Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

crappycraperson said:
It is not irrelevant yet thought pragmatically it should be. It is irrelevant in Oz and US because the native populations there have already been made near extinct or marginalized severely. I think Israel would have done the same by now if the whole conflict had occurred 100 years ago. Unfortunately under the current glare of 24/7 media and internet, conducting massacres is not so simple.
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I agree, the reason the Israelis haven't just massacred the Palestinians wholesale is little to do with morals and mostly political expedience. The Russians had a good old crack at Chechnya, mind. And when the Sri Lankans had enough they pretty much just killed ten or twenty thousand people. People pay more attention to Israel-Palestine... and a good job too, in that sense.

It is not irrelevant to the Palestinians, no, but until they come to terms with it, they'll be fecked. Mind you, so will the Israelis, probably, you have to grant them that.
 
africanspur said:
However, this is unfortunately all irrelevant as it really gets everyone nowhere. The Palestinians have lost out, perhaps in the distant distant future once we're all dead and everyone is peaceful, everyone can return to their ancestral homes and live side by side. Until that happens, they need to do what they can to lessen their suffering.
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Agree with this.
 
Danny1982 said:
The West were always looking for a new outpost there.

We have people who are traumatized and want to live in peace. "Ok, let's send them occupy another country! That sound a pretty peaceful solution that will not expose them to more wars!", compared to just letting them live peacefully in their countries. How does that make any sense?
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Have you any grasp of the history of the region???

Israel was legally established via the UN, the wording included the 'UNIQUE HISTORICAL RIGHTS' of the Jews; if this is not accounted as sovereign state holder the UN and all laws become meaningless.

No such status was given to anyone else. If one invents ways to negate Israel's rights - how about the 22 Islamic states which were not established via the UN, which never existed before and its disregarding of a host of non-muslims in Arabia - like the Copts, Kurds and over a million Jews living there for centuries?

Answer me that.

Jews have never occupied another peoples' land in all their 4000 year history, nor robbed the historical names of other peoples or dumped mosques in the known holy sites of other peoples. Israel is facing genocidal demands which are based on 100% known false notions.

The triple-hank job for the Pretend Pals is a sham - its only the Jewish problem raising its head again.
 
Plechazunga said:
I agree, the reason the Israelis haven't just massacred the Palestinians wholesale is little to do with morals and mostly political expedience. The Russians had a good old crack at Chechnya, mind. And when the Sri Lankans had enough they pretty much just killed ten or twenty thousand people. People pay more attention to Israel-Palestine... and a good job too, in that sense.

It is not irrelevant to the Palestinians, no, but until they come to terms with it, they'll be fecked. Mind you, so will the Israelis, probably, you have to grant them that.
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How much role do you think religion plays into Palestinian's stand? I would think if you truly did believe in Islam, you would be happy to martyr yourself for a fight you think is winnable given God has to be on your side even though realistically they should be looking to compromise. Or am I wrong on that one and it is mostly an independence movement fueled by nationalism?
 
crappycraperson said:
How much role do you think religion plays into Palestinian's stand? I would think if you truly did believe in Islam, you would be happy to martyr yourself for a fight you think is winnable given God has to be on your side even though realistically they should be looking to compromise. Or am I wrong on that one and it is mostly an independence movement fueled by nationalism?
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Not all Palestinians are Muslims.
 
crappycraperson said:
How much role do you think religion plays into Palestinian's stand? I would think if you truly did believe in Islam, you would be happy to martyr yourself for a fight you think is winnable given God has to be on your side even though realistically they should be looking to compromise. Or am I wrong on that one and it is mostly an independence movement fueled by nationalism?
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In my understanding it used to be predominantly nationalistic under the PLO, though of course religion was appealed to. But that's all changed with Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. Caused in part by Israel funding them to splinter the PLO... nice work geniuses.
 
crappycraperson said:
How much role do you think religion plays into Palestinian's stand? I would think if you truly did believe in Islam, you would be happy to martyr yourself for a fight you think is winnable given God has to be on your side even though realistically they should be looking to compromise. Or am I wrong on that one and it is mostly an independence movement fueled by nationalism?
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I think at the beginning it was mostly fuelled by nationalism and there were quite a few Christian Palestinian resistance leaders.

Unfortunately now, as across the Arab world, as 'secularism' (though I don't think the secular Arab dictators have ever been truly secular) has failed in the Arab world in every aspect of life, from the economy to HR to the Palestinians, people have increasingly turned to Islamic movements.
 
Fearless said:
The ones that fire rockets are.
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Well yes considering its Hamas firing the rockets, and Hamas are in fact a radical Islamist movement. The point I'm making is that its not only Palestinian Muslims who have been displaced from their homes and made permanent refugees.
 
Fearless said:
The ones that fire rockets are.
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Some of the Palestinians more ready to use violence against Israel have been Christians. Which doesn't really fit into your view that this is the front line of the war between Islam and the West (though Israel isn't a part of the West).
 
africanspur said:
Some of the Palestinians more ready to use violence against Israel have been Christians. Which doesn't really fit into your view that this is the front line of the war between Islam and the West (though Israel isn't a part of the West).
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This is the frontline, make no mistake about it.

Christians in Gaza are persecuted.
 
africanspur said:
Again, I agree with this. The Palestinians have had a truly shit deal. I think most people are deluding themselves if they tell themselves they wouldn't have done something similar to what Palestinians would have done in the past 60 years if they had been in their position. They have lost land, lives and dignity.

I also think that a perhaps more apt comparison when people ask what the Americans would do if someone was bombing their cities is what Americans would do if someone were to tell them that 78% of their country was to be given to the Native Americans, whether now or 200 years ago.

However, this is unfortunately all irrelevant as it really gets everyone nowhere. The Palestinians have lost out, perhaps in the distant distant future once we're all dead and everyone is peaceful, everyone can return to their ancestral homes and live side by side. Until that happens, they need to do what they can to lessen their suffering.
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The Palestinians lost out, and it's a tragedy, but so did lots of people after WWII. Not just the Jews who lost half their population and their homes, the literally millions of people from ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe to Japanese in Manchuria. The planet was crawling with DPs. Pretty much all those people have now reconciled themselves to losing their former land.

If the Palestinians could reconcile themselves to it, there's plenty of land for both peoples to live on (if not very much water). All bombing Tel Aviv will do is make their lives even shitter. But the Israelis IMO will one day rue failing to offer concessions from a position of strength, whether it's through fear or arrogance. Instead they're concentrating on grabbing as much as they can get before they have to give it back.
 
Fearless said:
This is the frontline, make no mistake about it.

Christians in Gaza are persecuted.
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Edward Said and Hanan Ashrawi. One was a prominent writer and one of the most well-known Palestinian activists, the other was prominent female military leader during the first intifada. One thing they both have in common is that they're Jerusalemite Christians. This isn't a war between Islam and the West as you're desperately trying to portray it as such.
 
If there was a solution in (Northern) Ireland then there's one in Palestine/Israel.
 
Fearless said:
This is the frontline, make no mistake about it.

Christians in Gaza are persecuted.
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Israel the country is not even slightly a part of the West. We don't tend to get involved in 45 year occupations and setting calorie limits for populations we're besieging over here. And we don't have foreign ministers who are basically fascists.
 
Israel tactics ate working. The West bank has become a sea of Palestine allotments cross crossed and controlled by Israeli checkpoints - a balkanised state. The Gaza Strip is perhaps too highly populated to enact the same strategy so restricting supplies and keeping them.on the edge serves the purpose of control.

Periodically there are flare Ups but the end game however long it takes is not a two state solution - it never was and never will happen.

This is a territorial dispute. If the Muslim Brotherhood who refer to the Palestinians as their brothers, then they would consider opening their border but will not.
Public opinion means little - the current strategy is working.
 
africanspur said:
Israel the country is not even slightly a part of the West. We don't tend to get involved in 45 year occupations
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Good lord no, we'd never be seen dead occupying a country for, you know, two or three hundred years.

Commadus said:
Israel tactics ate working. The West bank has become a sea of Palestine allotments cross crossed and controlled by Israeli checkpoints - a balkanised state. The Gaza Strip is perhaps too highly populated to enact the same strategy so restricting supplies and keeping them.on the edge serves the purpose of control.

Periodically there are flare Ups but the end game however long it takes is not a two state solution - it never was and never will happen.

This is a territorial dispute. If the Muslim Brotherhood who refer to the Palestinians as their brothers, then they would consider opening their border but will not.
Public opinion means little - the current strategy is working.
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To what end? I can't see any way the current strategy works in terms of making Israel secure long-term. All it does is further radicalise an already hugely radicalised enemy, make the entire world except the US hate Israel, and corrode its status as a democracy.
 
Fearless said:
Have you any grasp of the history of the region???

Israel was legally established via the UN, the wording included the 'UNIQUE HISTORICAL RIGHTS' of the Jews; if this is not accounted as sovereign state holder the UN and all laws become meaningless.

No such status was given to anyone else. If one invents ways to negate Israel's rights - how about the 22 Islamic states which were not established via the UN, which never existed before and its disregarding of a host of non-muslims in Arabia - like the Copts, Kurds and over a million Jews living there for centuries?

Answer me that.

Jews have never occupied another peoples' land in all their 4000 year history, nor robbed the historical names of other peoples or dumped mosques in the known holy sites of other peoples. Israel is facing genocidal demands which are based on 100% known false notions.

The triple-hank job for the Pretend Pals is a sham - its only the Jewish problem raising its head again.
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Are you kidding me? Israel wasn't formed "spontaneously". It was forced on the people of Palestine including mass immigration of Jews (who didn't even live there!) to create the new country.

And the way you talk about the UN as if it's a real democratic organization. Come on! Are you kidding yourself? If it was the Muslim countries holding power in the world do you think the "UN" will take the same decisions? Please.

Also, the establishment of Israel wasn't only forced through mass immigration but through active military assistance from the western countries.

On the other hand, which of those Muslim countries involved mass immigration of Muslims?? When the borders where drawn no people were shifted across the borders to make a new country.. They just drew the borders and let everybody live where he was living.

Another thing I noticed, there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here.. On one hand people say religions are BS and we should just get rid of those, and on the other hand they think it's justifiable to establish a whole new country based on a religion?!
 
Danny1982 said:
Are you kidding me? Israel wasn't formed "spontaneously". It was forced on the people of Palestine including mass immigration of Jews (who didn't even live there!) to create the new country.

And the way you talk about the UN as if it's a real democratic organization. Come on! Are you kidding yourself? If it was the Muslim countries holding power in the world do you think the "UN" will take the same decisions? Please.

Also, the establishment of Israel wasn't only forced through mass immigration but through active military assistance from the western countries.

On the other hand, which of those Muslim countries involved mass immigration of Muslims?? When the borders where drawn no people were shifted across the borders to make a new country.. They just drew the borders and let everybody live where he was living.

Another thing I noticed, there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here.. On one hand people say religions are BS and we should just get rid of those, and on the other hand they think it's justifiable to establish a whole new country based on a religion?!
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I don't think Israel is being established 'based on religion' but rather re-established based on a) historical facts (confirmed by biblical and non-biblical sources, archaeology) and b) the immediate necessity due to the Jewish persecution in the past one and half centuries.
 
a) was never a good rationale for establishing a state compared to self-determination

and

b) was a response to a mid-20th century situation which is no longer relevant to the 21st century.
 
peterstorey said:
a) was never a good rationale for establishing a state compared to self-determination

and

b) was a response to a mid-20th century situation which is no longer relevant to the 21st century.
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But the point still stands though, Israel wasn't established in 1948 because of "religion".
 
Mihajlovic said:
But the point still stands though, Israel wasn't established in 1948 because of "religion".
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1- It's a Jewish state. It was meant for the Jewish people to live in. How can you say it has nothing to do with the religion? If it was only meant for "people living there historically" then why was there massive immigration of Jews from around the world to the new state?

2- Many groups of people have similar history, yet you don't see the west firing rockets and forcing people out of their home to help them establish a new country. Take the Kurds for example in Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran, who also suffered a LOT, including being bombed with chemical weapons.

3- The Jews didn't live alone in Palestine historically. They lived along with other people and they should still be living with them in the same country.

4- The holocaust which made the Jews feel less safe happened in Europe, not in Palestine. If they think those people should be given the right for independence, then it should happen in the area were the disasters happened, not in another area where they were living just fine and peacefully.
 
Relevated said:
Does anyone see an islamic army forming and going head to head with Israel?
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Hasn't this already happened during the 6 day war though? Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arablia, Algeria, Morocco and many others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_day_war

In any case, if this should happen, then Palestine will find itself in a bad situation.
 
Danny1982 said:
To be honest I don't understand this at all. First of all, what do the Palestinians have to do with the holocaust?! It's like invading Iraq because of 9/11. I find it disgusting that some nations are using some terrible disasters to justify actions that are not related to those incidents at all.

So the Israelis don't feel safe because they are afraid of another holocaust?? And who did the first holocaust? The Palestinians who were sitting peacefully in their homes?? Why do we ALWAYS have to think about the emotional scar among the Israelis caused by the holocaust (which the Palestinians had nothing to do with) while neglect the emotional scar among the Palestinians that was caused by the Israelis themselves who invaded their homes?!
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Not directly linked to the current exchanges, but let's avoid revisionary history

hitler_al_husseini.jpg


GrandMufti-and-Bosnian-Muslim-Nazi-Troops.jpg
 
africanspur said:
Olmert was nothing like Netanyahu, who, as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong), has stepped up settlement building, is more belligerent and far more aggressive. Olmert has also now I believe admitted the block that are the settlements, does Netanhayhu recognise this?

Yes you do, we've had this discussion before. 'Give up' in the sense that it becomes a Palestinian capital after an adequate settlement between the 2 sides.
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Netanyahu brought settlement activity to a halt for 10 months, something Olmert never did, but the Palestinians still refused to resume talks.
 
JakeC said:
Let's look at the facts.

10 people were murdered today in a bombing, one hamas official, 9 civilians. Some where young children.

More and more bombs are going off every few minutes all over Gaza.

3 Israelis have died in this latest round of attacks.
3 Palestinian children have died today.

I'd like to know where you are getting your facts Collin, probably the BBC.
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Iron-Dome-Defense-Sytem.jpg
 
africanspur said:
Again, I agree with this. The Palestinians have had a truly shit deal. I think most people are deluding themselves if they tell themselves they wouldn't have done something similar to what Palestinians would have done in the past 60 years if they had been in their position. They have lost land, lives and dignity.

I also think that a perhaps more apt comparison when people ask what the Americans would do if someone was bombing their cities is what Americans would do if someone were to tell them that 78% of their country was to be given to the Native Americans, whether now or 200 years ago.

However, this is unfortunately all irrelevant as it really gets everyone nowhere. The Palestinians have lost out, perhaps in the distant distant future once we're all dead and everyone is peaceful, everyone can return to their ancestral homes and live side by side. Until that happens, they need to do what they can to lessen their suffering.
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Any reason why you and many others are so forgetful when it comes to the huge slice of Mandatory Palestine that is today's Jordan? Perhaps it has something to do with the Jews getting a modest chunk of the territory overall?
 
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