Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

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Rajat Jain said:
I think you should be made the director of football at United you seem to have a plan in place obviously. Just blame everyone even if the last 4 signings (okay just remove James here) have been far more consistent and well performing than we have made after Sir Alex. Ole knows what he wants, respect that and try to keep personal emotions in check.

Apologies if what I am saying is coming out as heresy or strongly but sometimes blaming without looking at current situation is not the best option.
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So if a fan criticises then they should be director of football.... right.

Anyway we spent 80m on a CB last summer and still need a CB. We waited till the end of the window to do it so he couldn't have a preseason.

We spent 50m on a RB and want to play out from the back but our 50m RB isnt comfortable enough on the ball and is a target for the press.

We didn't sign Bruno in the summer window and briefed that his passing wasn't up to scratch. Then in the Jan window we again waited to the end of the window to pull the trigger and he missed important games.

Less said about Daniel James the better.

So I do not believe our last 4 signings were fine or that there has been improvement in our ability to negotiate and finalise deals. So I will criticise the club for saying it would hire a DOF over 2 years ago and yet they have not done so thus far.

Maybe you think fans shouldn't criticise The club, thats where me and you are different.

If the club want to hire me as DOF fine, of course I would criticise them for doing so since I do not have the credentials or experience. Two other people who dont are Ed Woodward and Matt Judge
 
I still don't understand why United are not putting in a concrete bid for Sancho. I really don't understand their negotiating strategy. You can't just go to a club and say "We want your player but your price is too high", but you make no offer based on your own valuation of the player. Unless the strategy is to nudge Sancho into throwing toys out of the pram, which is a huge gamble if the player doesn't buy into it.
 
Che Guevara said:
I still don't understand why United are not putting in a concrete bid for Sancho. I really don't understand their negotiating strategy. You can't just go to a club and say "We want your player but your price is too high", but you make no offer based on your own valuation of the player. Unless the strategy is to nudge Sancho into throwing toys out of the pram, which is a huge gamble if the player doesn't buy into it.
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Could be because United is waiting to sell some players and could also be because United is waiting until Chelsea wrapped up Havertz so they can give good reason to Dortmund that Sancho's price shouldn't be too far from Chelsea's offer to Havertz. Big transfer takes time when it comes to United, same cases to Maguire & Bruno.
 
Che Guevara said:
I still don't understand why United are not putting in a concrete bid for Sancho. I really don't understand their negotiating strategy. You can't just go to a club and say "We want your player but your price is too high", but you make no offer based on your own valuation of the player. Unless the strategy is to nudge Sancho into throwing toys out of the pram, which is a huge gamble if the player doesn't buy into it.
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What's even more embarrassing is Sancho is already on a pandemic bundle he's only 20 million more than Maguire ! Dortmund sold Dembele for a much higher fee despite not impacting the Dortmund team to the same extent as Jadon. I don't understand why we are fooling around, oh yes I do it's Woodward leading the charge.
 
passing-wind said:
What's even more embarrassing is Sancho is already on a pandemic bundle he's only 20 million more than Maguire ! Dortmund sold Dembele for a much higher fee despite not impacting the Dortmund team to the same extent as Jadon. I don't understand why we are fooling around, oh yes I do it's Woodward leading the charge.
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I think somethings causing the pause in negotiations, could be us trying to raise funds though player sales.

Dortmund are quite adamant about the price, perhaps we are trying to achieve it.
 
Sandikan said:
In a year with next to no attendances, and clubs losing big wad cash?
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Judas said:
I'd expect next summer to be even more impacted by covid than this one if anything.
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If next summer is even more damaging than this summer (which looking how the outbreaks are spiking again with limited easing is very possible) then no doubt there will be even less transfer activity and less money on transfers than this summer.

If that is the case which at this moment in time everyone will be expecting it to be, then surely this gives even more weight to the fact that Dortmund will be willing to accept any reasonable offer even with instalments right now. Why would they risk a very likely situation where there is less cash available next season?

If the greater likelihood is more financial problems for everyone next summer, then they would be stupid not to sell right now?

I’m not actually leaning towards either view at the moment. Just thinking out loud. The muppet inside me is trying to justify the idea this deal needs to get done now.

If Dortmund are expecting to get the same price or more next summer, then they must have a hell of a lot of conviction that grounds will be to full capacity very soon. Even if grounds were only half full from now till end of season, that would still be very crippling to the finances in football.
 
passing-wind said:
What's even more embarrassing is Sancho is already on a pandemic bundle he's only 20 million more than Maguire ! Dortmund sold Dembele for a much higher fee despite not impacting the Dortmund team to the same extent as Jadon. I don't understand why we are fooling around, oh yes I do it's Woodward leading the charge.
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Barcelona wanted the player and paid. They paid Dortmund 140m for Dembele and thats a year after Pogba was valued at 100m. And here we are fecking about when they are asking for 120m for the world's best young player. Typical.
 
Che Guevara said:
I still don't understand why United are not putting in a concrete bid for Sancho. I really don't understand their negotiating strategy. You can't just go to a club and say "We want your player but your price is too high", but you make no offer based on your own valuation of the player. Unless the strategy is to nudge Sancho into throwing toys out of the pram, which is a huge gamble if the player doesn't buy into it.
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I think its because they are negotiating with intermediaries. So technically speaking no bids have been directly made between the two clubs.
 
spottieottiedopaliscious said:
I think its because they are negotiating with intermediaries. So technically speaking no bids have been directly made between the two clubs.
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Yes I agree with this. As we are dealing with middle men, we probably won’t put an “official bid” in until we know it’s one that will potentially be accepted.

In the meantime the discussions with the intermediaries would have included some unofficial bids but they have probably told us it won’t be accepted after discussing with Dortmund what their stance is.

I don’t believe we’ve not put forward some offers yet. I’m sure we have but we have been told it’s not meeting their criteria.
 
Chief123 said:
Yes I agree with this. As we are dealing with middle men, we probably won’t put an “official bid” in until we know it’s one that will potentially be accepted.

In the meantime the discussions with the intermediaries would have included some unofficial bids but they have probably told us it won’t be accepted after discussing with Dortmund what their stance is.

I don’t believe we’ve not put forward some offers yet. I’m sure we have but we have been told it’s not meeting their criteria.
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That's what I am hoping as well but in the end we will never really know what's really happening. Someone should do a well done / researched special about how these kind of big money deals really go down. Would be great info and insight into something that has all of us on the edge.

Hope we get it done!
 
spottieottiedopaliscious said:
I think its because they are negotiating with intermediaries. So technically speaking no bids have been directly made between the two clubs.
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But we know BD's asking price and not United's offer, even assuming both are acting thru intermediaries, and that doesn't help United's case. The only way to put pressure on BD is by showing that United made a reasonable offer and BD are being unreasonable in rejecting it outright or not using it as a basis for negotiations. The narrative in the public domain right now is that United have made absolutely no offer beyond just rejecting BD's valuation. United can always make a basic offer and throw in a whole bunch of very demanding add-ons.
 
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UnofficialDevil said:
Barcelona wanted the player and paid. They paid Dortmund 140m for Dembele and thats a year after Pogba was valued at 100m.
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And how did that deal work out for Barca? Dembele was the hot young player that summer and one of the cafs “dream” targets for our RW.

That deal is one of the reasons Barca are in so much financial strife atm, even without Covid.
 
Che Guevara said:
I still don't understand why United are not putting in a concrete bid for Sancho. I really don't understand their negotiating strategy. You can't just go to a club and say "We want your player but your price is too high", but you make no offer based on your own valuation of the player. Unless the strategy is to nudge Sancho into throwing toys out of the pram, which is a huge gamble if the player doesn't buy into it.
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or just maybe it was all made up by the media...United and OGS were just interested but would rather move Bruno and Paul up the pitch with a Diamond type midfield...Bruno and Paul have been wasted having to play so deep at times. especially Paul. Build around Bruno and Paul..move them up..Sando would not fit!
 
K_Ash said:
or just maybe it was all made up by the media...United and OGS were just interested but would rather move Bruno and Paul up the pitch with a Diamond type midfield...Bruno and Paul have been wasted having to play so deep at times. especially Paul. Build around Bruno and Paul..move them up..Sando would not fit!
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Nope
 
K_Ash said:
or just maybe it was all made up by the media...United and OGS were just interested but would rather move Bruno and Paul up the pitch with a Diamond type midfield...Bruno and Paul have been wasted having to play so deep at times. especially Paul. Build around Bruno and Paul..move them up..Sando would not fit!
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Nah - far too many journalists had been briefed that Sancho was our main target this summer, I don't think there's any doubt that we want him. The issue is that we appear to have expected Dortmund to accept a lower offer due to the impacts of covid-19 on the football economy, and Dortmund (quite reasonably) have told us to pay their asking price, or bugger off. Equally reasonably, we appear to have decided (for now) that in this market, Sancho isn't worth (or is too great a risk to pay) what Dortmund want, so we've pulled back.
 
SecondFig said:
Nah - far too many journalists had been briefed that Sancho was our main target this summer, I don't think there's any doubt that we want him. The issue is that we appear to have expected Dortmund to accept a lower offer due to the impacts of covid-19 on the football economy, and Dortmund (quite reasonably) have told us to pay their asking price, or bugger off. Equally reasonably, we appear to have decided (for now) that in this market, Sancho isn't worth (or is too great a risk to pay) what Dortmund want, so we've pulled back.
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I'd have to agree, this seems to be the case
 
Che Guevara said:
I still don't understand why United are not putting in a concrete bid for Sancho. I really don't understand their negotiating strategy. You can't just go to a club and say "We want your player but your price is too high", but you make no offer based on your own valuation of the player. Unless the strategy is to nudge Sancho into throwing toys out of the pram, which is a huge gamble if the player doesn't buy into it.
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If there is a big difference between United's valuation and the terms of payment, it would be pointless putting a bid in. Dortmund isn't going to be saying, "oh well at least they put a bid in. They should now get first dibs on the player."

If anything, it could backfire spectacularly. If the bid isn't seen to be high enough, you risk alienating the player. You also reveal how much you are prepared to pay which could affect future negotiations.
 
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SecondFig said:
Nah - far too many journalists had been briefed that Sancho was our main target this summer, I don't think there's any doubt that we want him. The issue is that we appear to have expected Dortmund to accept a lower offer due to the impacts of covid-19 on the football economy, and Dortmund (quite reasonably) have told us to pay their asking price, or bugger off. Equally reasonably, we appear to have decided (for now) that in this market, Sancho isn't worth (or is too great a risk to pay) what Dortmund want, so we've pulled back.
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Agree with all of that. And so in that context, the only thing Woodward can be ‘accused’ of is being abit naive that BVB would lower their demands because of COVID-19. But then again, if you never ask, you’d never know.

So in this specific transfer, I’m not sure what else the club can do or why they should take any flak for it.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
That’s not the point though is it?
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It kind of is. Barcelona are royally screwed as a business because their previous investments and wages on players like Dembele and Couthino have not delivered the expected financial returns.

Whether you like it or not, football clubs are run as businesses. And it’s virtually impossible right now to project future expected income over next 3-24 months. Spending £100m on one player on that context needs to be considered 100 times before going ahead.

Sancho investment would require the club to deliver a certain amount of incremental revenue through prize money and sponsorships for it to pay off. If clubs fails to deliver those, because of a Covid-19 reduced football economy, the club would face serious cash flow issues and perhaps even go bankrupt.

from what I understand about the clubs income and balance sheet, I wouldn’t go ahead with it: Advertising industry and Big company marketing spend is down 40% since COVID-19: What if the bottom falls out of the sponsorship market or sky TV ad revenue during football games? What if fans get fed up watching crowdless and atmosphere less football on TV? What if they don’t let fans back in stadium until a vaccine is consumed by every person? What if takes 18 months to get upto full stadium capacity? Many more risk scenarios. How the heck do you plan your finances with so much uncertainty?

MUFC were burning £25m per month with no income during lockdown. I repeat it’s over £100m!!!! A record British transfer!!! which Club could alternatively bank for now and use to pay staff and keep the lights on in case any of those scenarios play out.
 
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sammsky1 said:
Agree with all of that. And so in that context, the only thing Woodward can be ‘accused’ of is being abit naive that BVB would lower their demands because of COVID-19. But then again, if you never ask, you’d never know.

So in this specific transfer, I’m not sure what else the club can do or why they should take any flak for it.
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Seems like its just the usual accusations (possibly untrue) of Woodward et al being a bit naive and clumsy in our dealings with Dortmund and their intermediaries. But, that aside, I think we're right to balk at paying 120m in this economic climate. And if that means not getting Sancho, fine. And if that means getting him for 90m in a month's time, great.
 
sammsky1 said:
It kind of is. Barcelona are royally screwed as a business because their previous investments and wages on players like Dembele and Couthino have not delivered the expected financial returns.

Whether you like it or not, football clubs are run as businesses. And it’s virtually impossible right now to project future expected income over next 3-24 months. Spending £100m on one player on that context needs to be considered 100 times before going ahead.

Sancho investment would require the club to deliver a certain amount of incremental revenue through prize money and sponsorships for it to pay off. If clubs fails to deliver those, because of a Covid-19 reduced football economy, the club would face serious cash flow issues and perhaps even go bankrupt.

from what I understand about the clubs income and balance sheet, I wouldn’t go ahead with it: Advertising industry and Big company marketing spend is down 40% since COVID-19: What if the bottom falls out of the sponsorship market or sky TV ad revenue during football games? What if fans get fed up watching crowdless and atmosphere less football on TV? What if they don’t let fans back in stadium until a vaccine is consumed by every person? What if takes 18 months to get upto full stadium capacity? Many more risk scenarios. How the heck do you plan your finances with so much uncertainty?

MUFC were burning £25m per month with no income during lockdown. I repeat it’s over £100m!!!! A record British transfer!!! which Club could alternatively bank for now and use to pay staff and keep the lights on in case any of those scenarios play out.
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Good post.
 
I think the reality is that we aren't that rich as a club. Having to account to shareholders makes it difficult to justify taking risks especially in a pandemic. We need someone to buy the club and take it private if we want to buy with impunity, FFP being satisfied of course.
 
sammsky1 said:
It kind of is. Barcelona are royally screwed as a business because their previous investments and wages on players like Dembele and Couthino have not delivered the expected financial returns.

Whether you like it or not, football clubs are run as businesses. And it’s virtually impossible right now to project future expected income over next 3-24 months. Spending £100m on one player on that context needs to be considered 100 times before going ahead.

Sancho investment would require the club to deliver a certain amount of incremental revenue through prize money and sponsorships for it to pay off. If clubs fails to deliver those, because of a Covid-19 reduced football economy, the club would face serious cash flow issues and perhaps even go bankrupt.

from what I understand about the clubs income and balance sheet, I wouldn’t go ahead with it: Advertising industry and Big company marketing spend is down 40% since COVID-19: What if the bottom falls out of the sponsorship market or sky TV ad revenue during football games? What if fans get fed up watching crowdless and atmosphere less football on TV? What if they don’t let fans back in stadium until a vaccine is consumed by every person? What if takes 18 months to get upto full stadium capacity? Many more risk scenarios. How the heck do you plan your finances with so much uncertainty?

MUFC were burning £25m per month with no income during lockdown. I repeat it’s over £100m!!!! A record British transfer!!! which Club could alternatively bank for now and use to pay staff and keep the lights on in case any of those scenarios play out.
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I agree. Also, the richer the club the greater the monthly expenditure. Bigger stadium, more staff, higher wages.
 
Chief123 said:
If next summer is even more damaging than this summer (which looking how the outbreaks are spiking again with limited easing is very possible) then no doubt there will be even less transfer activity and less money on transfers than this summer.

If that is the case which at this moment in time everyone will be expecting it to be, then surely this gives even more weight to the fact that Dortmund will be willing to accept any reasonable offer even with instalments right now. Why would they risk a very likely situation where there is less cash available next season?

If the greater likelihood is more financial problems for everyone next summer, then they would be stupid not to sell right now?

I’m not actually leaning towards either view at the moment. Just thinking out loud. The muppet inside me is trying to justify the idea this deal needs to get done now.

If Dortmund are expecting to get the same price or more next summer, then they must have a hell of a lot of conviction that grounds will be to full capacity very soon. Even if grounds were only half full from now till end of season, that would still be very crippling to the finances in football.
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sammsky1 said:
It kind of is. Barcelona are royally screwed as a business because their previous investments and wages on players like Dembele and Couthino have not delivered the expected financial returns.

Whether you like it or not, football clubs are run as businesses. And it’s virtually impossible right now to project future expected income over next 3-24 months. Spending £100m on one player on that context needs to be considered 100 times before going ahead.

Sancho investment would requires the team to deliver a certain amount of incremental revenue in prize money and sponsorships for it to pay off. If clubs fails to deliver those, because of a Covid-19 reduced football economy, the club would face serious cash flow issues and perhaps even go bankrupt.

from what I understand about the clubs income and balance sheet, I wouldn’t go head with it. Advertising industry and Big company marketing spend is down 40% since COVID-19: What if the bottom falls out of the sponsorship market or sky TV as revenue during football games? What if people get fed up watching crowd less and atmosphere less football on TV? What if they don’t let fans back in stadium until a vaccine is consumed by every person?

MUFC were burning £25m per month with no income during lockdown. I repeat it’s £100m!!!! which Club could also bank for now and use to pay staff and keep the lights on in case any of those scenarios play out.
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Two sensible posts!

In about 3-4 weeks MUFC will present their 2019/20 annual report.

What‘s known so far is that most of the sport industry will suffers deeply from the consequences of the Pandemic. Professional football clubs finance themselves by large on match going spectators and television revenues. Only a few of the most well known clubs has enough commercial partners to partly compensate those losses in a period of less incomes. Most clubs will suffer, some will be close to bankruptcy if their Governments or local politicians isn’t willing to help them. I have seen many initiatives when clubs tries to fund raise money from loyal sponsors or supporters in order to keep their staff and athletes until their national health department allow spectators again on the arenas.

United’s 2019/20 annual report will give us supporters all numbers in black and white if the club has enough own cash or cash equivalents to invest up to €120m on new players.

The board will also present a financial forecast of the next coming period and they will probably speculate about upcoming opportunities and future risks.

To those who question why we don’t use all our own cash or our revolving credit of £140m then maybe it’s because the credit has restrictions who don’t allow us to use it on players transfers.
 
sammsky1 said:
Whether you like it or not, football clubs are run as businesses. And it’s virtually impossible right now to project future expected income over next 3-24 months. Spending £100m on one player on that context needs to be considered 100 times before going ahead.
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Yeah, and even before the pandemic, you have football clubs that could see themselves facing financial issues. Juventus have spent a ton of money and are trying to free up their wages. Real Madrid planned their finances on getting past the Round of 16 of the Champions League. We know about Barcelona's problems. Then COVID-19 hit.

We're fortunate to be able to handle the financial hit of COVID-19, but the only way we'd put in a ton of money up front on Sancho is if we guarantee some sales. It wouldn't surprise me if, behind the scenes, we're working with other clubs to sell players just like Chelsea were. At the moment, there aren't any reliable outgoing links, and I don't think the club has briefed any of them unlike Chelsea.

Marcus said:
I think the reality is that we aren't that rich as a club. Having to account to shareholders makes it difficult to justify taking risks especially in a pandemic. We need someone to buy the club and take it private if we want to buy with impunity, FFP being satisfied of course.
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We aren't rich, yeah, but most clubs aren't. The revenues may be very high, but the expenses are also quite high. That's why much of the financial analysis on football isn't based on profits but on cash flow and then revenue. Cash flow's the most important factor for a club's ability to spend.

This is from our Q3 2020 report:
DaDLO5o.png

The results of the cash flow:
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So yeah, we had 90 million pounds on 31 March 2020. Given the impact of COVID-19, I can see why the club are not just jumping the gun on getting Jadon Sancho. Letting go of Sanchez will help, but that'll be offset by the loss in broadcasting revenue.
 
7even said:
To those who question why we don’t use all our own cash or our revolving credit of £140m then maybe it’s because the credit has restrictions who don’t allow us to use it on players transfers.
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I may be wrong here, but haven't we used the revolving credit to make up for the loss of matchday revenue?
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Barcelona wanted the player and paid. They paid Dortmund 140m for Dembele and thats a year after Pogba was valued at 100m. And here we are fecking about when they are asking for 120m for the world's best young player. Typical.
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Barcelona are not exactly pulling up trees are they and are a club in real trouble! 140M for Dembele was madness as is 120m for Sancho.
 
pixel said:
If there is a big difference between United's valuation and the terms of payment, it would be pointless putting a bid in. Dortmund isn't going to be saying, "oh well at least they put a bid in. They should now get first dibs on the player."

If anything, it could backfire spectacularly. If the bid isn't seen to be high enough, you risk alienating the player. You also reveal how much you are prepared to pay which could affect future negotiations.
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If the gap is so huge then it's probably better to chase more realistic targets because time is running out. The longer this drags on the more reluctant BD will be to sell because they will also need time to find a replacement for one of their star players, and the player himself will easily understand this. Also, as it is it's easy for BD to say to him "We haven't received any bid for you so you are part of our plans this season". Also, it's unlikely that the player doesn't know how much United are prepared to offer for his services, so the risk of alienating him is there already.
 
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I am just wondering. Would you rather
A) take Ziyech, Werner, Havertz, Chilwell, Thiago Silva and Malang Sarr
B) 1000 pages of Sancho on Caf
Someone wrote here why are we comparing us to Chelsea. Maybe because the fact that we finished both on 66 points? And if we dont compare us to chelsea, city, pool, then who should we be compared to? Sheffield United? Wolves? Leicester City? Burnley? God forbid Arsenal. Arsenal is good example of what settling for 4th can do for your football club
 
Radio silence from the club, and all the top journo's are basically regurgitating other club talking points so they can sell their player to arsenal (example) for more.

If we have walked away...where is the briefing?
 
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