Spain did objectively better (reaching further stages) than Germany at the last three major tournaments, World Cup 2018, Euro 2020 and World Cup 2022 plus they already did better in this tournament, so make it last four major tournaments. For more than last 6 years Spain is comfortably ahead of Germany in the FIFA ranking, Spain were bookies favourites ahead of the yesterday's game despite Germany playing at home, and the recent head-to-head stats are also slightly in Spain's favour. So I don't know how many objective measures you need, but at least over the last five years Spain are an objectively better team.I don't think you're using the word "objectively" correctly
Jamal Musiala
- Thread starter Sean_RedDevil
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He didn't say 'Spain was objectively a better team in the last five years', he said "Spain is objectively the better team".
Every objective metric except, uh, goals
Moreover, I think most would agree that Spain have been the best team at this tournament so far, and better than Germany. Doesn't necessarily mean that they will go to win it, of course.
Wrong, I also referenced that they've had more recent success under this manager, speaking of course of the win last year (whatever you think of that tournament).
I don't think they have better players, they certainly weren't the better team the other day, and they especially didn't have a better manager - arguably that was why they weren't the better team
Musiala played out exactly as expected (see last post). The kid has the potential to be something very special if and when he puts his game together, but for now it’s a clear case of the aesthetic winning over substance.
Put him up against fodder and he’ll look like one of the best players in the world. Play him against very good opponents and more often than not, he’ll look like potential rather than anything like the finished article, or anything like he does against aforementioned fodder.
If his development is progressive and he has the appetite and aptitude, he is highly likely to be one of the best in the world and a regular ballon interest, but he’s nowhere near that for now.
Güler, Bellingham and Wirtz are all more effective and incisive in the here and now. Whether that is the case a few years down the line remains to be seen.
Put him up against fodder and he’ll look like one of the best players in the world. Play him against very good opponents and more often than not, he’ll look like potential rather than anything like the finished article, or anything like he does against aforementioned fodder.
If his development is progressive and he has the appetite and aptitude, he is highly likely to be one of the best in the world and a regular ballon interest, but he’s nowhere near that for now.
Güler, Bellingham and Wirtz are all more effective and incisive in the here and now. Whether that is the case a few years down the line remains to be seen.
Reading through the last few pages and watching the Bundesliga Defence League argue with each other is quite something.
He actually gets far less stick than Bellingham and Højlund, and people think nothing of that, it’s odd how much people rip younger players to shreds.
I think currently Wirtz is more effective than Musiala when they both play, whether that is reflective of talent, discipline or football intelligence/instinct is another matter. One thing is certain they both have all the talent and if they can both be coached to perform optimally for the team then Germany have a big dual threat.
Are there any other prospects coming through for Germany? The current squad will never win anything and quite a lot of them are towards the end of their international career cycle. They need a refresh and wondering if the quality is there?
He actually gets far less stick than Bellingham and Højlund, and people think nothing of that, it’s odd how much people rip younger players to shreds.
I think currently Wirtz is more effective than Musiala when they both play, whether that is reflective of talent, discipline or football intelligence/instinct is another matter. One thing is certain they both have all the talent and if they can both be coached to perform optimally for the team then Germany have a big dual threat.
Are there any other prospects coming through for Germany? The current squad will never win anything and quite a lot of them are towards the end of their international career cycle. They need a refresh and wondering if the quality is there?
France are objectively shithousing that semi final anyway mate.Every objective metric except, uh, goals
Moreover, I think most would agree that Spain have been the best team at this tournament so far, and better than Germany. Doesn't necessarily mean that they will go to win it, of course.
Brajan Gruda is a great talent and would be my dream signing for this summer window. Then there is also Pavlovic who had a break through season for Bayern and only missed out on the EC because of an injury. Thiaw is a big CB talent who recently lost his starting spot for Milan. Maxi Beier who didn't really play this EC could become an option as a striker but he's not really a target man either. Ouedrago was just signed by Bayern before the tournament and could be a future CM prospect. Can Uzun unfortunately chose Turkey but he could be the next big Bundesliga product coming through besides Gruda. Those aside, I don't really see anyone with the potential to be a starter for Germany. Adeyemi at Dortmund maybe as well but he'll have it difficult and has many injury problems. Jury's still out on Moukoko as well who is clearly very talented but waiting for his break through season.
With Didier Deschamps at the helm, that's a virtual certainty.
Gruda does look a great, albeit still raw, talent. For Pavlovic, I understand people are clinging onto hope for a new Kroos but I honestly don't see the potential right now. People are quoting his pass completion rates but that removes the context that a lot of them are safer passes that don't necessarily create chances. He doesn't have the creativity in his passing that I would want from a number 8, while he will retain possession well you'd be very dependent on others to create chances and play incisive passes.
Thiaw and Beier seem like decent talents, I honestly haven't seen a lot of Thiaw but have tried to follow him at Milan where, as you mentioned, he's lost is starting spot. There's also Bisseck at Inter and Bella-Kotchup who barely played at PSV due to injuries. Beier, I don't have high hopes for, he seems very clumsy in possession and is a worse version of Schurrle at Mainz. Don't get me started on Adeyemi and Moukoko, I've never seen the talent they've been hyped up about and don't think they'll amount to anything more than midtable BL starters. I have a bit more hope for Moukoko than Adeyemi but neither I would say are going to be saviours for our team.
Ouedrago I think went to Leipzig in the end, might actually be better since he'll get more playing time.
In the end, I don't have much hopes going forward in terms of talent. The 2009 generation (Neuer, Howedes, Hummels, Boateng, Kroos, Khedira, Muller, Ozil) was truly a golden generation but the big miss was the next generation. A huge group of talented players who, for some, either lacked the work ethic to fulfill their potential (Draxler, Brandt, Sane), made bad decisions by sticking around middling clubs rather than taking the jump to a bigger club (Tah), had their development stunted by injuries (Goretzka, Gotze, Sule) or just didn't turn out to be as good as initially thought (Henrichs, Leno, Werner, Ginter, Meyer). I still look back at the summer of 2017 when we won the Confed cup, beating full strength teams like Chile, Cameroon and Mexico, with our U-21 team and our second string U-21 team won the Euro championships (beating a very strong Spain team with Saul, Kepa, Ceballos, Ascensio, Rodri etc). Some ofcourse did either fulfill their potential or become better players, like Gnabry, Kimmich, Ter Stegen and Rudiger but those alone could not carry the team and we had to continue to rely on the older players.
That group was supposed to take over from the previous generation that won us the World Cup but none of those players fulfilled their talent. Just going through the names makes me annoyed to think how talented they were when they broke through to how they are now. I don't really see the same talent in this next group but you can hope they have more mental strength to become better players.
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Just because one team has better stats than another (or 'eye-test' plays better) in a one off game, it doesn't make the former a better team. Especially when a large part of their strategy is to kick the other team. And they lose.
Spain have beaten Germany. They've scored the same number of goals in the tournament and conceded less. And they're not playing at home Those are the facts. What happens if Spain go on to win the tournament in sparkling fashion (by no means a given). Will they be better than Germany then or nah?
Spain lucked their way into an undeserved win over Germany. Which team is better on the whole is irrelevant, and pretty much impossible to prove anyways since it's a 7 games tournament with 4 KO games
Spain won, that's all that matters
Spain won, that's all that matters
What’s the story with him going in to the final year of his contract in the summer. I’ve seen him linked to Real and City, but you would think if he isn’t signing a new contract then Bayern would need to sell this summer.
I don’t see where or how Real fit him in. So doesn’t seem like an ideal move given how much he would cost. Then there is City who will hopefully be playing in the championship. Would he want to move there to play a season in the championship and will they even be able to afford it ?
I suppose there is always PSG or a return to Chelsea or just stay at Bayern. Maybe fancies a trip up North.
I don’t see where or how Real fit him in. So doesn’t seem like an ideal move given how much he would cost. Then there is City who will hopefully be playing in the championship. Would he want to move there to play a season in the championship and will they even be able to afford it ?
I suppose there is always PSG or a return to Chelsea or just stay at Bayern. Maybe fancies a trip up North.
He will be staying and it will be a very nice contract for him.
If he makes it clear that he won't extend his contract, thdy will have to push for a sale in 2025. That said, this is a big 'if'. He's a highly appreciated starter at a top club at 21, the first name on the team sheet for Germany for Nagelslmann as it seems and a rising star. Leaving Bayern now would be a somewhat unnecessary risk so I guess it's negotiation tactics he hasn't extended yet. If City really is relegated, they will have no chance. If not, they have a chance but my money is on a contract extension.
Recently, there have been quite a few rumours that City plan a 'double-raid' on the Bundesliga this summer, trying to sign both Musiala and Wirtz. If Musiala really refuses to extend his contract and City is willing to pay €250-€300m plus €40-50m p. a. in salaries, this isn't completely impossible.
I expect Musiala to stay and Wirtz to follow Alonso to Madrid, though.
Musiala will do a Thomas Mueller at Bayern.