If you know anything about media, they usually pander their reporting to the interests of their core audience.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
If you know anything about media, they usually pander their reporting to the interests of their core audience.
that is the only card they have left to play. They will recognize Israel as a sovereign nation when they have their state.
So, Israel is expected to be a bit more fair towards a neighbouring people who wouldn't recognize its right to exist, and will most likely continue to bombard it following the next withdrawal, this time to the pre-1967 lines.
Excuse me for giving up on that international empathy you predict. We're not going to test this, and judging by history we have a very good reason not to.
These threads are pointless other than to show that this conflict has nothing to do with borders. It is about territory of course- the Arabs as a whole feel to Jewish people is not entitled to a sq inch of it.
They won't. Nnoe of them would agree to a Jewish Israel. No Arab will.
Ignore Israel
The arab nations spend billions on toys aka war machinery. Saudis to this day bring in Pakistanis to help them train their pilots
They are useless, why not use some of that money to help out the Palestinians. Build them roads, power plants, schools, factories...People speak of Israel being an occupying force, and they had boots on the ground for ages, but atm don't. Why not put together an Arab peacekeeping force - 40000-50000 strong. Get them in the conflict zone.
Lets say we go along with what Israel says...Hamas are the aggressors, these boots on the ground could ensure there were no more rockets outgoing from Gaza, if Israel still bombed Gaza, you'd have the moral high ground.
Why can't they impress on the Palestinians, with each passing day, the Israeli position grows stronger - the staus quo becomes too hard to turn back. The longer this conflict rages, the stronger Israel grows, and the worse off the Palestinians are.
Think about it....there is now a clear divide within the Palestinian independence movement. Could you say the same 5 years ago? 10 years ago?
Conquer and Divide...this is all so obvious, but apparently the current way of doing things is better
Qatar a couple of days ago promised $10mil...$10mil are you kidding me? That's not even pocket change.
Arab states have in the past agreed to peace, and kept to the agreement. That's all that matters in the end.
Attempting to make their lives so unliveable that they just give up all their demands up front is obviously never going to work.
The endgame here is fecked. Hamas missiles now reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, Netanyahu - who reasonable people like you keep voting for - has now allied with pretty much an open fascist. All it takes now is a bit of fissile material to find its way through those tunnels. You're all fecked.
you are wrong. that is the only bargaining chip they have. they know Israel is not going to just pull up stakes and leave. To say up front they will recognise Israel is to go to the table with nothing in their hands. They may not like it...in fact they will hate it. But they will do it. The alternative is this...and being beggers for generations. Living on handouts.
They're willing to recognise its right to exist as the state of Israel, not as the Jewish state of Israel. The world will agree that Israel has a right to live peacefully within its own recognized borders.
And you're making this rather extreme assumption that by entitling Palestinians to a state, they'd simply decimate Israel and all Jews almost immediately. The world stood by and disgracefully did nothing as 6 million Jews were slaughtered 70 years ago, but the dynamics of the world were different at the time, and the nemesis in question was a powerful Nazi empire which was capable of committing horrific things on a large scale.
Nowadays Israel boasts one of the most powerful and sophisticated militaries on the planet with a substantial nuclear arsenal, and has the most powerful nation on earth as its close ally. The Palestinians on the other hand lack very little military sophistication bar a few smuggled soviet weaponry, whereas the neighbouring Arab states are far too busy massacring each other, and even if they weren't none of them want to, nor are capable of engaging Israel in another war. And as I've already stated - most of them see Iran as a bigger nemesis.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that Israel and its Jewish inhabitants will be fine with a Palestinian state along side them. In fact, I'll go one further and suggest they'd actually be a lot safer.
I wish I was surprised by how spineless Obama has been on this issue, I don't think I will ever understand the American obsession with Israel. I mean how can you defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land, dehumanizing and imprisoning them?
The weapons that are being used by Israel are meant for the modern battlefield but they are using them on a civilian population (who previously owned that land) with nothing like that technology at their disposal. So why wouldn't Hamas resort to desperate tactics in an attempt to unleash hell in retaliation? As Chomsky says, yes - Israel are defending themselves. They are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier would - you need to defend yourself from backlash from the population that you are crushing.
Of course they are firing missiles into Israel. It is difficult to see another way for Palestine now but to get more extreme, to go out kicking and screaming - it looks like it is impossible to reach satisfactory solution when Israel (or at least those funding it) are this powerful.
The weapons that are being used by Israel are meant for the modern battlefield but they are using them on a civilian population (who previously owned that land) with nothing like that technology at their disposal. So why wouldn't Hamas resort to desperate tactics in an attempt to unleash hell in retaliation? As Chomsky says, yes - Israel are defending themselves. They are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier would - you need to defend yourself from backlash from the population that you are crushing.
Of course they are firing missiles into Israel. It is difficult to see another way for Palestine now but to get more extreme, to go out kicking and screaming - it looks like it is impossible to reach satisfactory solution when Israel (or at least those funding it) are this powerful.
to have the recognition of Israel a pre-condition to talks is a ridiculous expectation.
Its not the recognition of Israel as a pre-talk term which has proven problematic, its the recognition of it being a Jewish state which has been the issue.
I wish I was surprised by how spineless Obama has been on this issue, I don't think I will ever understand the American obsession with Israel. I mean how can you defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land, dehumanizing and imprisoning them?
The weapons that are being used by Israel are meant for the modern battlefield but they are using them on a civilian population (who previously owned that land) with nothing like that technology at their disposal. So why wouldn't Hamas resort to desperate tactics in an attempt to unleash hell in retaliation? As Chomsky says, yes - Israel are defending themselves. They are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier would - you need to defend yourself from backlash from the population that you are crushing.
Of course they are firing missiles into Israel. It is difficult to see another way for Palestine now but to get more extreme, to go out kicking and screaming - it looks like it is impossible to reach satisfactory solution when Israel (or at least those funding it) are this powerful.
Obama's options are limited given that the public are largely pro Israel. He ran and was elected on a pro Israel platform.
But how much is that pandering to the audience to influencing the audience? We have confirmation bias - we filter out aspects we do not like and emphasis aspects we do. But confirmation bias has to be moulded before it takes place. So the media moulds opinion and then confirmation bias kicks in which reinforces this. A self sustaining cycle.
That's how commercially driven free media works in both "the west" and the Arab world. Those who are annoyed that their preferred position isn't more prominently highlighted usually squeal about bias.
There is no way in the world the Jewish people would surrender its only expression of self-determination- the Jewish State of Israel. The 1947 UN vote was for a plan which clearly stated a creation of a JEWISH state and an Arab state. With all the respect to the well being of Gazans, as long as you and Arabs in general expect Israelis to settle for less than the 1947 partition plan you're taking the piss.
You also know that Israel's hands are pretty much tied in armed conflicts with the Palestinians for the very same equation you are plotting here. The best army in the world can't prevent it's citizens from a living hell of rocket fire for the same international community you are talking about.
As for sticking your neck, I'm afraid this won't be enough. you also argue that the Jews enjoyed a wonderful time under Muslim rule. We won't go back to facts on this, simply because they are irrelvant really. This is never going to happen. It doesn't take extermination camps to wipe out Jewish presence here. A bi-national Israel will see an end to the Jewish homeland for sheer numbers. It'd just be a question of time.
Really? How so?
That's a daft distinction though. Israel exists as a refuge for Jews, that's the whole point of it. Yes that's a shit deal for Israeli Arabs, but they do at least have representation, and they generally just get on with it.
Yes the Palestinians might well be happy with a multi-ethnic state with right of return and (pretty soon) an Arab majority. But the chances of the Israeli public agreeing to that are zero - pretty much the same as the Palestinians unilaterally recognising Israel as a Jewish state.
NewDawnFades says it's 'difficult to see another way for Palestine but to get more extreme' - well not really, they could just stop this shit and recognise Israel. The Israelis pulled out seven years ago, forcibly evicting their own settlers. They don't want Gaza, they'd love never to hear from it again. If Hamas did that, there wouldn't be any Israeli siege or incursions.
Of course, that's never going to happen, given the political dynamics of Palestinian nationalism: for them it would mean abject surrender. That's pretty much what you're asking from the Israelis.
Thank god my shift is over. How much is an ad on this site?
Reuters reporting the Hamas official(the target was killed) and the death count is now 10. The rest are his family including women and children.
This is the real problem area for me. I don't mind the Hamas guy getting killed, not because I'm pro/anti Hamas, but because he knew what he was getting into. But the death of the women and children will just be brushed aside now. By the time this operations is done and dusted, death toll will reach 100-150, with Hamas officials being a third at best, the rest are simply a case of 'too bad'.
A 100 dead, and they'll become nothing but a statistic in a couple of weeks. This is what angers me about this whole process, the dehumanization of the Palestinians. Who do these people go to for justice? The world at large? Israel? Their own leaders?
Elsewhere
Yeah. Obama is the elected representative of American people, majority of whom was pro-Israel. So in that sense it is correct that he is on the same wavelength as them.
But when you are elected to such office, it can not be just about faithfully representing the majority opinion. A lot of reforms would have never happened in US if the presidents had never taken on the people who elected them over issues than needed a change. If Obama does himself think that a change in US approach towards Israel is needed, he should try to bring about a change in US public opinion at least.
Ignore Israel
The arab nations spend billions on toys aka war machinery. Saudis to this day bring in Pakistanis to help them train their pilots
People speak of Israel being an occupying force, and they had boots on the ground for ages, but atm don't. Why not put together an Arab peacekeeping force - 40000-50000 strong. Get them in the conflict zone.
Lets say we go along with what Israel says...Hamas are the aggressors, these boots on the ground could ensure there were no more rockets outgoing from Gaza, if Israel still bombed Gaza, you'd have the moral high ground.
Why can't they impress on the Palestinians, with each passing day, the Israeli position grows stronger - the staus quo becomes too hard to turn back. The longer this conflict rages, the stronger Israel grows, and the worse off the Palestinians are.
Think about it....there is now a clear divide within the Palestinian independence movement. Could you say the same 5 years ago? 10 years ago?
Conquer and Divide...this is all so obvious, but apparently the current way of doing things is better
Qatar a couple of days ago promised $10mil...$10mil are you kidding me? That's not even pocket change.
Lets be clear here. Israel strategy is working. The longer this conflict continues the weaker the Palestinians become. Israel economy has grown stronger not weaker. The effects of their policy is not detrimental to them.
The Arab leaders find it easy to paint Israel as the great oppressor which feeds the resentment and sentiment in the Arab street. The Arab leaders have channelled agression against their own regimes to that of Israel. The current Arab Spring may change this but its too early to say.
The talk of a two state solution is simply soundbites to give the impression of compromise. Why would Israel try not to get the best deal for itself when it has the stronger hand?
Your position's just as daft. Telling them to come to the table having already recognised Israel is asking them to give up their only chip before the hand's been dealt. Never going to happen.
What do you mean by Free?
For commercial organisations they can adapty their reporting to what they feel they can gain the greates commercial success. As for the BBC who are paid for through a licence fee should be concerned with more balanced reporting. So it's not about preferred position or squealing bias its about balance.
That's what I mean. It's like the guy with a gun pointed at his head trying to dictate terms
Lets be realistic...this isn't about being 'fair' or 'right/wrong' - this is about reality and pragmatism. Israel are negotiating, if we can call it that, from a position of power.
Palestinians might not like it, but they need to accept it and try to get the best deal possible, they spent years talking about pre-67 borders and what not...I get the feeling they'll be soon begging for what they have today!
It really is a case of 'something is better than nothing'.
Forget the 67 borders - forget the vast majority 90% of those refugees coming back...try to see if you can negotiate with Israel into declaring undivided Jerusalem an international city - a UN protectorate of some sort.
Does it sound a bit unfair to the Palestinians and like Israel is the big winner? Tough - that's just the way things are going to be.
Then try to make do with what you have of the West Bank and Gaza. See if you can live peacefully with your neighbor, and make a better life for your upcoming generations. The alternative is a very bleak future - another 50 years of living in 'camps', under seige and with a never ending cycle of violence.
I dare say if Obama had a free hand he'd pressure Israel heavily. He certainly can't stand Netanyahu, and for good reason. But even the Democratic National Convention umming and erring about having Jerusalem as the capital of Israel on its fecking party platform caused a massive Republican freakout. Anything other than total loyalty to the Likud is a grand betrayal of the American people in Republican eyes, and they'd go to town. Rightly or wrongly, he doesn't want to have that fight because he has bigger priorities.
Only if you count it in economic/military terms. (And even in military terms, Hamas and Hezbollah have got a lot stronger with Iranian funding and training.)
If you look at wider society it's immensely destructive. The place was never utopia, but it was a strong secular democracy. Now it's got an increasingly powerful, rapidly growing ultra-orthodox community, the secularists with actual power are now so right-wing they're virtually fascists, and their status as a democracy becomes more and more questionable the longer they hold onto the WB. It's basically being torn three ways, between religious nutters, nationalist nutters and a captive population that contains its fair share of both. The occupation/wars are slowly killing Israel.
thanks.
That's what I mean. It's like the guy with a gun pointed at his head trying to dictate terms
Lets be realistic...this isn't about being 'fair' or 'right/wrong' - this is about reality and pragmatism. Israel are negotiating, if we can call it that, from a position of power.
Palestinians might not like it, but they need to accept it and try to get the best deal possible, they spent years talking about pre-67 borders and what not...I get the feeling they'll be soon begging for what they have today!
It really is a case of 'something is better than nothing'.
Forget the 67 borders - forget the vast majority 90% of those refugees coming back...try to see if you can negotiate with Israel into declaring undivided Jerusalem an international city - a UN protectorate of some sort.
Does it sound a bit unfair to the Palestinians and like Israel is the big winner? Tough - that's just the way things are going to be.
Then try to make do with what you have of the West Bank and Gaza. See if you can live peacefully with your neighbor, and make a better life for your upcoming generations. The alternative is a very bleak future - another 50 years of living in 'camps', under seige and with a never ending cycle of violence.
But what if they don't want to? What if they still want to fight for it? Should they be called terrorists then for doing so?
no they shouldn't be called terrorists but if they want to fight for it, then israel can fight back, no?
The religious aspect of this conflict which is purely territorial is used to bolster a weak argument - its used by both sides. No one has a religious right to any piece of land.
The problem with this territorial dispute is that it now has become an article of faith (pun intended) - and like articles of faith there is no compromise.
none of this has to be a pre-condition. But I would think it is self preservation for Israel insisting on a Jewish State.
they go to the scousers who are very good at getting #justice
http://journalturk.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/israel-palestine-map.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13701636
http://imgur.com/CCNwx
Now if this is the general direction of the loss of land then as a tactic its working - why change?
Obama is being dishonest if he thinks a deal for a two state solution can be brokered using the 1967 borders.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13701636
http://imgur.com/CCNwx
Now if this is the general direction of the loss of land then as a tactic its working - why change?
Obama is being dishonest if he thinks a deal for a two state solution can be brokered using the 1967 borders.
Definitely. That's what they went there for.
Would quality of life suffer if israel is a normal functioning democracy and not a theocratic de facto one-religion state?
Jews in america seem to have a superb time and QoL and America is not a jewish state.
That said, if palestinian and israeli arabs became the majority, the problem is could you trust them not to turn the land into a muslim state.
Like football, war/conflict really is a results based business. Who am I to tell a people to give up their fight for what they deem to their homeland? Believe me, I get that.
My parents fled Bangladesh to the US in the early 70s as Pakistan tried to rape and pillage what is now Bangladesh for wanting their own homeland.
But you have to look at the reality. Compare the State of Israel to what is was the day it was created...what it became after the wars with the arabs and what it is currently...
Who is winning? Is the fight helping or harming your cause?
I am not one of those people who spit out the bullshit that is - 'if the Palestinians put down their arms everything would be rosy.' Fighting is the only way they get the world to notice them...but surely the game is up.
I think the time is right to make the best of a bad situation.
that is a valid reason for the Jews to insist on a Jewish state.
I understand your position Neutral. I'm not giving any advices to the Palestinians either. I think it's their future and they should decide. But what I don't like is people who try to picture them as the bad terrorists who are terrorizing the poor Israelis who just want to live in peace. This is absolute BS in my opinion. If Israel was meant to be a peaceful nation they would have never chosen that location to implant it.
You have to consider that Obama has broader equities to think about. His domestic agenda, the budget, parlaying his victory into some legislative momentum on a variety of issues he ran on. Why would he squander his momentum by deliberately doing something that would create an adversarial relationship between him and the public, and Congress. The correct answer is he won't.
reports that isreal is using chemical weapons circulating.
¡Gas fuera!