[SAFMUTD]

Agree. Loans rarely work imo. The incentive for that club just isn’t there unless it’s a really bad team and they are desperate.

Exactly, generally when it works its because the team loaned a huge prospect player that is almost certain to make it in the premier league, a youngster that is ready to be starting for that team. But when its medium quality players such as Garner, why would they pay up all the mistakes of a youngster instead of playing a consolidated player or a youngster of their own which they will actually keep?

 

[Dante]

Doesn't make sense to me.

United are not the kind of club that holds onto youth players and then lets them rot.

We either loan them out for as long as they want (even with players as old as Lingard or Pereira). Or we sell them without a fuss as soon as they tell us they want to leave (which is why the Premier League and Championship is full of ex-Academy players from United).

There's no reason for Garner to reject a contract. The only possible downside would be if he agrees to a massive salary which would make it difficult for a future club to match his wages. But... you know... he'd still have a massive salary to console himself with. And if he's afraid of that regardless, he could always do something mental like agree to a lower salary to make himself more attainable at a later date.

I don't think there's any downside to him signing an extension under this regime. We're too nice to our kids, if anything. He has nothing to worry about.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

Doesn't make sense to me.

United are not the kind of club that holds onto youth players and then lets them rot.

We either loan them out for as long as they want (even with players as old as Lingard or Pereira). Or we sell them without a fuss as soon as they tell us they want to leave (which is why the Premier League and Championship is full of ex-Academy players from United).

There's no reason for Garner to reject a contract. The only possible downside would be if he agrees to a massive salary which no future buying club would be able to match. But... you know... he'd still have a massive salary to console himself with. And if he's afraid of that regardless, he could always agree to a lower salary to make himself more attainable.

I don't think there's any downside to him signing an extension under this regime. We're too nice to our kids, if anything.

Insightful post and reasonable.

another perspective could be that he believes that he is good enough to start at other teams? That perspective has some defects tough, cause if he manages to perform succesfully and develop through loans, he’d highly likely get a chance to play for his position at United.

 

[wolvored]

Perhaps we are signing Camavinga or someone similar and Garner is thinking he isnt going to be picked. You cant blame him if he has had good reviews at Forest, if he is thinking perhaps I would be better moving on and playing for a side that wants me in the first team.

 

[CG1010]

Doesn't make sense to me.

United are not the kind of club that holds onto youth players and then lets them rot.

We either loan them out for as long as they want (even with players as old as Lingard or Pereira). Or we sell them without a fuss as soon as they tell us they want to leave (which is why the Premier League and Championship is full of ex-Academy players from United).

There's no reason for Garner to reject a contract. The only possible downside would be if he agrees to a massive salary which would make it difficult for a future club to match his wages. But... you know... he'd still have a massive salary to console himself with. And if he's afraid of that regardless, he could always do something mental like agree to a lower salary to make himself more attainable at a later date.

I don't think there's any downside to him signing an extension under this regime. We're too nice to our kids, if anything. He has nothing to worry about.

Agreed. I really don't see what fears one would have in signing a contract.

 

[Adisa]

Signing a contract by definition takes his future out of his hands. If he were my son, I would be advising him against signing. I am also happy more and more young players are taking their future in their hands. Signing a long term deal will limit his options. There's no two ways about that.
We are not really a club that makes space for young players (not saying we should be or can even afford to be). Although we give chances here and there, their pathway is almost entirely based on circumstance with an incredibly small window to perform. Not every young player can be an instant hit.
I think the club should warm to the idea of buy backs. Real Madrid do it very well. At least let the buying club be able to gain from the players development. Loans are bullshit.

 

[meamth]

One thing is for sure now, he is not at the wonderkid level such as Camavinga, Wilshere, Fabregas etc, so it made so much sense for him to move on and establish himself before the age of 25 somewhere.

 

[Tarrou]

Doesn't make sense to me.

United are not the kind of club that holds onto youth players and then lets them rot.

We either loan them out for as long as they want (even with players as old as Lingard or Pereira). Or we sell them without a fuss as soon as they tell us they want to leave (which is why the Premier League and Championship is full of ex-Academy players from United).

There's no reason for Garner to reject a contract. The only possible downside would be if he agrees to a massive salary which would make it difficult for a future club to match his wages. But... you know... he'd still have a massive salary to console himself with. And if he's afraid of that regardless, he could always do something mental like agree to a lower salary to make himself more attainable at a later date.

I don't think there's any downside to him signing an extension under this regime. We're too nice to our kids, if anything. He has nothing to worry about.

There is enormous downside for a young player having no clear route to the first team and facing a couple of years of loans. Especially centre-mid where it's so difficult to break through.

Just look at all the Chelsea youth-players who got stuck in this cycle and their career didn't get going until later.

Loans are hit-and-miss, and often fail.. so you're playing roulette with your career development in half season/full season chunks. A few bad ones and you've lost a couple of years. The loaning club and manager has no real reason to put your own development in front of their own players.

Rejecting a contract is just keeping his options open. If he doesn't see a clear path the first team, then he should look to leave as soon as he can and build a career for himself. Look at the players who are stuck here that we can't shift, like Perreira, with their careers stalled.

United can afford to take as many chances as they like on youth players. If it doesn't work out in 2/3 years they get a small fee and recoup the money invested. For each player they only get one shot, and who can blame them for putting their own career development above all else.

 

[Relevated]

I have completely had a brain shutdown moment and have forgotten, but whos son was it that left football and went into accounting or uni or whatever?

 

[Relevated]

It was David gills son who went into economics

 

[Kostov]

It was David gills son who went into economics

Oliver was it? He was a CB.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Agree. Loans rarely work imo. The incentive for that club just isn’t there unless it’s a really bad team and they are desperate.

Exactly, generally when it works its because the team loaned a huge prospect player that is almost certain to make it in the premier league, a youngster that is ready to be starting for that team. But when its medium quality players such as Garner, why would they pay up all the mistakes of a youngster instead of playing a consolidated player or a youngster of their own which they will actually keep?

Among the many, many (many) players that loans worked are:
Harry Kane, David Beckham, Dean Henderson, Peter Crouch, Adam Lallana, Ashley Cole, Michael Carrick, Romelu Lukaku, etc etc etc etc. Saying loans "rarely work" is mainly because you don't notice the players that do go on loan, but you do notice the players playing at your club. It's not LOANS that rarely work - it's a player with top flight ability that rarely works.

 

[elmo]

Doesn't make sense to me.

United are not the kind of club that holds onto youth players and then lets them rot.

We either loan them out for as long as they want (even with players as old as Lingard or Pereira). Or we sell them without a fuss as soon as they tell us they want to leave (which is why the Premier League and Championship is full of ex-Academy players from United).

There's no reason for Garner to reject a contract. The only possible downside would be if he agrees to a massive salary which would make it difficult for a future club to match his wages. But... you know... he'd still have a massive salary to console himself with. And if he's afraid of that regardless, he could always do something mental like agree to a lower salary to make himself more attainable at a later date.

I don't think there's any downside to him signing an extension under this regime. We're too nice to our kids, if anything. He has nothing to worry about.

Problem with us is that we're just bad at sending players to the correct club on loan that the young players often stagnant and end up with no takers until we get rid of them too late for their career.

 

[stevoc]

Signing a contract by definition takes his future out of his hands. If he were my son, I would be advising him against signing. I am also happy more and more young players are taking their future in their hands. Signing a long term deal will limit his options. There's no two ways about that.
We are not really a club that makes space for young players (not saying we should be or can even afford to be). Although we give chances here and there, their pathway is almost entirely based on circumstance with an incredibly small window to perform. Not every young player can be an instant hit.
I think the club should warm to the idea of buy backs. Real Madrid do it very well. At least let the buying club be able to gain from the players development. Loans are bullshit.

I don't know for certain but I suspect we have more academy players in the first team squad than any other top team and would be amongst the highest in the PL. We have around 10-12 academy graduates in the first team squad not including Pogba.

 

[Drainy]

Signing a contract by definition takes his future out of his hands. If he were my son, I would be advising him against signing. I am also happy more and more young players are taking their future in their hands. Signing a long term deal will limit his options. There's no two ways about that.
We are not really a club that makes space for young players (not saying we should be or can even afford to be). Although we give chances here and there, their pathway is almost entirely based on circumstance with an incredibly small window to perform. Not every young player can be an instant hit.
I think the club should warm to the idea of buy backs. Real Madrid do it very well. At least let the buying club be able to gain from the players development. Loans are bullshit.

Agree with all of that. He's better keeping his future in his own hands since he doesn't seem to be in Ole's immediate plans.

He's far more likely to get fair treatment at a club that has him permanently rather than on loan and a buy back may suit all parties.

 

[Mylock]

In my opinion not signing a new contract at this stage makes sense for Garner, he has a contract for the next 2 seasons. From watching him play for the club and while he's out on loan he looks like a great talent whose deserves a chance this season, Ollie played Pierera ahead of him in preseason and he has no future at the club. How many youth players have established themselves under Ollie management? we still have a lot of deadwood in the squad who should be moved on to create chances for the like of Garner. I have a suspicion that Ollie played Pierera ahead of him to keep his price up so we could get a buyer. Garner won't be last youth player that will not sign a new contract, they want to see light at the end of the tunnel or they'll move on like Gomez.

 

[mu4c_20le]

He's probably not confident about making it here, so rather then going on loan after loan and end up in the same conclusion (getting released), it makes sense to move somewhere where he's hopefully trusted.

 

[Marwood]

Bit of a downer as I've watched him for years now and really rate him.

Having said that if it's true he has upto two years left on existing deal I see no big rush and kind of understand his point of view.

The bigger issue for me is does he have the personality to make it here. Seems a bit shy and tentative in his chances so far.

James....next chance you get, pick their biggest player and clatter him. Get your chest out. Get the fans on board. Then let your talent do its thing.

 

[FrankDrebin]

He did quite alot of clattering against Brentford to be fair.

 

[acnumber9]

I’d be surprised if he’s ever anything more than Championship player. I just don’t see it with him.

 

[elmo]

I don't know for certain but I suspect we have more academy players in the first team squad than any other top team and would be amongst the highest in the PL. We have around 10-12 academy graduates in the first team squad not including Pogba.

Realistically only 4-5 of our academy graduates are actually getting meaningful minutes. The rest of them aren't actually playing anything beyond meaningless cup ties.

 

[stevoc]

Realistically only 4-5 of our academy graduates are actually getting meaningful minutes. The rest of them aren't actually playing anything beyond meaningless cup ties.

How many are getting meaningful minutes at other top clubs in England though?

 

[Tom Cato]

Signing a contract by definition takes his future out of his hands. If he were my son, I would be advising him against signing. I am also happy more and more young players are taking their future in their hands. Signing a long term deal will limit his options. There's no two ways about that.
We are not really a club that makes space for young players (not saying we should be or can even afford to be). Although we give chances here and there, their pathway is almost entirely based on circumstance with an incredibly small window to perform. Not every young player can be an instant hit.
I think the club should warm to the idea of buy backs. Real Madrid do it very well. At least let the buying club be able to gain from the players development. Loans are bullshit.

The safety net of being a player in the Manchster United senior team setup is huge though. What Garner is doing is gambling that he will develop by himself at a lower league club and eventually be bought back by a larger club, assuming he has aspirations to climb to the top. The difference between signing a long term deal with Manchester United is just so different than signing with Wycombe.

Not signing a contract just doesn't make any sense to me. The player already has a solid say in where he will go on loan. The only difference between a loan and a transfer is that he's "stuck" in the loan (now permanent) club and he is effectively on his own.

The only reason that makes a lot of sense is if there is no pathway to the first team here, AND he is skilled enough to guarantee a solid career. The first one is up for question, the second one is up for question. The club has spent a great deal of resource on Garner to help develop him since he came into the system. The option of a buyback means that the club actively forfeits control of development and a potential extremly valuable asset.

Now, it obviously worked out for a player like Jadon Sancho, but he went to a club that could guarantee him CL football. A lower tier club in the English system can't do that. Either way, he'll be contracted somewhere, United, Forest, Hull.

If he believes that he's better suited developing in the lower leagues and carve his own career from down there, that is all well and good, but that is a massive risk to take.

 

[VanDeBank]

In my opinion not signing a new contract at this stage makes sense for Garner, he has a contract for the next 2 seasons. From watching him play for the club and while he's out on loan he looks like a great talent whose deserves a chance this season, Ollie played Pierera ahead of him in preseason and he has no future at the club. How many youth players have established themselves under Ollie management? we still have a lot of deadwood in the squad who should be moved on to create chances for the like of Garner. I have a suspicion that Ollie played Pierera ahead of him to keep his price up so we could get a buyer. Garner won't be last youth player that will not sign a new contract, they want to see light at the end of the tunnel or they'll move on like Gomez.

Misinformed post. Ole played Garner in every pre season match.

 

[Mickson]

Misinformed post. Ole played Garner in every pre season match.

He preferred Pereira to Garner in pre-season, which is pretty much what the OP said. Pereira played more.

 

[Bastian]

He preferred Pereira to Garner in pre-season, which is pretty much what the OP said. Pereira played more.

Could be the case, or he could simply be using the shop window. We saw the approach he took with Greenwood, which was one of the best things he's done at the club. If Pereira goes on loan with an obligation to buy it won't do Garner's chances any harm.

 

[Mickson]

Could be the case, or he could simply be using the shop window. We saw the approach he took with Greenwood, which was one of the best things he's done at the club. If Pereira goes on loan with an obligation to buy it won't do Garner's chances any harm.

That would be great if we could sell Pereira.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Garner might turn out good, he's a great talent but something from him to become a senior footballer is missing now, not everyone can transfer youth performances to adult game so smoothly, it might take him few more years than expected and he may come back form a different club.

Shame that all Levitt, Garner and Galbraith looked very promising but it might turn out that none of them will make it. I think Mejbri will, he already looks up for it in adult game, everysingle one of them look very shy, unlike Hannibalfull of confidence and close to mens phisique and drive.

But let's not call Garner next Ben Pearson yet and see how that turns out..

 

[Bastian]

Garner might turn out good, he's a great talent but something from him to become a senior footballer is missing now, not everyone can transfer youth performances to adult game so smoothly, it might take him few more years than expected and he may come back form a different club.

Shame that all Levitt, Garner and Galbraith looked very promising but it might turn out that none of them will make it. I think Mejbri will, he already looks up for it in adult game, everysingle one of them look very shy, unlike Hannibalfull of confidence and close to mens phisique and drive.

But let's not call Garner next Ben Pearson yet and see how that turns out..

He was Forest's best player last season. He'll most definitely make it in the game, just whether or not he'll do so at United. To be given a chance constitutes a run of games. Fred was given a season and a half to make it here. I think we can afford 5-6 games to Garner (assuming we do not buy any midfielder this summer) to see how he takes to it.

 

[Mylock]

Misinformed post. Ole played Garner in every pre season match.

Actually Peirrea played far more minutes in the preseason games than Garner.

 

[RedSky]

In my opinion not signing a new contract at this stage makes sense for Garner, he has a contract for the next 2 seasons. From watching him play for the club and while he's out on loan he looks like a great talent whose deserves a chance this season, Ollie played Pierera ahead of him in preseason and he has no future at the club. How many youth players have established themselves under Ollie management? we still have a lot of deadwood in the squad who should be moved on to create chances for the like of Garner. I have a suspicion that Ollie played Pierera ahead of him to keep his price up so we could get a buyer. Garner won't be last youth player that will not sign a new contract, they want to see light at the end of the tunnel or they'll move on like Gomez.

Not on Ole. Blame the board ultimately as Ole isn't responsible for finding buyers and negotiating sales.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Can somebody explain what they see in him that we haven't seen in pre-season/Utd appearances?

Nothing I have seen from him stands out. Touch, turn on the ball, technique, vision, ball carrying, reading over his shoulder, physical attributes etc all look very average to me.

 

[passing-wind]

Rashford, Tuanzebe, Greenwood, McTominay?

Those are players who had opportunities under previous managers not Solskjaer. If the club lose Gomes / Garner it's a good signification about Ole's ability to bring youth through. I think due to Solskjaer's lack of pedigree as a manager the club need top signings to excel and losing a few prospects along the way is somewhat justifiable if the team wins anything of note.

 

[tjb]

Those are players who had opportunities under previous managers not Solskjaer. If the club lose Gomes / Garner it's a good signification about Ole's ability to bring youth through. I think due to Solskjaer's lack of pedigree as a manager the club need top signings to excel and losing a few prospects along the way is somewhat justifiable if the team wins anything of note.

That's nonsense. Greenwood was Ole's. Williams. Mctominay starting more regularly was him too. That's 3. Unless you want t youngsters coming through 3 years like mid table arsenal.

 

[Flying_Heckfish]

Perhaps we are signing Camavinga or someone similar and Garner is thinking he isnt going to be picked. You cant blame him if he has had good reviews at Forest, if he is thinking perhaps I would be better moving on and playing for a side that wants me in the first team.

I think it's around this sort of thinking.

He's not good enough for the United first team, but the other option on the table is another Championship loan - and he has proved everything he needs to at that level.

Maybe someone would buy him at top Champ level/lower PL level, and he thinks that's a better option. Fair enough if so.

 

[Yagami]

Can somebody explain what they see in him that we haven't seen in pre-season/Utd appearances?

Nothing I have seen from him stands out. Touch, turn on the ball, technique, vision, ball carrying, reading over his shoulder, physical attributes etc all look very average to me.

I've never got the hype. Even watching him for our youth teams I thought he looked average. I really don't get how he got the hype he got.

Galbraith and Mejbri are our only two central midfielders who look to have the potential to make it here, imo.

 

[sillwuka]

Garner has been hyped up so much, I've heard before on here about him running the midfield and displacing McFred, he's nowhere near that level.

 

[Raven]

Garner has been hyped up so much, I've heard before on here about him running the midfield and displacing McFred, he's nowhere near that level.

I don't think many were saying it would happen this season. He is the profile of midfielder that I think we're crying out for though and I still feel he's a big talent.

 

[VanDeBank]

He preferred Pereira to Garner in pre-season, which is pretty much what the OP said. Pereira played more.

Actually Peirrea played far more minutes in the preseason games than Garner.

Garner played 25min less than Pereira in preseason... Let's not pretend Pereira is the reason he's not getting "chances", which is pretty much what OP said. Both Elanga and Pereira got 62min against Brentford because they played well. Garner featured a half in 3 games and 28m vs Brentford, he didn't exactly impress (Levitt played better).

"Ole played Pereira ahead of him in preseason and he has no future here".

 

[Mickson]

Garner played 25min less than Pereira in preseason... Let's not pretend Pereira is the reason he's not getting "chances", which is pretty much what OP said. Both Elanga and Pereira got 62min against Brentford because they played well. Garner featured a half in 3 games and 28m vs Brentford, he didn't exactly impress (Levitt played better).

"Ole played Pereira ahead of him in preseason and he has no future here".

Well, if Pereira weren't there, he would by definition play more, no?