True, but still a surprise considering when the chips were down, McMahon always went for muscles.
Ivan Toney Pt.2 | Signs for Al Ahli
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) get the depressing job of reviewing United's 3-0 loss at Old Trafford to Liverpool. They discuss what went wrong, Casemiro's day to forget, and the pressure now on Erik Ten Hag. They also take some time to give McTominay a proper farewell, and give their overall thoughts on the Summer Transfer Window.
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Rooney, RVP, Chicharito
I think we need two central strikers who will provide a box threat and Zirkzee from the little I've seen of him doesn't provide that and he looks like a player who will be occupying positions where you would find Bruno Fernandes. Zirkzee is a facilitator to the likes of Rashford and Garnacho which should see them getting more opportunities to shoot on goal due to the Dutch player's ability to make the ball stick when he drops deeper.
It does make sense to sign a alternative striker to Højlund who will pin the opposing CBs and cause a box threat by stretching the opposition vertically. Zirkzee isn't that player.
It does make sense to sign a alternative striker to Højlund who will pin the opposing CBs and cause a box threat by stretching the opposition vertically. Zirkzee isn't that player.
If (and that's a huge if) the price is right, I'd be thrilled. Over the last few years we've depended on a hot and cold Rashford, a constantly injured Martial, Wout, a learning/adapting Rasmus and an aging Ronaldo briefly. Having some flexibility at striker with different styles and different options would be a breath of fresh air. Plus Ruud could sink his teeth into them during training and really be in their ears and give guidance. I genuinely don't understand the hesitancy over adding him, unless the price is outrageous.
Toney would have been ace for us in those lean days when we deployed Wout Weghorst, Goal Machine.
We will rather play Rashy upfront imo than spend another 50m for a striker
Why on earth would we spend 50 million on him. I hope we do a Madrid and look to get him for free next season
I'd love him here. Don't understand some of the negativity surrounding this. We can't go into a season with just Hojlund and Zirkzee up top
He will be close to 30 by then, which is a huge Caf nono
Since Ronaldo left we’ve not had much of a goalscorer. Just Rash with his purple patch. We’re desperate for goals. Toney absolutely needs signing.
Rashy sadly doesn't have the quality to provide a threat in a central role and his inability to hold play, win duels and a lack of effort when closing down space would be counter productive to the team.
I also don't think it will take £50m to add the aforementioned qualities which are qualities that create a functional team from back to front.
I dont disagree, I just said it is the likelier option
Toney's best season in the PL saw him return goals at almost exactly the same rate Hojlund did last season. 0.43 per 90 versus 0.42 per 90. And in his other two seasons he returned at near half that rate, 0.22 & 0.25.
There are arguments to be made for Toney, but anyone who advocates for him because "we need a goalscorer" is badly misreading both the type of player he is and a record inflated by penalties and minutes.
Don't know if you ever watch osw on YouTube, but if you haven't you need to.Two quick-time replies. Wasn't expecting that.
Luger got well and truly fecked. From Narcissist heel to All-America, Red, White and Blue patriot with cringey bus-tour gimmick in a couple of weeks, not to mention that white-meat Duggan-esque entrance music. A count-out win followed by the entire lockerroom coming out to celebrate Luger not winning the belt..............was (ugh) inspired stuff. It's really not on Luger..........and most certainly not on Ivan Toney.
But then you're forgetting that he's doing it at a Brentford, a fairly humble club who are enjoying a few seasons in the premier league then will fade back to the championship.
I've never particularly been a Toney fan, having found him a right arrogant sort against my boys Wycombe when he was at Peterborough.
But he'd be an interesting option at the right price.
there is no right price for United buying PL players…he’ll be 70m plus for us.
Sure, but the comparison I'm making is with Hojlund last season, where we were almost exactly as creative a side as Brentford have been over the last couple of seasons.
United 23/24 - 57 goals (56.5 xG)
Brentford 23/24 - 57 goals (58.2 xG)
Brentford 22/23 - 58 goals (56.3 xG)
If we're arguing that Toney would fare better in a better attack, the same applies to Hojlund. Except Hojlund is at an age where you would expect more chance of him improving anyway .
No issue with people wanting Toney, especially for the right price, but if they're expecting him to be a big improvement on what we already have in terms of actual goalscoring then they're setting themselves up for disappointment.
The two Ronnies had fork ‘andles.
not taking these rumours serious yet. Hopefully we get CB, LB and CM sorted ASAP then can work on these luxury deals.
Toney would would fit our system and our strikers will finally have competition.
Toney would would fit our system and our strikers will finally have competition.
Hope he comes
You need to look at each team's xG playing with and without Hojlund and Toney, to have a better idea of how they affect the team's total xG, as it is not independent from the striker's quality in open-play outside of goals and assists.
Some strikers make the team better overall. And it is possible Hojlund lower's his team's overall xG, and Toney raises his team's overall xG, despite scoring or assisting at a similar rate themselves.
So De Ligt, Kadioglu and Ugarte although he has more of a DM than a CM profile
We need to close these ones and maybe Doure (sp) before we even consider Toney. I must say though that our scouting for the RCB has left me a bit disappointed, we need to move on Branthwaite because Everton are hell bent on skinning us alive and go to more realistic and affordable options. We should only go beyond £50m for truly special players.
Pinning centre backs is a great idea when you have a load of #10-style needle players who like to operate between the lines, run at defenders, and play quick combinations. That pretty much describes Amad and Sancho on a good day. The rest of our players (and I'd include Bruno here) ideally want to be running beyond the defensive line. For that, I would say you're better off dragging defenders away.
Don't get me wrong, I love strikers. I want us to sign all the strikers. But it's way down the list of priorities for me now that we've got Zirkzee coming in.
Pinning the CBs vertically via a target through the middle can create space horizontally for the fullbacks and wide forwards to run into. Zirzkee isn't a guy who will look to pin the CB but rather he's someone who will come deeper to make the ball stick and facilitate for others. He's not someone who will take a lot of shots on goal himself but with him holding the ball up and making it stick, will potentially allow the wide forwards to take even more shots on goal.
I'm not really too bothered about the striker myself and my primary concern is to improve the attack by raising the level at the back and in deeper midfield. But I can see why Toney would be a good alternative to Hojlund in the short to mid-term for the reasons stated above.
This is why I'm very happy with the signing, and I'd say he'll be a big benefit to the likes of Mount and Bruno attacking the box from central positions too. I feel like I keep banging on about Lewis Ferguson, but Zirkzee was a huge help in getting a player who nobody thought much of a year ago to winning Serie A midfielder of the year.
Great point. United fans seem to give certain players a pass and think they should be immune from competition. If most are honest, if Hojlund had signed for Liverpool and was their sole striker we would be saying he underperformed and doesn't show massive potential. Similar to how we talked about Nunez.
The idea that Hojlund will become a leading striker for us is more hope that based on reality. The way he played in the Euros was similar to how he played most of the season for us....a bit meh. I hope I'm wrong but if we signed Toney I think he'd be number 1 fairly quickly as he would show he is currently better. And that's fine. It's then for Hojlund to improve and earn his place in the team. He hasn't done that yet.
Toney brings more than goals he brings players in really well. I'd love him here. He reminds me of Vardy. People will keep talking about him as not being good enough until he retires but big clubs will regret not getting him.
How would you fit all of those players into the team? I'm curious to see what your thoughts are on this.
Can't be bothered to look that up myself, but this is from an article from January:
So to your point, in terms of Toney's extended suspension in the season just gone at least Brentford showed little sign of being impacted by his absence. If he was raising his team's overall xG, it didn't show in those stats.
What I'm anticipating is that Zirkzee dropping deep to become something of an attacking pivot, along with a rest defense that can cover ground and sustain attacks, gives the players in midfield and on the wings less work to do, and subsequently more license to make runs into the box.
So you could have Bruno and Mount/Mainoo behind Zirkzee alternating playmaking and box-crashing duties, with the wingers similarly alternating between holding width and queueing up for a shot. That would allow us to have more varied attacks and raise the goalscoring threat all over the lineup, rather than being completely dependent on a single goalscorer, as we often have been.
If we're building play on the right, say, we could see an attacking pattern similar to this:
Rashford----Mount
-------------------------Zirkzee---Bruno
-----------------------------------------------Garnacho
--------------------------------------Dalot
And on the left:
--------------------------------Bruno----Garnacho
---------Mount---Zirkzee
Rashford
------------Shaw
Where we create a 4v3 or 4v2 overload on one flank to shift the defence so as to create space for the attacking players on the opposite side to take advantage of a switch of play or a change of tempo. Arsenal under Arteta did this a lot when they had Jesus in the lineup, to pretty good effect.
And then you have Rasmus who can come in either for Zirkzee to pin the CBs and create space behind the opposition midfield, or come in for a midfielder when we're chasing a game. He could even come on for a wide player in certain games where we want to go with something like a split striker system.
I agree he offers us a lot and is proven in the league. But unless we going 442 again which I can’t see as ETH has never used that formation long term. Does seem odd when we supposedly have a tight budget and our midfield and defence is in need of surgery.
Tight budget but are throwing 40mil bids everywhere, apparently bid 21m for Ferdi Kadıoğlu too.
Must be gambling on players leaving
EDIT: that was so unintentional it’s ridiculous
He’s not going to be the best striker we ever had, but he would be an experienced premier league proven option.
Can start games or come on as an impact sub, the same way he does for England.
He’s strong, tall and gets himself about.
Bruno will take penalties, but I still think Toney would chip in with 10 goals minimum.
Can start games or come on as an impact sub, the same way he does for England.
He’s strong, tall and gets himself about.
Bruno will take penalties, but I still think Toney would chip in with 10 goals minimum.
Kadioglu would be an unusually smart signing for us. Guess we just sticking the middle finger up to FFP. Which is I think is flawed anyways. Lets see what happens. Just nice to see us buy players before August 31st
I'm not saying that eiher. I'm speaking about his reputation being so big despite 1 standout season at the top level. Everytime he scores a pen theres a case study.
So he has, penalties aren't free goals and you can't discount them just to suit your arguement. He could be on pens for us as he has one of the best records of current footballers. But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we should sign another forward as we don't have any reliable goalscoreres. Toney would also bring us something different like a forward who isn't scared of heading the ball.
It's clear as day most of our forwards can't be counted on, especially to score goals. People get attached to players so duds get a longer grace period than they should. If Toney is available for 25-30M I don't see why not as a rotation option. We need an overhaul up front as our current options are embarrassing for a team with ambition.I think it depends on the post/poster - glass half full or half empty viewpoint. Some will go “I like xxxxx, hope he kicks on” and some ”I’ve watched xxxxx for a few games, he’s not good enough, let’s spend another £50m” (that we haven’t got).
For example, I’ve seen posters backing Sancho
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