Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

holyland red said:
Even funnier is calling these places universities. Here's a glimpse of the academic activity at:

Al-Quds University (Jerusalem, Israel's capital)

Al-Quds.jpg


BirZeit University (Ramallah, PA capital, WB)

ber-zet4.jpg


ber-zet1.jpg


Al-Najah University (Nablus, WB)

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Here's the tactics used to form the state of Israel:

kingdavbomb.jpg


Terrorism. Pure and simple.

Its about time you stop with this holier than thou business.
 
thegregster said:
Here's the tactics used to form the state of Israel:

kingdavbomb.jpg


Terrorism. Pure and simple.

Its about time you stop with this holier than thou business.
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This must be the British army HQ in Jerusalem in that pic...God, someone was complacent there considering the warning call.
 
Diabo_Sam said:
I am against what happened, before I write anything or "make it up" I don't expect you to believe it. If you find it hard to believe that's part of a bigger problem on your side not mine.
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I think that lack of trust is a problem for both sides. I think a clear statement of recognition in the other side's right for self determination is a pre-requisite for any future progress. Make no mistake about it, for all the crap being thrown here for years and despite the huge divide separating our views, your post yesterday acknowledging Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state was special. I just wish that a democratically-elected Palestinian administration follows your example.
 
holyland red said:
What is? targeting army installations? Are you on drugs?
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So it would be ok for Hamas to carry out a similar attack today? :rolleyes:

Also what about all the other action of the Stern Gang and Irgun? Massacring innocent people all over.
 
thegregster said:
So it would be ok for Hamas to carry out a similar attack today? :rolleyes:
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Obviously, I can't be objective here and support Hamas attacks on IDF targets. Still, I think we would both agree that there would be a fundamental difference between such attacks and what Hamas is focusing on which is targeting civilians.

For your sake I hope it's ignorance that clouds your judgement. Read the Hamas charter to find out the movement's goals, rendering further analogies pointless.

thegregster said:
Also what about all the other action of the Stern Gang and Irgun? Massacring innocent people all over.
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They weren't a very nice bunch, those two groups, and carried out some outright atrocities. These were often counter-productive to the Zionist cause, which is why their people were eventually fought against and turned in to British hands. When the Palestinians are wise enough to unite behind a strong leadership which would lead them to the path of peace they will have a chance to follow the example of the Zionist movement.
 
holyland red said:
Obviously, I can't be objective here and support Hamas attacks on IDF targets. Still, I think we would both agree that there would be a fundamental difference between such attacks and what Hamas is focusing on which is targeting civilians.

For your sake I hope it's ignorance that clouds your judgement. Read the Hamas charter to find out the movement's goals, rendering further analogies pointless.



They weren't a very nice bunch, those two groups, and carried out some outright atrocities. These were often counter-productive to the Zionist cause, which is why their people were eventually fought against and turned in to British hands. When the Palestinians are wise enough to unite behind a strong leadership which would lead them to the path of peace they will have a chance to follow the example of the Zionist movement.
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The Israel state was founded by attacking and driving away Arabs. To suggest that the targeting of ordinary civilians wasn't a major strategy in the setting up of the state of Israel is a fantasy. The Israel army as well as the Stern and Irgun massacred many innocent civilians in 1948.

Israeli's had no problem electing many of them.
 
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thegregster said:
The Israel state was founded by attacking and driving away Arabs. To suggest that the targeting of ordinary civilians wasn't a major strategy in the setting up of the state of Israel is a fantasy. The Israel army as well as the Stern and Irgun massacred many innocent civilians in 1948.

Israeli's had no problem electing many of them.
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As did the Arabs. In fact Arab massacres pre-date anything the Sterns and Irgun did simply because those groups did not exist when the Arabs massacred innocent Jews as early as the 1920's.
 
holyland red said:
As did the Arabs. In fact Arab massacres pre-date anything the Sterns and Irgun did simply because those groups did not exist when the Arabs massacred innocent Jews as early as the 1920's.
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None of that justifies the expulsion of 700,000 people from their homes.
 
Diabo_Sam said:
Give me back something special, but make no mistake it will not be out of your courtesy it will be just giving back.
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I told you I was all for a peaceful neighbouring Palestinian state. I mentioned before the distrust which is a major stumbling block and it's a damn shame. The vast majority of Israelis would support what we see as a territorial compromise (along the lines of the map above) if we trusted the Palestinians regarding future demands (right of return etc.).
 
thegregster said:
None of that justifies the expulsion of 700,000 people from their homes.
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The Palestinians, backed by Arab armies opened a war of annihilation against the Jews of newly-founded Israel. I'm thrilled we won, and blame the Arab leadership for the refugee problem (either expelled or people fleeing their homes). At the same time 900,000 Jews were expelled from their homes in Arab countries for no reason. Those do not live in refugee camps 65 years on. Neither do any other refugees from the 1940's.
 
holyland red said:
The Palestinians, backed by Arab armies opened a war of annihilation against the Jews of newly-founded Israel. I'm thrilled we won, and blame the Arab leadership for the refugee problem (either expelled or people fleeing their homes). At the same time 900,000 Jews were expelled from their homes in Arab countries for no reason. Those do not live in refugee camps 65 years on. Neither do any other refugees from the 1940's.
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Nice of you to admit you stole their homes.
 
thegregster said:
Nice of you to admit you stole their homes.
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Just to make it clear, I'm not trying to win an internet contest with you.

There are historical records of people being expelled. I personally know Arabs who were expelled from their homes as kids. I live in a city where Jews and Arabs co-exist. Many of its Arab inhabitants fled their homes in 1948 for fear of reprisals. Many others stayed, and have since contributed to the wonderful model for co-existence that Haifa is.
 
holyland red said:
Just to make it clear, I'm not trying to win an internet contest with you.

There are historical records of people being expelled. I personally know Arabs who were expelled from their homes as kids. I live in a city where Jews and Arabs co-exist. Many of its Arab inhabitants fled their homes in 1948 for fear of reprisals. Many others stayed, and have since contributed to the wonderful model for co-existence that Haifa is.
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Sure once their a minority and the rest aren't allowed return isn't it grand.
 
Diabo_Sam said:
I have no problem with territorial compromise, but in the map above first you want to keep the areas from Kedumim to Ariel which go through West Bank means Israel plan to keep their troops around those areas. Second why on earth we would accept to give you those areas in return for a desert. Let alone the Jerusalem problem.
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Tiny details in the grand scheme of things. If there was peace here there would be no relevance for extra 400mm annual rainfall in 3-5% of the territory. Personally I wouldn't mind swapping Wadi Ara territory instead of desert, but that's another point. Peace would bring much more prosperity than some rainfall. Desalination makes the whole water issue irrelevant.
 
thegregster said:
Hence why Israel is now finally pushing for the two state solution?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...takes-center-stage-as-kerry-pushes-partition/
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Israel pushed for a two-state solution before it even existed. Check November 1947, when the Arab plan was to push the Jews into the sea. It is true though, that our democracy is really important to us, hence even some hardliners have realized that controlling millions of Palestinians comes at a price. However, living in a democracy can't be more precious than actually staying alive. Hence unless there is a guarantee that relieving the Palestinian people of our control will not result in a national catastrophe the situation isn't going to get any better.

Mind you, there are still some nutters here, from both sides of the political spectrum, pushing for a one-state solution.
 
I'm currently in the Holy Land and went to Hebron today... I cannot believe how bad it is over there. The conditions under which the Arab population live is inexcusable, especially for a liberal democracy which Israel is... Nothing can justify this, a man losing his wife because some settlers decided to unload five bullets in her in front of her children, his son blinded because of acid thrown on his face. Shuhadah street resembling a ghost town because of the murderous purge of Barucb Goldstein. A murderous purge, the punishment of which, cost the victims of the attack to this day, rather than the perpetrators... I mean, where is the humanity?
 
rotherham_red said:
I'm currently in the Holy Land and went to Hebron today... I cannot believe how bad it is over there. The conditions under which the Arab population live is inexcusable, especially for a liberal democracy which Israel is... Nothing can justify this, a man losing his wife because some settlers decided to unload five bullets in her in front of her children, his son blinded because of acid thrown on his face.
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who told you that?

rotherham_red said:
Shuhadah street resembling a ghost town because of the murderous purge of Barucb Goldstein. A murderous purge, the punishment of which, cost the victims of the attack to this day, rather than the perpetrators... I mean, where is the humanity?
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Baruch is fecking dead. Who are the perpetrators you want punished then?
 
Is
rotherham_red said:
I'm currently in the Holy Land and went to Hebron today... I cannot believe how bad it is over there. The conditions under which the Arab population live is inexcusable, especially for a liberal democracy which Israel is... Nothing can justify this, a man losing his wife because some settlers decided to unload five bullets in her in front of her children, his son blinded because of acid thrown on his face. Shuhadah street resembling a ghost town because of the murderous purge of Barucb Goldstein. A murderous purge, the punishment of which, cost the victims of the attack to this day, rather than the perpetrators... I mean, where is the humanity?
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What did you expect ? Israel is a racist state, worse than Apartheid 40 years ago and USA 60 years ago. But unfortunately, zionists around the world are so powerful that nothing can be done/said. I hope to see this country fall apart and self destruct in my life time. One thing is sure, it will not end well.
 
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Get off the fence and tell us what you really think.
 
Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz also expressed his sorrow and repeated his colleagues' calls for Hamas to pay the price for the deaths of the three boys.

"We must act decisively and destroy Hamas infrastructure in the West Bank and Gaza. We must teach Hamas a lesson they will never forget."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4536432,00.html
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Wonder if and how this is going to escalate now..
 
Suli said:
Get off the fence and tell us what you really think.
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I think that Israel is a racist state and a cancer that caused enough chaos since its creation in 1948. And I also think that the 2 states solution is not viable because WB and Gaza are not geographically related. The only solution for me is for Israel to cease being a jewish (talmudic) state and that a reconciliation occurs in the country so that Jews, Arabs and Christians live together, otherwise this war will go on forever because Israel is still kind of a ghost country, e.g a country without borders that is still colonizing as we speak.
 
I've always been fairly neutral on Israel/Palestine, but reading some of Holyland Red's posts over the last few years has made lean a little bit towards sympathising with the Palestinian cause.

I can kind of understand why HR takes such a sociopathic stance when the overwhelming feeling in this forum is pro-palestinian, but there are better ways to make some of his points. He's as bad as Hellboy.

Thank G-d for people like Amir who are willing to acknowledge the bleeding obvious rather than trying to whitewash or score points. He should really post here more often.
 
Amir said:
Unfortunately, I have to agree that Israel is a racist state.
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Then the reconciliation is possible with you. I know there are lot of sensible Israelis like you, but the only one we hear are the nutcases like Libermans and Netanyahus of this world.
 
Hellboy said:
Then the reconciliation is possible with you. I know there are lot of sensible Israelis like you, but the only one we hear are the nutcases like Libermans and Netanyahus of this world.
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And unfortunately I doubt it's going to change. Like one of the left winged (or centered) MP's in Israel said, "demography is killing us".
 
Amir said:
And unfortunately I doubt it's going to change. Like one of the left winged (or centered) MP's in Israel said, "demography is killing us".
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As long as Likoud and those palestinian puppets are in place nothing will change indeed, but there's always hope.
 
Dante said:
I've always been fairly neutral on Israel/Palestine, but reading some of Holyland Red's posts over the last few years has made lean a little bit towards sympathising with the Palestinian cause.

I can kind of understand why HR takes such a sociopathic stance when the overwhelming feeling in this forum is pro-palestinian, but there are better ways to make some of his points. He's as bad as Hellboy.

Thank G-d for people like Amir who are willing to acknowledge the bleeding obvious rather than trying to whitewash or score points. He should really post here more often.
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If I'm bad because I'm criticizing an ultra-racist government that is killing my brothers everyday in Palestine then fair enough.
 
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