't blame him too much for them or blame him specifically. Half the team didn't show up and were hiding in them matches. The defenders were left for dead in a lot of them. I dont remember him being especially or notably bad but I've tried very hard to forget them so could be wrong.

It's a fair question, if the comment was to simply say as a matter of fact 'he played in the games where we had drubbings' but that's not the case, as the poster is claiming Martinez has some fundamental issue and it showed in those games. Like you, I also thought he wasn't individually at fault for most of the goals conceded. Martinez's general positioning isn't an issue and wasn't the root cause of those poor shows or in many other games.

 

[ArtetaInInIn]

Seems to have gone cold with the realization Everton has no intention of doing a discount on their initial valuation.

 

[Vidooq]

Seems to have gone cold with the realization Everton has no intention of doing a discount on their initial valuation.

They never had a good reason for it. We, as United fans can hope, but given that their PSR issues were made to look worse than it should, the outcome is somewhat expected. Unless if the player really starts pushing on his side and kicks a fuss, eve then, I still see us pay more than we should for him.

 

[RuudTom83]

At 22 years old, just finished his first season in the Prem, 3 year left on this contract.

This summer is probably the worst time to try and buy him.

Another year at Everton would answer any questions about his ability and with 2 years remaining you could begin to negotiate a sensible value.

The current 70 million valuation is reaching the absolute limit of a CB, it's close to world record fees for a CB.