Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Plechazunga said:
Good lord no, we'd never be seen dead occupying a country for, you know, two or three hundred years.



To what end? I can't see any way the current strategy works in terms of making Israel secure long-term. All it does is further radicalise an already hugely radicalised enemy, make the entire world except the US hate Israel, and corrode its status as a democracy.
Click to expand...

Israel borders are secure - they face no threat from an invading army. Israel is very secure in itself. Long term I don't see the situation changing. With the West Bank continuing to fall under Israel controls, all that will be left is what to do with the Gaza strip.

Forget the entire world - if the Arab nations really did care about the Palestinians they could have done more if they wanted. For them the Palestinian issue is to distract the populace by channeling anger against Israel.

You say the cost to Israel is its long term future - where the country will be torn by divisions but that could happen even if it had a two state solution. You are going to placate more people with a one state solution.
 
Danny1982 said:
What? Before the holocaust?! I thought they only created Israel because of the holocaust.
Click to expand...

The Zionists started buying land there in the late C19th because of centuries of persecution and their own developing sense of nationalism. The holocaust got them enough sympathy for international recognition. But by the time of the holocaust the country was already a third Jewish.

The converted the same people to Muslims. They didn't bring new masses of Muslims to replace them and kick them out of their homes.
Click to expand...

They brought a lot of Arabs and Berbers over to Spain. Also you didn't address my Pakistan point, that involved population shifts that make Israel-Palestine pale into insignificance.

BUT, the crucial thing is, if I don't have any Jewish ancestors, but want to convert to Judaism (the religion), I will also be let it based on my religion.
Click to expand...

Why's that the crucial thing? I didn't say there was zero religious dimension, I said it was predominantly ethnically-based. The number of converts is tiny. Hardly any of the huge Russian immigrations of the last two decades were practising Jews, many hadn't had one in their family for generations.

I already mentioned this contradicts the other arguments that holyland_red put forward, but even in itself, does it really make sense? Europe is REALLY concerned about the Jews, so they send them to Palestine, because Europe might kill them all!
Click to expand...

No, large swathes of continental Europe were really concerned about the Jews so they massacred them in their hundreds of thousands. The Jews began getting the feck out in the late 19th century. In the 20th, when Europe had stepped it up to massacring them in their millions, there was enough sympathy in Britain and America for recognition.

They didn't 'send them to Palestine' - they emigrated there of their own accord. The British actually tried to stop them, including sending a shipload of survivors who'd been waiting weeks to get in back to DP camps in Europe. Though the British had gone some way to helping it become a reality back in 1917, by the late thirties it had become a minefield for them.

You really need to read some history.

Right, I really am out of this thread now. Really.
 
There maybe a financial solution to this problem.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...-daily-misery-in-the-gaza-strip-a-455254.html

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/background/index.htm

How much is this costing the USA?

US aid to Jordan $676m
Egypt $1,557m
Israel $3.1bn but that rises when it includes other assistance programs like loan guarantees.

Circa around $6-7bn per year plus the added bonus of selling high end US arms to Russia and China.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Its cost the USA over $115bn in bilateral assistance since WW2

There are about 1.7m living in the Gaza Strip and another 2m plus 500k Jews living in the West bank.

I say the would be better off by offering each person $20k as long as a country was willing to accept them. You think anyone would jump at the chance?

3.7m x $20k = $74bn

$20k per person if looking at GDP per head in the middle east

Saudi Arabia $15k
Bahrain $18k
Egypt $3k
Jordan $5k
Syria $3k

It's not as hair brained as it sounds!
 
Plechazunga said:
The Zionists started buying land there in the late C19th because of centuries of persecution and their own developing sense of nationalism. The holocaust got them enough sympathy for international recognition. But by the time of the holocaust the country was already a third Jewish.
Click to expand...

I was referring to those who say that Israel exists because of the holocaust.

Plechazunga said:
They brought a lot of Arabs and Berbers over to Spain. Also you didn't address my Pakistan point, that involved population shifts that make Israel-Palestine pale into insignificance.
Click to expand...

And what happened after that? Hundreds of years later?

And about Pakistan, no external powers were involved to force the issue. Pakistan is pretty much like the US, not like Israel. Israel was created by the world powers for a reason, and IMO the priority for creating it was NOT to protect the Jews, but to establish an ally in the region. That was the point.

Plechazunga said:
Why's that the crucial thing? I didn't say there was zero religious dimension, I said it was predominantly ethnically-based. The number of converts is tiny. Hardly any of the huge Russian immigrations of the last two decades were practising Jews, many hadn't had one in their family for generations.
Click to expand...

It's crucial because there is NO state in the world like that. I can't go and be Egyptian only because I'm a Muslim. I can't go and be American only because I'm christian. That's the difference, and that's why it's crucial. It's the only state in the world that represents a religion.

Plechazunga said:
No, large swathes of continental Europe were really concerned about the Jews so they massacred them in their hundreds of thousands. The Jews began getting the feck out in the late 19th century. In the 20th, when Europe had stepped it up to massacring them in their millions, there was enough sympathy in Britain and America for recognition.

They didn't 'send them to Palestine' - they emigrated there of their own accord. The British actually tried to stop them, including sending a shipload of survivors who'd been waiting weeks to get in back to DP camps in Europe.
Click to expand...

They sent them to Palestine the moment they recognized a state for them in Palestine. If they made a state for them in another country they would have emigrated there. Only 15% of total emigration to Israel happened prior to 1948. Obama will be SLATED if he makes any laws that MAY encourage a little more Mexicans to cross the borders. How about declaring a state for them in Florida!

I'm not even mentioning here the promises they got before 1948.

Plechazunga said:
You really need to read some history.
Click to expand...

History is relative.
 
I take it we've all seen the quotes from the Israeli deputy defence minister about bringing a bigger 'Shoah' on the Palestinians? Most Jews use it to refer to the acts of the Nazis on the Jews...though the word in biblical terms means calamity.

Israeli govt officials quickly put out multiple statements about how he meant the biblical term not the way the word has been used in Modern Israel for 60+ years.

So that's two govt officials now, one explained away as personal opinion and now this with verbal gymnastics :lol:
 
Oh just one other thing, why is France getting involved in any of this? Does anyone really give a feck about what the French have to say?

The French :lol:
 
600095_10100218493643980_66028410_n.jpg
 
Jews :smug:

I wonder if there is any resentment towards the Jews that are arriving in Israel from places like Russia or Africa today from those with long standing roots, or at least those that have been in Israel since the first wave of immigrants/refugees/holocaust survivors.

Not quite a...'they took our jobs' number...but more mild mannered, 'ahh the good old days'
 
Danny1982 said:
I'm getting the feeling that you're a bit lost there.. You can't articulate a good reason why there should be a Jewish state in Palestine. You can't be serious about Amin Al-Husseini being an excuse to create Israel in Palestine. In fact! If it was sooooo unsafe for the Jews in Palestine which makes it practically as dangerous as Germany, well then I don't even need to answer this:



This doesn't make any sense now. You're giving reasons that contradict themselves by themselves.
Click to expand...

You might want to check the original Husseini post again. You're 64 years late with the Jewish state debate. Anyway, even if we read each other's posts really carefully we'd still disagree on:
* The historic ties of the Jewish nation to the Land of Israel.
* As long as the world consists of (and continues promoting) nation states denying the Jewish nation their right for one is pure discrimination.

Considering both 1 and 2, an independent Jewish state in the Land of Israel sounds more reasonable than some on here argue.

Now, how reasonable is establishing a second Palestinian state in Mandatory Palestine, with a proposed third also being half Palestinian? Reasonable enough to justify war crimes?
 
peterstorey said:
You can't have a solution that allows for a state that is predicated on ethnic/religious superiority. New Israel has to be a secular inclusive democracy not a Jewish homeland.
Click to expand...

You mean like Kosovo? Bosnia? South Sudan?

Lebanon is the closest you get to an inclusive democracy in this region, and look how well this has worked. Check the Lebanon thread to see what our resident Lebanese have to say about the mechanism.
 
Think this thing is winding down - while Bibi keeps talking about widening the scope of the operation, the IDF report only 80 sites were targeted last night.

That's well down on the previous two nights.
 
Neutral said:
Jews :smug:

I wonder if there is any resentment towards the Jews that are arriving in Israel from places like Russia or Africa today from those with long standing roots, or at least those that have been in Israel since the first wave of immigrants/refugees/holocaust survivors.

Not quite a...'they took our jobs' number...but more mild mannered, 'ahh the good old days'
Click to expand...

Of course there is. Racism is rife here, as anywhere else in the world. Human fecking nature.
 
Neutral said:
Think this thing is winding down - while Bibi keeps talking about widening the scope of the operation, the IDF report only 80 sites were targeted last night.

That's well down on the previous two nights.
Click to expand...

Still, if a ceasefire can't be reached within 12-24h the IDF is going in. At least that's what you hear in the media here.
 
Neutral said:
Say they were to go in...are the media speculating in terms of how long a ground incursion would last?

A week, 2 weeks?
Click to expand...

What was the timeline for Lebanon in 1982? Iraq? With ground incursions of this sort you know when you go in and little else.

We don't know what the aims of such incursion would be either so it's hard to predict. My guess is that increasing international pressure resulting from an inevitable mounting civilian death toll would make sure this isn't dragged for weeks.
 
Danny1982 said:
And about Pakistan, no external powers were involved to force the issue. Pakistan is pretty much like the US, not like Israel. Israel was created by the world powers for a reason, and IMO the priority for creating it was NOT to protect the Jews, but to establish an ally in the region. That was the point.
Click to expand...

Apart from the massive British influence of course?

Pakistan - created by Britain for a reason. If your basic views of history are so slanted that you twist events to fit a pre-existing narrative, then Plech is right to tell you to go and read some history again.
 
Frosty said:
Apart from the massive British influence of course?

Pakistan - created by Britain for a reason. If your basic views of history are so slanted that you twist events to fit a pre-existing narrative, then Plech is right to tell you to go and read some history again.
Click to expand...
Aye they played a huge role in parition. Seeds of which which were sown by their divide and rule policy being applied on religious basis. Partition of Bengal happened in 1905 itself. Then even during the time of independence, the British could have sided with those that wanted a United India but they did not for obvious reasons.
 
This is clearly justifiable self-defence. God only knows what those 3 kids could have done if they had a chance to grow up.
 
So the UN is now calling for a cease-fire with Ban Ki-moon visiting the region as is some Arab League delegation which will apparently show 'solidarity' with Palestinians (moral victory for the Palestinians)

All that is pointless really; until America intervenes and Israel itself is willing to stop, no amount of international pressure will end this current conflict.

I just hope this doesn't escalate into a ground incursion, hopefully a truce can be reached before it gets to that point.
 
Danny1982 said:
And about Pakistan, no external powers were involved to force the issue. Pakistan is pretty much like the US, not like Israel. Israel was created by the world powers for a reason, and IMO the priority for creating it was NOT to protect the Jews, but to establish an ally in the region. That was the point.
Click to expand...

Funny that the Irgun went round bombing the British then, given that they were so intent on founding Israel as an ally at the end of the War.

It's crucial because there is NO state in the world like that. I can't go and be Egyptian only because I'm a Muslim. I can't go and be American only because I'm christian. That's the difference, and that's why it's crucial. It's the only state in the world that represents a religion.
Click to expand...

If your mother's American, you can be an American citizen. Most countries have this kind of lineage rule. it's the same with Jews and Israel. The religion aspect is very minor in terms of immigration, since few people convert to Judaism.

Also, I think the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia might object to your assertion that no state apart from Israel represents a religion.

They sent them to Palestine the moment they recognized a state for them in Palestine. If they made a state for them in another country they would have emigrated there. Only 15% of total emigration to Israel happened prior to 1948.
Click to expand...

Again, the British actively tried to stop Jews emigrating to Palestine, to the extent of sending back a ferry full of survivors.

The best part of a million Jewish refugees came from Arab countries in the sixties. Were the Arabs trying to create an ally in the region too?

History is relative.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Relative to someone who's formally studied the period, I'm an ignoramus; relative to you, I'm AJP fecking Taylor.
 
surf said:
Move Israel to 10,000 uninhabited square miles of Alaska: away from moslems, bigger than Israel, and only 2% of Alaska, so the US could easily afford to do it.
Click to expand...

I approve of this.
 
If I convert to Judaism does that mean I can automatically gain citizenship in Israel? Or do I have to have a parent that's Jewish?
 
Commadus said:
If I convert to Judaism does that mean I can automatically gain citizenship in Israel? Or do I have to have a parent that's Jewish?
Click to expand...

I thought Judaism didn't have 'conversions' as such - your idea, I think millions in India have already thought about

Claim to be Jewish
Move to Israel
profit?
 
You can convert, it's a right pain in the arse though - or, for men, the cock - as you generally have to study for about a year, and in some denominations men are required to undergo circumcision.

The vast majority of converts do it for marriage, but there's no point in a gentile wife or husband doing it to emigrate to Israel as being married to a Jew gets you in anyway.
 
holyland red said:
You might want to check the original Husseini post again. You're 64 years late with the Jewish state debate. Anyway, even if we read each other's posts really carefully we'd still disagree on:
* The historic ties of the Jewish nation to the Land of Israel.
* As long as the world consists of (and continues promoting) nation states denying the Jewish nation their right for one is pure discrimination.

Considering both 1 and 2, an independent Jewish state in the Land of Israel sounds more reasonable than some on here argue.

Now, how reasonable is establishing a second Palestinian state in Mandatory Palestine, with a proposed third also being half Palestinian? Reasonable enough to justify war crimes?
Click to expand...


This is the thing.

People either can't count or are too lazy or both.

From one nicknamed region we now have FOUR different territories-

1. Jordan (80% Palestinian)
2. Israel (70% Jewish, 20% Arab (Palestinian if they had fled))
3. West Bank(100% Palestinian)
4. Gaza (100% Palestinian)
 
Four territories! Those lucky, lucky Palestinians.

Shame one is under minority Hashemite rule, two are under Israeli rule, and the other is a tiny shithole under permanent siege. But still... they've basically hit the jackpot.
 
Fearless said:
This is the thing.

People either can't count or are too lazy or both.

From one nicknamed region we now have FOUR different territories-

1. Jordan (80% Palestinian)
2. Israel (70% Jewish, 20% Arab (Palestinian if they had fled))
3. West Bank(100% Palestinian)
4. Gaza (100% Palestinian)
Click to expand...

lol It seems you can't count either.

West Bank is not 100% Palestinian. 500k Jewish settlers live there with circa 2m Palestinians.

Fearless in the face of facts! :lol:
 
Does Hashemite Jordan have the right to exist, with it being the creation of a 1940's superpower that denies it's Palestinian population equal rights?

Why shouldn't there be on the table a solution that includes that large chunk of the territory once called Mandatory Palestine?
 
Sorry for the stupid question which was explained here before but it's not still clear to me.

If I convert to Jewish, does this mean that I can really apply for Israeli's passport? Or this is only one of the pre-requisites?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.