Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Neutral said:
HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH

220 pages, a zillion posts, good/bad/biased/bigoted, but this post takes the cake.

Why are settlements, whether legal or illegal (I like that...) a problem for a future Palestinian State. lololol

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I have mostly stayed out of this thread this time around, because, I've come to realize, there will never ever be a viable Palestinian State, so Palestinians should simply give up. The world at large does not care or if it does care, it has decided the Israeli POV is more righteous.

That is the reality. There is no massive Jewish conspiracy - people just think Israel is right.

If you have 300 days of quiet in the ME - Israeli settlements continue to be built and no one talks about Palestinian Statehood. If you have Palestinian violence (stabbing to death random people is a great way to win sympathy lads), they are threatened with even more settlement expansion and of course everyone says - 'how can there be a Palestinian State, look at how evil they are'.

So Game Over.

That's it. No analysis needed, no explanations required - there simply will never be a Palestinian State. Anyone, I mean it, anyone who tells you different is a liar.
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Yes, why would an Israeli presence in an independent, Palestinian state be a problem? It would be an Arab state where the majority of population would always be Arab, what's the worry? Or do you need a completely ethnically clean Palestine? That's the ridiculousness of this position. Rather than having the 400k Jews contribute economically and tax them, you'd rather kick them out. Unless there's simply no room in the inn.

In a few previous posts we discussed whether the settlements are legal or illegal, no need to repeat it, feel free to take a look.

You say there simply will never be a Palestinian state. The only reason for that, however, is that the Palestinians don't seem to want it. Beside the fact that they could have had a state twice already, correct?

Let me conclude with the obligatory "there already is a Palestinian state and it's called Jordan." Isn't Jordan also Palestinian, historical homeland?
 
Mihajlovic said:
Turns out the Eritrean guy died of his wounds. The randomness of these attacks is insane, wrong time and wrong place and that's it. As to what's driving young Arab men and women to randomly attack and kill innocent people at bus stops I suggest pathological hatred. Nothing else.
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Eritrean guy was killed by Israeli not Palestinians.
 
Mihajlovic said:
You say there simply will never be a Palestinian state. The only reason for that, however, is that the Palestinians don't seem to want it. Beside the fact that they could have had a state twice already, correct?

Let me conclude with the obligatory "there already is a Palestinian state and it's called Jordan." Isn't Jordan also Palestinian, historical homeland?
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If Carlsberg made reality checks...
 
Mihajlovic said:
You say there simply will never be a Palestinian state. The only reason for that, however, is that the Palestinians don't seem to want it. Beside the fact that they could have had a state twice already, correct?

Let me conclude with the obligatory "there already is a Palestinian state and it's called Jordan." Isn't Jordan also Palestinian, historical homeland?
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Wrong.

Both the Israeli far right and the militants from the Palestinian side rejected the Oslo approach and many other attempts at creating a Palestinian state.

Calling Jordan a Palestinian state is another giant leap in foolishness. Israel's policy over the last few decades has been to import people and gradually steal land from the indigenous Palestinians to house these imports so they act as buffer zones (unpaid policing). In many cases, these people who Miha says are Jordanians still have deeds to their lands and homes throughout the occupied lands.
 
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This latest round of violence is basically an upsurge of frustration with all the hopelessness. It is hardly going to go away unless major sacrifices are made by stakeholders on both sides.
 
Sultan, I can believe that many Palestinians have the deeds to their land etc. but something that was mentioned earlier is that Palestinians do not legally own every single inch of the land in the West Bank. And in regards to Jordan- have Palestinian Arabs ever owned land East of the river Jordan? Do they still own it?
 
Sultan said:
This latest round of violence is basically an upsurge of frustration with all the hopelessness. It is hardly going to go away unless major sacrifices are made by stakeholders on both sides.
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And the only way how to deal with frustration and hopelessness is to stab any random person you see on the street in the neck? Or ram your car into people and finish them off afterwards with a meat cleaver? This is completely mental. There was this Orthodox Jew a few months ago who started stabbing people at a gay parade and killed a teenager- he was probably frustrated with the secular government and decline in morality but it still takes a hate-filled or deranged person to actually ram a five inch blade in someone's body.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Sultan, I can believe that many Palestinians have the deeds to their land etc. but something that was mentioned earlier is that Palestinians do not legally own every single inch of the land in the West Bank. And in regards to Jordan- have Palestinian Arabs ever owned land East of the river Jordan? Do they still own it?
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Restrictions that apply to Palestinians In the West Bank include:
Building permits denied
Arab villages demolished
Access roads blocked off
Water,sewage,electricity rejected and unavailable
Road blocks and check points-which severally disrupt Palestinians access to medical care in emergencies, workers can't get to their jobs on time, can't visit relatives etc.
Land seized and turned over to Jewish settlers

All this results in reduction of Palestinians habitation in the West bank and expansion of Israeli settlements.

Do people seriously expect the Palestinians to be happy with this?

The occupying force are clearly discriminating against Arabs.
 
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Neutral said:
HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH

220 pages, a zillion posts, good/bad/biased/bigoted, but this post takes the cake.

Why are settlements, whether legal or illegal (I like that...) a problem for a future Palestinian State. lololol

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have mostly stayed out of this thread this time around, because, I've come to realize, there will never ever be a viable Palestinian State, so Palestinians should simply give up. The world at large does not care or if it does care, it has decided the Israeli POV is more righteous.

That is the reality. There is no massive Jewish conspiracy - people just think Israel is right.

If you have 300 days of quiet in the ME - Israeli settlements continue to be built and no one talks about Palestinian Statehood. If you have Palestinian violence (stabbing to death random people is a great way to win sympathy lads), they are threatened with even more settlement expansion and of course everyone says - 'how can there be a Palestinian State, look at how evil they are'.

So Game Over.

That's it. No analysis needed, no explanations required - there simply will never be a Palestinian State. Anyone, I mean it, anyone who tells you different is a liar.
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Might is right..,everything else is rhetoric.

Get real, no one is going to do something purely because its the right thing to do. I as a muslim have an opinion that the palestinians got a hard deal but i wont call for my country to cut ties with israel because it is beneficial to India. I dont remember palestinians giving a shit about us when britain were occupying us. Despite India's backing palestine they aligned with pakistan (who sent its military personnel to massacre the palestinians) against us., they could have stayed neutral. Its got nothing to do with us except expressing our moral outrage which is justified.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Sultan, I can believe that many Palestinians have the deeds to their land etc. but something that was mentioned earlier is that Palestinians do not legally own every single inch of the land in the West Bank. And in regards to Jordan- have Palestinian Arabs ever owned land East of the river Jordan? Do they still own it?
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Palestinians have lived in that part of the world for centuries as have significant minority of Jews. However, Israel as a country did not exist prior to 1948. When it was declared a nation that year over 250,000 Palestinian were expelled or had to flee for safety. Go figure who has lost land.
 
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VidaRed said:
Might is right..,everything else is rhetoric.

Get real, no one is going to do something purely because its the right thing to do. I as a muslim have an opinion that the palestinians got a hard deal but i wont call for my country to cut ties with israel because it is beneficial to India. I dont remember palestinians giving a shit about us when britain were occupying us. Despite India's backing palestine they aligned with pakistan (who sent its military personnel to massacre the palestinians) against us., they could have stayed neutral. Its got nothing to do with us except expressing our moral outrage which is justified.
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Ah, good day, we agree on something. Although I guess we have in past too when it comes to India's relations with Pak :D
 
Mihajlovic said:
And the only way how to deal with frustration and hopelessness is to stab any random person you see on the street in the neck? Or ram your car into people and finish them off afterwards with a meat cleaver? This is completely mental. There was this Orthodox Jew a few months ago who started stabbing people at a gay parade and killed a teenager- he was probably frustrated with the secular government and decline in morality but it still takes a hate-filled or deranged person to actually ram a five inch blade in someone's body.
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Have I condoned any act of violence anywhere against Jews despite the issues facing them daily? Those committing acts of violence are in my opinion causing a disservice to a rightful cause.

You're quick to highlight Palestinian violence but I don't hear you ever criticising Israels' use of brutal force against Palestinians. You're suffering from enemies of my enemy are my friends syndrome. You need to move on from the Balkans war against Bosnian Muslims and try being impartial and fair.
 
VidaRed said:
I as a muslim have an opinion that the palestinians got a hard deal
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A Muslim's duty is to support the truth and be objective regardless of faith, colour or nationality. If people of any other faith are correct then we should go against people of our faith. It's correct to be even witnesses against our own parents or kids when they're in the wrong.
 
Sultan said:
A Muslim's duty is to support the truth and be objective regardless of faith, colour or nationality. If people of any other faith are correct then we should go against people of our faith. It's correct to be even witnesses against our own parents or kids when they're in the wrong.
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Very well said. There are of Muslims who support Israel, and plenty of Jews who support the Palestinian cause. At the end of the day our humanity should demand that nobody gets hurt. Enough innocent blood has been spilt already in the name of faith.
 
Sultan said:
Have I condoned any act of violence anywhere against Jews despite the issues facing them daily? Those committing acts of violence are in my opinion causing a disservice to a rightful cause.

You're quick to highlight Palestinian violence but I don't hear you ever criticising Israels' use of brutal force against Palestinians. You're suffering from enemies of my enemy are my friends syndrome. You need to move on from the Balkans war against Bosnian Muslims and try being impartial and fair.
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As per my earlier posts, I think it's utterly disgusting when innocent Palestinians are killed/maimed by extremist Israeli's. They are terrorists and deserve to be punished as such.
 
Fearless said:
As per my earlier posts, I think it's utterly disgusting when innocent Palestinians are killed/maimed by extremist Israeli's. They are terrorists and deserve to be punished as such.
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The problem is it's not just extremist Israelis killing them - the government and army is playing a part too.

I'm sure much of that can be put down to Israel attempting to defend itself but that might not be a valid enough excuse to someone whose house just got demolished because they are related to a suspected terrorist.

Of course you can say the same about the Palestinians and Hamas.
 
Fearless said:
Very well said. There are of Muslims who support Israel, and plenty of Jews who support the Palestinian cause. At the end of the day our humanity should demand that nobody gets hurt. Enough innocent blood has been spilt already in the name of faith.
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Yep.

Add nationalism to the list too.
 
So you learn something new everyday...Hitler and the Nazis weren't actually that bad....

Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews, he was simply led astray by an evil Muslim.

I'd like to thank Bibi for educating me and hopefully this will now absolve the Germans and Europe from their collective guilt of the last 70+ years....it wasn't your fault - it was the evil Muslims.

What's that...I'm making this up? Oh why don't I quote the sitting PM of Israel.

img
 
There's even a video..from 3:00



Not that it even needs to be debunked, but while we're at it...

..we do know that by March of that year Hitler was openly talking about a need to make sure the “Jewish-Bolshevik elite” would be killed, as well as “all Jews and card-carrying Communists” in the lands that Germany was taking from the Soviet Union; this order was carried out by Heinrich Himmler, who delivered these instructions to the Einsatzgruppen on March 13th, 1941. The phrase “complete solution of the Jewish question” was first uttered by Nazi leader Hermann Goering who gave the task to SS General Reinhardt Heydrich on July 31st, 1941. The killing centers in Poland were organized under so-called Operation Reinhard, and work on these units began in October 1941, a month before the Mufti visited Jerusalem.
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http://www.alternet.org/world/israe...tinians-who-convinced-hitler-exterminate-jews
 
This (while far more shocking) ties into a nice article I read - Ann Coulter, virulent Israel-backer made some blatant antisemitic remarks. They were hardly reported, she is still in her job at Fox News, and life goes on in general.
It's quite a crazy world when flat antisemitism is excused because of Zionism while anti-Zionists are routinely called antisemites.
 
Fearless said:
A little historical misinformation....
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FTFY. Obviously you didn't bother to read any of the posts above and went to you favourite Youtube video. Some mroe here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-for-palestinian-grand-mufti-holocaust-claim

Among those questioning Netanyahu’s interpretation of history was Prof Dan Michman, the head of the Institute of Holocaust Research at Bar-Ilan University and head of the International Institute for Holocaust Research at Yad Vashem. He said that while Hitler did indeed meet the mufti, this happened after the Final Solution began.

Yad Vashem’s chief historian, Prof Dina Porat, told the Israeli news website Ynet that Netanyahu’s claims were incorrect: “You cannot say that it was the mufti who gave Hitler the idea to kill or burn Jews. It’s not true. Their meeting occurred after a series of events that point to this.”
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I'm sure they covertly want to kill Jews too.
 
Sultan said:
Have I condoned any act of violence anywhere against Jews despite the issues facing them daily? Those committing acts of violence are in my opinion causing a disservice to a rightful cause.

You're quick to highlight Palestinian violence but I don't hear you ever criticizing Israels' use of brutal force against Palestinians. You're suffering from enemies of my enemy are my friends syndrome. You need to move on from the Balkans war against Bosnian Muslims and try being impartial and fair.
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@Sultan what I meant was that those random acts of violence and cruelty are not motivated by 'frustration and hopelessness' as you called it, but that there is something wrong with those people in the mental health area. There is no recognizable fight for a cause anymore, the attackers are not taking hostages and demanding their comrades to be released from jail, for example, there are no negotiation attempts, no political speeches, nothing. They go out with one intention only and that is to kill. It's just causing terror for terror's sake. There's a paper I read recently which talks about how rather than using violence against innocent civilians as a means to accomplish rational political ends, today's attackers use rational political goals as a convenient means to inflict violence against innocent civilians. The problem here is obviously that through this kind of violence the Palestinians will achieve absolutely nothing and it's been like this since day one.

The same applies for the Jewish and any other extremists who randomly murder innocent civilians. There is a different approach apparent, however, in the way how the Israeli judiciary system deals with it. The government openly calls it terrorism, there is a strong message urging people to restrain from violence, there are investigations and arrests made and the perpetrators convicted and jailed. At the same time the Palestinian representatives are basking in joy that another martyr has died 'for the cause', and glorify and justify the act of violence. Do you not think that there is a difference there?
 
Whether or not individual Palestinians are 'driven' to these acts of violence by 'desperation' is of course very difficult to tell, and presumably every case is different and has its own dynamic. What's interesting though is that the 'desperation' explanation is not something you're likely to encounter too often when looking at either popular or 'official' Palestinian rhetoric relating to the violence - rather than mindless victims the perpetrators are seen as heroes carrying out a noble act that the rest ought to aspire to.

This is a disconnect that can be observed in looking at the Palestinian case in a broader sense. To many Western onlookers they are victims, they have 'lost' the conflict, the Israelis' strength is overwhelming, they have no agency or power to change things, they are isolated, the world has forgotten them, etc. These are points often made by Palestinians and their supporters themselves to a Western audience. Yet whatever the truth of all this, on the ground Palestinians will often express quite contrary views - they are destined to triumph eventually, either militarily or demographically, they have the support of 1.5 billions Muslims, the Jews are no more than the new Crusaders and look what happened to them, the Israelis are cowards/stupid, etc.

In a way it's testament to a remarkable ability to keep their cause relevant and in the news, and not let the head drop no matter the price and however 'desperate' things may seem. I think, with the world's eyes on Syria and last summer's Gaza war fading from the memory, this stabbing campaign is in large part related to that.

On the other hand you have to question that price when it involves indoctrinating such hatred and violence across the board, and when the whole process of continuing the resistance is based around the outright refusal to understand why the Jews are there in the first place and indeed the wholesale rejection of the idea of the Jews as a 'people' rather than simply adherents of a particular religion. That kind of campaign is aimed not at reaching a negotiated agreement with the Jews, but is as they see it a necessary condition to achieve 'victory', i.e. the end of the Jewish state/Zionist project.
 
There's material out there analyzing old and new terrorism, here's an old article that states similar thoughts on the 'new terrorists whose "..violence is expressive, not strategic or instrumental. Destruction is an end in itself, rather than the means to an end."

Also, "the “new” terrorists seek only to destroy, and their deaths will result only in a place in paradise, not political change." This is the absurdity of it all, the acceptance that their action will not change anything to the better and cause a significant political change- or perhaps it will but only to a further disadvantage and worsening of the current conditions etc.
 
@Mihajlovic

Can you provide any insight or read any papers outlining the reasons why beatings, torture, imprisonment and killings of Palestinians have become so commonplace? Depriving water to Palestinian farmers, restrictions on freedom making it difficult or even impossible to visit family, go to work, thus causing economic hardship. Christian and Muslim Palestinians being prevented from Jerusalem’s religious sites, etc....
 
Sultan said:
@Mihajlovic

Can you provide any insight or read any papers outlining the reasons why beatings, torture, imprisonment and killings of Palestinians have become so commonplace? Depriving water to Palestinian farmers, restrictions on freedom making it difficult or even impossible to visit family, go to work, thus causing economic hardship. Christian and Muslim Palestinians being prevented from Jerusalem’s religious sites, etc....
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What you're talking about are phenomena that have a historical context. None of the things you mention have started occurring in a vacuum, obviously there is a history which can explain its development and progression. People point out to the siege and the wall and other things but it wasn't as if in 1948 as soon as they got their independence Israel started with the construction of a wall. As a part of their political program. Maybe the current injustice has started becoming commonplace because nothing makes a difference anymore and Israel, despite being a secular democracy and as such adhering to its principles, at some point just started gravitating towards incredulity and started doing just whatever they feel is necessary in order to keep safe. I can't comment on the deprivation of water you've mentioned, not familiar with it. But the problem regarding the restriction of movement and all the terrible inconvenience which is caused as a result, you could point it all down to security issues.
 
Mihajlovic said:
What you're talking about are phenomena that have a historical context. None of the things you mention have started occurring in a vacuum, obviously there is a history which can explain its development and progression. People point out to the siege and the wall and other things but it wasn't as if in 1948 as soon as they got their independence Israel started with the construction of a wall. As a part of their political program. Maybe the current injustice has started becoming commonplace because nothing makes a difference anymore and Israel, despite being a secular democracy and as such adhering to its principles, at some point just started gravitating towards incredulity and started doing just whatever they feel is necessary in order to keep safe. I can't comment on the deprivation of water you've mentioned, not familiar with it. But the problem regarding the restriction of movement and all the terrible inconvenience which is caused as a result, you could point it all down to security issues.
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I have to disagree. It's been incessant and well planned overpowering of a people since the day Israel was established in 1948. The Israeli forces drove the Palestinians from their homes and dismantled 100's of Palestinian villages and towns so that they would have nothing to return. As a consequence, there are millions of Palestinians refugees forced to live in appalling conditions in refugee camps with little hope for the future.

Security issues are a result of terrible human rights abuses for over 60 years. Causes and effects.
 
Sultan said:
Have I condoned any act of violence anywhere against Jews despite the issues facing them daily? Those committing acts of violence are in my opinion causing a disservice to a rightful cause.

You're quick to highlight Palestinian violence but I don't hear you ever criticising Israels' use of brutal force against Palestinians. You're suffering from enemies of my enemy are my friends syndrome. You need to move on from the Balkans war against Bosnian Muslims and try being impartial and fair.
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To be fair to him, I think that Serbia has good relations with Palestine. IIRC, they voted pro a Palestinian state in UN, and Palestine have an ambasador in Belgrade.
 
Sultan said:
@Mihajlovic, @2cents

Some very interesting points. I have already said any violence against innocents is doing their cause disservice.
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I recognize that @Sultan, and for what it's worth I've always maintained that in resisting the Zionist project and the creation of Israel, the Palestinians were behaving pretty much exactly how all people in history have acted in similar situations. Even the occasional outbreak of especially brutal violence is hardly unprecedented in such cases, e.g. see here for an example of those famously 'peaceful' Tibetans burning Han Chinese 'occupiers' to death in riots a few years back - http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/cr...-in-tibet-riots/2008/03/15/1205472170804.html

What seems to me to be unique is the official campaign of incitement and demonization conducted by the main Palestinian factions in an effort to maintain some sort of control over their restless populations, for which they receive the backing of a substantial part of the Arab and Islamic worlds with their "For the Palestinians, everything and anything" attitude. I just wonder what kind of society a Palestine 'liberated' through such methods will be.
 
Sultan said:
I have to disagree. It's been incessant and well planned overpowering of a people since the day Israel was established in 1948. The Israeli forces drove the Palestinians from their homes and dismantled 100's of Palestinian villages and towns so that they would have nothing to return. As a consequence, there are millions of Palestinians refugees forced to live in appalling conditions in refugee camps with little hope for the future.

Security issues are a result of terrible human rights abuses for over 60 years. Causes and effects.
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You missed out the part where all the combined Arab armies attacked Israel, leading to the refugee crisis itself.

Surely a mistake on your part Sultan?
 
Sultan said:
I have to disagree. It's been incessant and well planned overpowering of a people since the day Israel was established in 1948. The Israeli forces drove the Palestinians from their homes and dismantled 100's of Palestinian villages and towns so that they would have nothing to return. As a consequence, there are millions of Palestinians refugees forced to live in appalling conditions in refugee camps with little hope for the future.

Security issues are a result of terrible human rights abuses for over 60 years. Causes and effects.
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I don't know what you mean by a "well planned overpowering of a people since the day Israel was established in 1948". For all you know the Palestinians could have accepted the partition plan and two independent states would have developed side by side with whatever movements of people taking place freely. I'm not aware of any Israeli plans to overpower anyone. Weren't they just happy that they got a state even if half of it was nothing but desert?

Why don't you reflect on the role of the Arab leaders prior to the attack? Jews were massacred by Arabs before there ever was a state of Israel, before any settlements were build and before any land was 'occupied', and before any expressed desire for a independent Palestinian state- so what could have possibly be the reason for the start of an armed conflict when there simply wasn't an accumulation of grievances, no history of injustice and human rights abuses, no collective trauma, etc.

I also don't understand why today in 2015 there is no future for millions of Palestinian refugees because Israel dismantled hundreds of villages nearly seventy years ago. That just seems bizarre. That would be like me telling my nephews and nieces, whose parents have been kicked out of Croatia and who currently live in Serbia that they do not have a future unless they return to their village and their house in Croatia to which their dad still hold the deeds and the keys.
 
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2cents said:
He's genuinely deranged if he actually believes that. More likely that he's just being cynical in which case he's also guilty of a form of incitement here. Either way, to quote an old professor of mine in today's NYT, the speech is "a lie" and "a disgrace".

Netanyahu, Saying Palestinian Mufti Inspired Holocaust, Draws Broad Criticism

JERUSALEM — Israeli historians and opposition politicians on Wednesday joined Palestinians in denouncing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel for saying it was a Palestinian, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, who gave Hitler the idea of annihilating European Jews during World War II.

Mr. Netanyahu said in a speech to the Zionist Congress on Tuesday night that “Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews,” according to a transcript provided by his office. The prime minister said that the mufti, Haj Amin al-Husseini, protested to Hitler that “they’ll all come here,” referring to Palestine.

“ ‘So what should I do with them?’ ” Mr. Netanyahu quoted Hitler as asking Mr. Husseini. “He said, ‘Burn them.’ ”

Prof. Meir Litvak, a historian at Tel Aviv University, called the speech “a lie” and “a disgrace.” Prof. Moshe Zimmermann, a specialist of German history at Hebrew University, said, “With this, Netanyahu joins a long line of people that we would call Holocaust deniers.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/w...draws-broad-criticism.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0​
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To be fair I think you need to listen to the whole speech and not just take out that one passage. Netanyahu was talking in the context of Israel being accused to want to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque, which he said is a lie as much as the lie that was told my the Mufti nearly hundred years ago, who also accused Israel of the same thing- the same Mufti who met with Hitler etc etc etc.... However incorrect, the context of the point he was trying to make was all about the accusation that Israel wants to destroy the Muslim place of worship. The topic of his speech wasn't Hitler or the road to holocaust.
 
2cents said:
I recognize that @Sultan, and for what it's worth I've always maintained that in resisting the Zionist project and the creation of Israel, the Palestinians were behaving pretty much exactly how all people in history have acted in similar situations. Even the occasional outbreak of especially brutal violence is hardly unprecedented in such cases, e.g. see here for an example of those famously 'peaceful' Tibetans burning Han Chinese 'occupiers' to death in riots a few years back - http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/cr...-in-tibet-riots/2008/03/15/1205472170804.html

What seems to me to be unique is the official campaign of incitement and demonization conducted by the main Palestinian factions in an effort to maintain some sort of control over their restless populations, for which they receive the backing of a substantial part of the Arab and Islamic worlds with their "For the Palestinians, everything and anything" attitude. I just wonder what kind of society a Palestine 'liberated' through such methods will be.
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I'd hazard a guess...
 
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