Still more insightful than goals and assists, imo
Jadon Sancho - Chelsea (loan) watch
- Thread starter horsechoker
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Still more insightful than goals and assists, imo
Available for all the games, but only selected to play 679 minutes?
What a success story!
Well he joined us on deadline day so he missed the early part of the season. He came off the bench in GW4 and his first start was in GW5. We’re in GW16 now, and he really doesn’t feature in European games, along with the rest of main starters. Pretty easy to see why Garnacho, Amad and Rashford have double his minutes when they get to play league and Europa league games.
On which basis are you judging his intellect and that of his peers?
Rephrase my answer to it will be interesting if he can stay there in that case. Who is main competition for LW Neto, Mudryck?
Far more insightful yeah. That’s why we determine football matches by goal creating actions rather than goals.
If he was streets ahead of all the other options in the squad, there were plenty of minutes available for us in the early part of the season.
He’s played less than half of your available minutes since joining. In a years time when he has let ye down and finds himself embroiled in some latest drama, you are going to feel foolish for going to bat for him. The guy is a spoofer.
On the basis of him being a professional footballer with the world at his feet, but prioritising staying up all night on his PlayStation rather than being fresh for training. Also on the basis of him wasting a full season of his career because he was too thick and immature to admit he was wrong and apologise to his manager, having thrown his toys out of the pram publicly when he was rightly called out for being shite in training.
Perhaps they hand out Mensa awards in Germany for such behaviour but I’d be wary about trusting a young fella like that with scissors unsupervised.
By peers, I was referring to the adolescents he stays up all night battling online.
It was initially Neto, but he’s since moved to the right and pushed Madueke to the bench. I don’t think Mudryk gets much of a consideration for league games.
Was he really shite? Is there ANY proof to this claim EtH made? It was literally a clash of two personalities and both haven't appeared to be the smartest guys around, so I really would be careful to take sides here. Considering how often EtH failed to see problems on the pitch during matches we could actually watch I severely doubt that he was a good judge of what was happening at the training ground either.
Football matches are decided by goals, yes. But fairly often, the one who scored the goal wasn't the one who deserves the most credit for it.
That has absolutely nothing to do with intellect. In fact, there are studies that people with a tendency to stay up late have an overaverage intellect. Plus video games evidently develop your problem solving skills which is usually seen as an intellectuall skill. Besides that, you don't have any reliable sources for these accusations. And in my opinion, intelligent people don't form strong opinions on the basis of unconfirmed hearsay by illwilled gossip.
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It basically accounts for the last 3 actions that lead to a goal/shot, sort of accounting for 'pre-assist' but also includes dribbles and shots. Example, if Sancho hits a shot the keeper saves and then a player receives the rebound and passes to someone who scores, Sancho gets a count as a goal creating action.
I think it's valuable for deeper midfielders who usually play cross field passes that can help create a chance from a cross/pass.
We’ll see my friend. So far so good. Only time will tell if you’re right. Happy to revisit this in May.
There’s literally a video of him training on a day he knows the cameras are there, where he’s cheating instead of doing a small number of push ups.
All his mates told him to apologise and be done with it. The lads who write for the Athletic have ties throughout the club and have unanimously reported that Ten Hag had asked him to press properly and he was refusing to do it. Then he was given the chance to do it properly or leave the session and he chose to leave.
Ten Hag took Ajax to within a couple of minutes of a Champions League final. He failed at United but stefan92 off the fecking internet “severely doubting how good he is at judging what happens on a training ground” isn’t a legitimate argument in the face of all the evidence throughout his career that Jadon Sancho is a thick waster.
fecking hell, you really see the contradiction in this, do you?
Not sure if this is serious, which says more about where we are with stats than anything else.
Fixed that for you...
As I said in the matchday thread yesterday: it was really weird to see him battling with an opposition player for the ball in like the 85th minute of the match or whenever it was - whatever Chelsea have done to reach him, or if he just simply has more respect for them than he ever showed us, it'll be fascinating to see how long it will last.
Thanks for this. It does feel like there is a new stat that comes up every month to amplify a players output. Like the Hojlund ones about his shots to goals ratio. Stats for the sake of stats.
Jadon Sancho, night owl, FIFA master, intellectual extraordinaire.
Bundesliga fans never fail to make me laugh on here
It’s ok lads that he looked amazing in your league but isn’t very good here. Nobody is trying to say your league is shite or overrated or a vessel for all the other clubs to subjugate themselves to one master club.
These things just happen sometimes.
The contradiction of me watching a video of him dialling it in with my own eyes, or the reading multiple reports from well placed and sourced journalists about what happened, versus some clown on the internet who thinks a professional football manager made it all up because he’s incapable of judging what happens in training?
When the same player has been criticised for his training and professionalism at the two clubs he was at previously? And when literally none of his mates at the club came out to bat for him after it happened?
Jadon Sancho, night owl, FIFA master, intellectual extraordinaire.
Bundesliga fans never fail to make me laugh on here
It’s ok lads that he looked amazing in your league but isn’t very good here. Nobody is trying to say your league is shite or overrated or a vessel for all the other clubs to subjugate themselves to one master club.
These things just happen sometimes.
I'm not talking about Sancho, I'm talking about you being a living example of the Dunning-Kruger effect
At what point could you see this happening? Certainly not in the next couple years..
You're distracting again. You claim that Ten Hag knows what he is doing because he reached a UCL semi final and ignore that Sancho started a UCL final last season.
Yes I know that video. And it's stupid how he tried to joke around instead of taking that seriously, I don't doubt that.
I also don't doubt this story. But it's not important. The question isn't if Sancho trained badly (I believe that he did), but if it was justified to single him out. And looking at the lazyness and pressing incompetence I've seen in United matches from other players (and considering how Sancho did work in Dortmund) I just have a really hard time imagining that he was so much worse than all the alternatives.
Or in other words: I don't doubt he was shit at that time. I doubt he was the worst.
There's also evidence that Sancho can (can!) be a leading figure in a strong team. He literally dragged Dortmund to win the German cup - still their only title in almost a decade. He also can be a lazy fecker ignoring rules.
Well you aren't, other people on here are
But you are right, this isn't about the league. I think everybody could assume that he just would be a bit worse in the PL in regard to his stats, but not how much he fell off a cliff. After watching him for four years working (!) his way into Dortmund's squad and becoming one of the most exciting players in the league it's just so surprising to see him be so bad. And that makes us wonder and think there have to be reasons.True. Maybe he really turned too lazy after looking at his paycheck or something like that.
I think the main difference is at Utd he thought himself as a big star / fee transfer and deserved the starting role no matter what (comparing to Garnacho, Amad).
Now at Chelsea, he is just a part of a system (and on loan). Chelsea will have no problem to let him sit on the bench / play in Conference League if he does not perform since they still have at least 2 others (Neto, Felix and even Mudryk, Nukunku) that they can use.
Depends on whether and if so how quick he can turn back the clock. But the Sancho I saw up until 2021 or so didn't have to hide from anyone except for the absolute highest echelon of players who haven't been playing in the EPL for quite a while, IMO. He has at the Vini Jr level in him.
De Bruyne Rodri and Salah at their best all went to a level higher than Vini Jr. Post Messi and Ronaldo prime, a lot of the highest echelon of players have been in the PL.
Yea, I love stats because they add a lot of context to matches but because there are more stats, that might provide a lot of insight, there is greater opportunity for misinterpretation and proliferation of misleading stats.
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You can’t be this simple surely? A footballer playing in a final despite being a bit thick and a lot immature, is nowhere even remotely close to the same as a manager who is incapable of judging training sessions - guiding a club like Ajax as far as he did in the Champions League.
Cute. Clever you.
If I was as hung up on the opinions of internet tryhards as Bundesliga fans on Redcafe I might get upset at such a personal attack.
But you’ll struggle to find me presenting myself as the sort of intellectual genius you are suggesting Sancho is. I haven’t once suggested there have been studies that champion the intellect of people who spend 20 minutes on the shitter of a monday afternoon, arguing with butthurt Germans on the internet.
For all our back and forth, you might have found the nail on the head here.
On some of your earlier points - I don’t doubt for one second that he wasn’t the only one training poorly. Look at what’s happened this weekend with Rashford and Garnacho. Amorim’s words are almost a carbon copy of what Ten Hag said about Sancho.
The difference is that neither Rashford nor Garnacho took to social media last night to call the manager a liar. If Sancho had been called out for training poorly, taken it on the chin and worked to get back on the manager’s good side, I wouldn’t be on here slating him and calling him thick or immature.
This squad has long had issues with workrate and professionalism. I don’t doubt either that coming into such an environment did Sancho no favours at all. But at a certain point, when you are on the big wages and want to be treated with the big boy gloves, you are personally accountable for your own behaviour and application.
The idea that Sancho wasn’t immature, or thick or a waster, and that Ten Hag was responsible for him not working out here is a nonsense.
The difference is they weren't left out of the squad and they weren't singled out in the same way Sancho was.
Yes, would have made the discussion around that much easier for all of us
Again, I fully agree. As you say the squad as a whole had (and still seems to have) those problems. All I am wondering about in this whole saga is: Is Sancho really worse than the other lazy guys? Or was he just the only one stupid enough to go on collision course instead of staying low both on and off the pitch?
To nuance this a bit more: I don't think EtH is responsible for Sancho not working out. But I do think EtH is responsible for the whole clash instead of moderating it better.
In the end all this doesn't even matter. Fact is, Sancho didn't work out at United under multiple managers, so the only thing we actually discuss here is if the whole drama was necessary. And I feel (and am probably guilty of that myself) that we focused far too much on this aspect instead of just agreeing that he showed very weak performances very often for United.
As it seems, Ten Hag's contribution to the UCL run of Ajax was far small than it seemed at the time.
I haven't suggested Sancho is an intellectual genius. I suggested you are not because you judge people's intellect on a insufficient basis on information which, ironically, is not what an intelligent person does. And I can't stand people who judge other's intellect and fail to live up the standards they set for themselves in doing so. Especially not if they liken underachieving to stupidity.
And if you don't care about my opinion, why do you try so fecking hard to come across as tough?
Yes they were. Both were left out of the squad yesterday and in the press conference, the manager said it was a selection call based on what he had seen in training and in all aspects of preparation during the week.
Go back and read what Ten Hag said when asked about why he had dropped Sancho. If you look at the actual words said and not all the nonsense written by people who wanted to defend Sancho or slate Ten Hag afterwards, the two situations are almost identical.
Demanding a public apology was ridiculous by Ten Hag. Let the player apologise behind closed doors and move on. Amorim hasn't come out to the media and said that Garnacho and Rashford need to prostrate themselves in front of everyone to get back into the team, has he?
Both were being silly but one is meant to be a fully grown adult and mentor. Sancho obviously fecked up to initiate the dispute but as far as I'm concerned Ten Hag bore more responsibility for it continuing by refusing to back down.
Yes they absolutely were?The difference is they weren't left out of the squad and they weren't singled out in the same way Sancho was.
Yes, would have made the discussion around that much easier for all of us
Again, I fully agree. As you say the squad as a whole had (and still seems to have) those problems. All I am wondering about in this whole saga is: Is Sancho really worse than the other lazy guys? Or was he just the only one stupid enough to go on collision course instead of staying low both on and off the pitch?
To nuance this a bit more: I don't think EtH is responsible for Sancho not working out. But I do think EtH is responsible for the whole clash instead of moderating it better.
In the end all this doesn't even matter. Fact is, Sancho didn't work out at United under multiple managers, so the only thing we actually discuss here is if the whole drama was necessary. And I feel (and am probably guilty of that myself) that we focused far too much on this aspect instead of just agreeing that he showed very weak performances very often for United.
How was his contribution “far small” than it seemed at the time?
The guy came in to an Ajax side that hadn’t won the league and hadn’t been past the CL group stage in 4 or 5 years, won the league 4 years on the bounce and got within a whisker of a CL final. Since he left, they finished 3rd and 5th in the league and again failed to get past the CL group stage. All that despite us handing them a small fortune in transfer fees with which to improve their squad while he was with us.
Whats your argument for his contribution being smaller than it seemed?
God this is tedious.
I don’t liken achievement to intelligence. I don’t think he’s stupid because he’s crap.
I think he’s stupid because he was playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world on astronomical wages and he couldn’t maintain the professionalism needed to fulfil the bare minimum required for his position.
I think he’s stupid because he couldn’t get out of his own way and admit he was in the wrong. Because he went on social media to call out his boss and then doubled down on it.
You can give me all the studies and pedantry and witty internet circle-jerk theorems you like, but the lad is as thick as mince and so is anybody who feels a desperate need to defend him.
Don't think he ever demanded a public apology? Could be wrong as the whole saga was so tiresome but can't remember Ten Hag ever saying that.
Things tend to sound ridiculous when you just make them up.
There is no evidence that Sancho ever apologised behind closed doors either.
How was Ten Hag wanting a public apology more ridiculous than Sancho publicly calling him a liar in the first place?
This is a coach who arranged via his personal contacts, for one of his highest paid players to miss half the prior season so he could go to Holland and get his head right.
The idea that this incident was the first and only episode of an issue is farcical. Ten Hag went above and beyond for Sancho and then had it publicly thrown in his face - to simply swallow that and “be the adult” would’ve completely undermined any authority he had in the squad.
Any coach worth his salt would’ve kicked Sancho out of the squad for good there and then. Fergie would’ve thrown him out a window. If there’s any criticism to be levelled at Ten Hag it’s that he was too soft on the whole thing.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4915182/2023/10/26/jadon-sancho-manchester-united-apology-row/
Relevant bit: "Ten Hag wanted an apology to his face, which the club would then communicate publicly as a means of contextualising Sancho’s return to the squad."
Ok so whoops - it wasn't a "public apology", it was an "apology that would then be made public".