Jarrad Branthwaite

Shaw's Shank Redemption said:
Does anyone remember what United Redcafe fans were saying about John Stone before he went to city :lol:

This is reminding me of exactly that!

Number 1 thing - Redcafe fans including me know f all about football.

All these fans calling Stones as this amazing player who was brilliant on the ball are looking at his career backwards because he shut everyone up at City and now have respect for him as an up and coming Everton youngster.

Everyone was calling him overrated and average and many were glad we were not in for him back ten years ago

:rolleyes: :lol:
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It's just classic caf reacting after one game.
 
Malone_Post said:
I actually thought he was younger.

All the traits he already has, awkward and clumsy on the ball, slow to turn, average to poor passer…these won’t suddenly become top class. It was the same when we signed Maguire at 26 and everyone tried to convince themselves he would suddenly iron out all those deficiencies.

Brainthwaite is what he is. A pretty standard British centre back playing for a lower half PL team. Think Tawkowski, Mings, Dawson etc etc He will have a good PL career but not at a top club. He just doesn’t have the technical ability.

As for the Stones comparison above. Apart from the fact they’re both centre backs who happened to play for Everton, they’re nothing alike. Stones is a fantastic footballer, who has regularly played in midfield for City. They’re on a completely different planet technique wise.
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I was making the point about his age because of the comparison with Maguire. The areas that he's worse than Maguire will very likely improve over the next 3 or 4 seasons and may end up as good or better.

Maguire is a good CB with a big drawback when it comes to speed, Branthwaite may not end up that different except that he's left footed and usually there are more available right footed CBs

What made him different last season to Tarkowski, Mings, Dawson etc. is that he was 21 and doing well for that age. He's not doing well this season, is older and we now have a young CB we hope is the future of our defence so a lot less need to look at bringing one in. We might. But probably for less money than we were prepared to pay for Branthwaite and Yoro, unless we make some big sales of our other CBs and find someone we believe in as much as Yoro.



Some of his ball winning and clearances were good, he took a goal well. Nothing special but tall and young English CB
 
Players like this need to be taken out of poor or negative environments and have top tier coaching hardcoded at the earliest possible opportunity. Not necessarily at a top club, but at a club where the coaching is such that they are constantly churning out nurtured, hand-reared talent that will go on to be big deals in their own right in the future; a Brighton being a good example in the PL.

I don't think he's got world beating attributes to be valued how he is and you're paying for a lot of unrealised potential. At those kind of price points, you can and should be scouring the entire world for S-tier talent, and for that reason, you'd hope there's either a massive drop in valuation or we simply look elsewhere.

It looks like people are eager to shit on the player whilst seeing him at his worst or in bad form is actually important to establish a base level and gauge the whole of the player and what work would need to be done rather than only the half of a whole, so I don't mind him making mistakes and not looking stellar. The question, then: is what you see on top and bottom level enough to justify the price? And I'd say that's a firm no.
 
He has been so hotly debated as to not being good enough (128 pages) for a multitude of reasons, so it's not like most fans were convinced of his abilities before this match anyway. Of course, some people will look at the last match and use it as a gotcha, but the price tag and skill level simply do not put him in the ball park of someone like a Yoro aka the level of player we should be targeting.
 
Rojofiam said:
Yes, let's have Martínez and De Ligt get humiliated on every transition instead by any half-decent player. Both of them are way too slow and are a detriment to each other when both are playing.

We literally have one single wide defender in the squad for two positions, and that's a 19 year old kid who hasn't played a single minute for us yet.

Branthwaite can eat up space much faster than either of those two that are playing for us today. His box defending has also improved since becoming a starter at Everton, and just because he isn't Martínez level in possession, that doesn't mean we can't build-up with him at LCB.
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I agree about the pace worries, but that still doesn't mean we should spend 80m on a player of Branthwaite's level. There are a few LCB as good as him if not better, that are/were available for half the price. I'm thinking of Hancko, Hincapie, William Pacho (before he went to PSG), Inacio, maybe Murillo (although unlikely that N.Forest sell him for cheap either).
 
Shaw's Shank Redemption said:
Does anyone remember what United Redcafe fans were saying about John Stone before he went to city :lol:

This is reminding me of exactly that!

Number 1 thing - Redcafe fans including me know f all about football.

All these fans calling Stones as this amazing player who was brilliant on the ball are looking at his career backwards because he shut everyone up at City and now have respect for him as an up and coming Everton youngster.

Everyone was calling him overrated and average and many were glad we were not in for him back ten years ago

:rolleyes: :lol:
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What about Maguire?
 
Fortitude said:
Players like this need to be taken out of poor or negative environments and have top tier coaching hardcoded at the earliest possible opportunity. Not necessarily at a top club, but at a club where the coaching is such that they are constantly churning out nurtured, hand-reared talent that will go on to be big deals in their own right in the future; a Brighton being a good example in the PL.

I don't think he's got world beating attributes to be valued how he is and you're paying for a lot of unrealised potential. At those kind of price points, you can and should be scouring the entire world for S-tier talent, and for that reason, you'd hope there's either a massive drop in valuation or we simply look elsewhere.

It looks like people are eager to shit on the player whilst seeing him at his worst or in bad form is actually important to establish a base level and gauge the whole of the player and what work would need to be done rather than only the half of a whole, so I don't mind him making mistakes and not looking stellar. The question, then: is what you see on top and bottom level enough to justify the price? And I'd say that's a firm no.
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Agreed with this post. Player development at a young age is a massive issue for clubs like Everton. As soon as they show glimpses, it is natural they attract attention from bigger clubs.

As soon as that happens, the clubs slap a 80-100m price tag on the player, which in turn puts pressure on the player. So small mistakes that can happen to most defenders, get blown out of proportion and the narrative is x player is rubbish.

There are various examples of this in the PL, like you mention with Brighton, we have seen Lamptey and more recently, Evan Ferguson suffer the same.

How many players do you think would have been better than what their careers have been because of a inflated transfer fee? Whilst players that are worth more going for relatively low fees always seem to do well.
 
Hammondo said:
What about Maguire?
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Maguire wasnt a young up and coming defender when we went for him.

Maybe my memory is wrong but we bought him following the rise of Leicester City's title win where players like Kante, Mahrez, Drinkwater, Maguire & plenty more became players that were so called ready for the next step up.

Brantwaithe & Stones are similar to me because

A) how little both were valued by United fans
B) how much they were values by Everton fans (with many calling Brantwaithe better than Stones at the same age)
C) the age & the club
D)Potentially how little United fans rated ball playing abilities of a CB back when Stones was gettable - strikes quite a resemblance with United fans now potentially not rating physically dominate defenders as football as a sport is moving on as a generation of inverted forwards to more physically dominant central strikers again for examooe Haaland & Hojlund.
E) This is a personal view by me and i understand that many would disagree but Yoro isnt a Martinez in passing - he is actually quite a physical and tall CB that has the abilities to go down on dangerous tackles like a gigantic vidic. Brantwaithe for me, is the left sided CB of this - for how tall it is, its quite surprising how often he actually gets down on the floor. Maybe im wrong but i will wait to see Yoro more before i change my mind.
 
Shaw's Shank Redemption said:
Maguire wasnt a young up and coming defender when we went for him.

Maybe my memory is wrong but we bought him following the rise of Leicester City's title win where players like Kante, Mahrez, Drinkwater, Maguire & plenty more became players that were so called ready for the next step up.

Brantwaithe & Stones are similar to me because

A) how little both were valued by United fans
B) how much they were values by Everton fans (with many calling Brantwaithe better than Stones at the same age)
C) the age & the club
D)Potentially how little United fans rated ball playing abilities of a CB back when Stones was gettable - strikes quite a resemblance with United fans now potentially not rating physically dominate defenders as football as a sport is moving on as a generation of inverted forwards to more physically dominant central strikers again for examooe Haaland & Hojlund.
E) This is a personal view by me and i understand that many would disagree but Yoro isnt a Martinez in passing - he is actually quite a physical and tall CB that has the abilities to go down on dangerous tackles like a gigantic vidic. Brantwaithe for me, is the left sided CB of this - for how tall it is, its quite surprising how often he actually gets down on the floor. Maybe im wrong but i will wait to see Yoro more before i change my mind.
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Your memory is wrong, we bought him 4 years after they won the pl. He joined them 2 years after they won it.

But Branthwaithe is not good on the ball, he's clumsy and awkward. He's not close to as good as stones on the ball, who himself isn't fantastic.

We do like physical players, but tall strong players who turn poorly are a weakness, you need more athletically complete players like yoro, Branthwaithe is a type English player, big and numb.
 
Who was the donkey in the management who offered 50m for him.. Thank god they rejected.
 
romufc said:
£80m price tag :lol::lol:.. Yep jog on Everton.

I remember Everton fans saying... pay up, and got really upset that United didn't and signed a player twice as good at half the price.
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Amad knocked a couple million off that price tag just in time for a late Black Friday or Cyber Monday 80% off sale.
 
Giggsyking said:
Who was the donkey in the management who offered 50m for him.. Thank god they rejected.
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Somebody who knows far more about football than you, hence their job title.

But obviously the reactionary-caf is all over him.
 
I actually thought first half he wasn't too bad, his passing was quite good and played it through the lines well.

Second half I think match sharpness and fitness caught up to him, I certainly wouldn't write him off just off that one performance after coming back from injury and had his head turned by us in summer.
 
pascell said:
I actually thought first half he wasn't too bad, his passing was quite good and played it through the lines well.

Second half I think match sharpness and fitness caught up to him, I certainly wouldn't write him off just off that one performance after coming back from injury and had his head turned by us in summer.
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I would be very concerned that his match sharpness and fitness failed 40 mins into the match when Amad embarassed him. If this was his first match back after injury then sure, but its his 3rd match back, also he had the international week off.

He has potential, but it may be a fools errand trying to teach him and Yoro at the same time.
 
Shaw's Shank Redemption said:
Does anyone remember what United Redcafe fans were saying about John Stone before he went to city :lol:

This is reminding me of exactly that!

Number 1 thing - Redcafe fans including me know f all about football.

All these fans calling Stones as this amazing player who was brilliant on the ball are looking at his career backwards because he shut everyone up at City and now have respect for him as an up and coming Everton youngster.

Everyone was calling him overrated and average and many were glad we were not in for him back ten years ago

:rolleyes: :lol:
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I don’t remember it like that at all, to be honest. Pretty sure he was viewed as a really good prospect, at the time.
 
UpWithRivers said:
We need Branthwaite's build and speed with Martinez passing and composure on the ball. Not sure who that is. Im a bit baffled as to why our new sporting director etc are so in love with him though. Maybe they know more than us. He is playing for Everton and he's only 22 so maybe his passing is better than it seems. I think when he was on loan at PSV his passing was good.
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Those players are generational and likely not available.

If Amorim does want a LCB, then the player should be Inacio. Probably as good on the ball as Martinez, but a lot better covering the left channel in this system. Would probably cost about 50m.
 
romufc said:
Agreed with this post. Player development at a young age is a massive issue for clubs like Everton. As soon as they show glimpses, it is natural they attract attention from bigger clubs.

As soon as that happens, the clubs slap a 80-100m price tag on the player, which in turn puts pressure on the player. So small mistakes that can happen to most defenders, get blown out of proportion and the narrative is x player is rubbish.

There are various examples of this in the PL, like you mention with Brighton, we have seen Lamptey and more recently, Evan Ferguson suffer the same.

How many players do you think would have been better than what their careers have been because of a inflated transfer fee? Whilst players that are worth more going for relatively low fees always seem to do well.
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It happens a lot and can be very destabilising and destructive for the players and clubs involved and both can suffer really badly in the short-term or until the issue is definitively resolved one way or the other. Unless the player has always been a star turn tipped for the top and constantly linked to and scouted by the big clubs, the sudden uptick in attention and worse, scrutiny (microanalytical swipes) can really upset and spiral their organic development.

I think Branthwaite hasn’t been the same player since the furore over his valuation and us coming in for him. Granted he’s had injuries, but his performance level has tanked and it’s safe to say he’s struggling. His environment is really bad in terms of development and I don’t think he’s ever experienced scrutiny like this in his career - he’s now constantly ridiculed for being the kid Everton want £80m for, and is being assessed as an £80m asset, which is a tough gig unless you’re a young Nesta/Rio type of regen, which he obviously isn’t.
 
Fortitude said:
I think Branthwaite hasn’t been the same player since the furore over his valuation and us coming in for him. Granted he’s had injuries, but his performance level has tanked and it’s safe to say he’s struggling. His environment is really bad in terms of development and I don’t think he’s ever experienced scrutiny like this in his career - he’s now constantly ridiculed for being the kid Everton want £80m for, and is being assessed as an £80m asset, which is a tough gig unless you’re a young Nesta/Rio type of regen, which he obviously isn’t.
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Tbf I wouldn't say that's all because of you coming in for him and the fee we asked for. He's had multiple injuries, both before the season started and during which have meant he didn't have a pre-season and he hasn't really got going yet in terms of consistent game time. He's also came into a side that's playing absolutely shite with a defence under constant pressure, with underperforming players around him in every position. One of the things that helped JB last season was the partnership with Tarkowski but he's been terrible this season too.

It could well be that he just had one excellent season and he will fade into a decent but not top player. That sometimes happens. I don't believe that is the case but I do think I'd be cautious with judging it too early and I'd rather assess him at the end of the season when we have had a manager change and he's (hopefully) been able to play a consistent amount of games with no problems.
 
SilentWitness said:
Tbf I wouldn't say that's all because of you coming in for him and the fee we asked for. He's had multiple injuries, both before the season started and during which have meant he didn't have a pre-season and he hasn't really got going yet in terms of consistent game time. He's also came into a side that's playing absolutely shite with a defence under constant pressure, with underperforming players around him in every position. One of the things that helped JB last season was the partnership with Tarkowski but he's been terrible this season too.

It could well be that he just had one excellent season and he will fade into a decent but not top player. That sometimes happens. I don't believe that is the case but I do think I'd be cautious with judging it too early and I'd rather assess him at the end of the season when we have had a manager change and he's (hopefully) been able to play a consistent amount of games with no problems.
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Yeah, I would certainly say the environment at Everton compounds. It may even be the primary, for sure.
 
Wonder what went on during the summer, if Everton were completely unwilling to sell him and therefore set an obscene fee, or if they simply believed we’d cave in and pay what they asked.
 
Redivy said:
Those players are generational and likely not available.

If Amorim does want a LCB, then the player should be Inacio. Probably as good on the ball as Martinez, but a lot better covering the left channel in this system. Would probably cost about 50m.
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Lukeba fits the bill. Inacio is a Martinez clone not quick but good at passing.
 
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Maybe this is biased because i liked the prospect of having a tank English left footed LCB :

However-

1) I dont think the own goal was much of a problem, from Rashfords angle it looked like it was 100% going in. Id even wonder if Brantwaithe reacting to it whilst everyone else was ball watching Rashfords strike might show his reaction time to things like fast shots.

2) I actually think the goal where he got pressed by Amad was alot to do with the pass back to him by Evertons fullback or midfielder - Brantwaithe received it under pressure and pressure that Amad was already pressing as soon as the ball left the fullbacks backwards slow pass that Brantwaithe had no ability to control under pressure.

3) I think the 3rd goal was actually Brantwaithe's biggest mistake because he got dragged in to midfield too easily with our forwards dropping deep and i thought that was very poor from him as it left the LCB position very open.

Again, maybe im biased but i think alot of these mistakes were mistakes that would still have led to a goal or linked with the rest of his team mates aswell. The 3rd goal was where i was questioning his IQ but still knowing he is a very young CB who just turned 22.

@SilentWitness
 
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UpWithRivers said:
We need Branthwaite's build and speed with Martinez passing and composure on the ball. Not sure who that is. Im a bit baffled as to why our new sporting director etc are so in love with him though. Maybe they know more than us. He is playing for Everton and he's only 22 so maybe his passing is better than it seems. I think when he was on loan at PSV his passing was good.
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I think his profile is right and it seems clear to me Maguire and Lindelof will likely leave this summer but the price is just bonkers. I said in the summer fair deal is about £45m and then you can load it with add ons (if he’s as good as Everton clearly think he is, he’ll but most of them) but he’s raw and will take time to be really good, if he ever gets there at all.
 
I have not watched that much of Everton TBF but I just don't see the fascination with Branthwaite, he is 22 yo so ok he has some good years ahead of him but he is no wonderkid, there are other just as capable if not better and players, probably even more suitable available for much less that Everton seem to want.

I would be happyish around the £35m mark but even then I cannot say I would be overly excited by his arrival.

I am English and do love having at least a few English players in our team, I certainly would not want a team with no English players, but would much rather bring though English players from the academy rather than paying English tax on top of Utd tax.
 
Probably one of the more baffling price tags I think I've seen quoted. Genuinely first off, if he wasn't left footed he would not be linked with United. That is not a great sign. Has there been any other big clubs linked with Brantwaite? Maybe all the other top clubs are sorted at centre back but has any continental club shown interest?
Now I have not seen much of Brantwaite so I cannot in any way determine what his exact skill set is, there must be something there for Everton to value him at €80 million rather than take the €50 million that was offered. But what I did and have seen is that he is rather cumbersome and his control/first touch leaves a lot to be desired. Obviously this was exaggerated in the game against us but the two or three times I have watched him before there were elements of those negatives evident however they were not punished the way they were against us.
At least we've set a precedent that we will not be extorted when it comes to transfer fees, partially because we're broke haha. If we go in for him again in the summer I don't think we need to go above the €50. In fact we could nearly start lower from what I've seen.
 
I like the idea of him - tall, strong, fast and left footed. I can overlook the average ball playing skills but he seems clumsy in one on one’s against tricky wingers / forwards.
 
Tallis said:
I like the idea of him - tall, strong, fast and left footed. I can overlook the average ball playing skills but he seems clumsy in one on one’s against tricky wingers / forwards.
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He's a left footed Maguire? Pass.
 
I'd much rather we went after Inacio at Sporting for a left footed centre back. He's far better in possession.
 
Scholsey2004 said:
I'd much rather we went after Inacio at Sporting for a left footed centre back. He's far better in possession.
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I personally feel like United cant be United without some of the best British talent in its squad.

Its like Barcelona having no Spanish players.

Whether or not Brantwaithe is a great british talent i dont know.

Maybe its the british eyes of Ashworth that was targeting Brantwaithe last year & maybe wanted to keep Rashford too whilst INEOS have different plans hence why he left.

Im open to Brantwaithe coming if Ineos seeing him as a top british talent, if not then lets move on and maybe target someone like Hincapie.

However for me - this whole "ball playing ability" is quite overrated to me personally because a possession based team usually switches the ball across its defensive line and occasionally plays a progressive pass to the midfielders when the space opens.

Sure, a player like Martinez can make a world class pass like the one in to Amad against City - however, i think Martinez has shown me this season why we shouldnt be targeting all our CB's predominantly on their ball playing abilities.

We have 6 CB's and arguably 5 are ball playing CB's, im not sure buying another one is going to make much of a difference to the quality on our defensive play.
 
I hope we don't waste funds on Branthwaite, can't say I have ever been over impressed by him, has the hallmark of being over rated due to being English

If funds are going to be limited as I assume they will given the number of positions we need to reinforce last thing we need is to spunk a huge wad on a CB who is not yet or likely to be world class
 
Please dont sign a player who comes from a team sitting back all the time. That’s where it’s the easiest to defend and look good.

There’s so much we don’t know if he’ll cope with in Amorim’s system.
 
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