But he can go here instead....
http://news.yahoo.com/ceremony-hono...3bmpvBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
But he can go here instead....
http://news.yahoo.com/ceremony-hono...3bmpvBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--
Good decision. Need to ensure Jerusalem remains Israeli and up the Jewish population.
The sooner you (well not you personally - you aren't Palestinian lol) accept the reality of it, you'll see how much better things are.
I've said it repeatedly in this thread - Palestinians fell into the trap of allowing this to become a narrative about religion and not land, home, freedom.
Tbf - Israel and the Israeli lobby are formidable - even more so than the IDF.
Palestinian Christians used to make up something like 10% of the population (People like George Habash were central to the struggle). Yet, it's all muslim this...Islam this...Jews that.
You see how 9/11 changed the story? Bibi and Israeli supporters don't miss an opportunity to link the Palestinian cause with AQ/ISIS and the like. End result - the Palestinian struggle for statehood is now lumped in together with events like the massacre in Paris.
Tbf this shouldn't even be called East Jerusalem. It's actually north and not even close to Jerusalem
It just feels like the Palestinians are continuously missing out on opportunities because they are still sticking to the old, post-67 narrative. There's got to be some fresh, progressive ideas out there. Instead it's all just groundhog day, the same old repeated over and over again. Nothing is moving forward for them.
What? You're not making any sense or logical argument here. I don't know what to address above which relates to that tweet you linked.
Why should they accept the reality of it? If it is Palestinian land, and they're building settlements on it, then it is an illegal settlement. This breaks the Geneva convention, something they've done perpetually.
No one is 'falling into any trap here'. The land is being stolen from them. The land, which is their home, and their freedom to roam on it. It is illegal, and turning a blind eye or 'accepting the reality' is a stupid thing to say. They shouldn't have to accept it.
Palestinian Christians have a claim to that land. No where in my post have mentioned religion. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can think illegal settlements in land is a 'good decision'.
The tweet was straight forward. Wasn't much to discuss really...it's not the first settlement and it certainly won't be the last.
The reality they have to accept is - Israel will continue to do as it wishes. No UN resolutions, no amount of bleating on the internet will change that. It's a good decision for Israel - I didn't say it was a good deal, fair or welcome news for Palestinians.
This is a fact. You with me so far?
They have to accept it - because the deal Ehud Barak and Clinton offered up for Arafat in 2000 was NOT fair - but it was as good as it was going to get. Do you think the Palestinians are in a better place in terms of negotiation strength today? You think the right of return/land swaps/settlements are going to be discussed with a more favorable attitude in 2015?
I then moved the conversation in a different direction....223 pages, everything there is to be said, has already been said tbf
I raised the issue of Palestinian Christians because - by making the Palestinian struggle an issue for the wider Muslim Ummah - it has done it irreparable harm. It should have been about Palestinian Nationalism, not become a propaganda tool for idiots in Bangladesh, Pakistan or Iraq.
The world we live in isn't about fair or truth - it's about who most effectively gets their message across (and of course having the might of the West behind you lol)
It's all about perceptions - you see how European states and US State Governors (hell, Rupert Murdoch) have been going on about Christian Syrians. There is sympathy for them - because they are like 'us'. Palestinian Christians could have done the same for their cause.
So, apathy? That's a pathetic retort.The tweet was straight forward. Wasn't much to discuss really...it's not the first settlement and it certainly won't be the last.
The reality they have to accept is - Israel will continue to do as it wishes. No UN resolutions, no amount of bleating on the internet will change that. It's a good decision for Israel - I didn't say it was a good deal, fair or welcome news for Palestinians.
This is a fact. You with me so far?
They have to accept it - because the deal Ehud Barak and Clinton offered up for Arafat in 2000 was NOT fair - but it was as good as it was going to get. Do you think the Palestinians are in a better place in terms of negotiation strength today? You think the right of return/land swaps/settlements are going to be discussed with a more favorable attitude in 2015?
I then moved the conversation in a different direction....223 pages, everything there is to be said, has already been said tbf
I raised the issue of Palestinian Christians because - by making the Palestinian struggle an issue for the wider Muslim Ummah - it has done it irreparable harm. It should have been about Palestinian Nationalism, not become a propaganda tool for idiots in Bangladesh, Pakistan or Iraq.
The world we live in isn't about fair or truth - it's about who most effectively gets their message across (and of course having the might of the West behind you lol)
It's all about perceptions - you see how European states and US State Governors (hell, Rupert Murdoch) have been going on about Christian Syrians. There is sympathy for them - because they are like 'us'. Palestinian Christians could have done the same for their cause.
I'm not having a go at you - and I fully understand that no one is really going to change the world on RedCafe - but this type of attitude really irks me.
The bolded bit seems a bit ironic considering the rest of your post.
It is pathetic.
But, as far as I'm concerned the media war has been lost. Of course it's a bit rich for me to tell Palestinians - don't give a damn about your homeland - and I doubt those fighting the good fight give a toss what I say (lol).
I sympathize with the right of the Palestinian people to have a homeland and I sympathize with their very legitimate cause - a cause that has been misused by various local and global actors.
However as I asked in my earlier post - Do you think the Palestinians are in a better place in terms of negotiation strength today? Do you think the right of return/land swaps/settlements are going to be discussed with a more favorable attitude in 2015?
I genuinely can not see a viable two state solution in the near short to medium term (5-20 years)
There's a channel that has a bunch of videos exactly like that...basically the 2 sides have diametrically opposed views of exactly the same events. Even the definitions of "peace" and "2-state solution" are different.
Finally some justice for Muhammad Abu Khdair.
January I think... no doubt one or both sides extremists will kick off at the verdict
Why was Diablo's post removed?
Just got back from a trip out to Israel and Palestine. I try to get out at least once a year to catch up with friends. Jerusalem was as tense as I've ever felt it and I was woken up by Israeli raids into Ramallah one night but I largely stayed one step ahead of the clashes as it's normally pretty possible to do with a bit of caution and pre-planning. My friends in Palestine are worried, though. Nobody has control of this latest wave of attacks. It's just kids, frustrated and pissed off at a million broken promises making a desperate decision and killing and dying for it.
A recent poll says the majority of Palestinians support the knife attacks - http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=769346 "Support" is a strange word. From the anecdotal evidence of chats I had over the last week or so (which obviously are with a much smaller and less diverse sample of people) I'd say that it's less "support" and more "understand". I don't think it's the 3rd intifada - I don't think there's the energy or will for that amongst large swathes of the Palestinian population at the moment - but it might become so if nothing changes.
I've seen Saeb Erekat in a number of interviews recently (Hardtalk with Stephen Sackur and UpFront with Mehdi Hasan spring to mind) where he's hinted at the dissolution of the PA and forcing Israel to take full responsibility of an occupying force - honestly, I don't think the PA are anywhere near actually doing it but it seems like the best move to me and to a lot of my Palestinian friends. There's a general acceptance that two state is dead now - settlement building, especially in East Jerusalem, means that save a monumental and genuine effort which nobody really envisages from either side, the moment has passed. There's a feeling that it's time for Palestinians to start demanding one state and a vote.
A recent poll says the majority of Palestinians support the knife attacks - http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=769346 "Support" is a strange word. From the anecdotal evidence of chats I had over the last week or so (which obviously are with a much smaller and less diverse sample of people) I'd say that it's less "support" and more "understand". I don't think it's the 3rd intifada - I don't think there's the energy or will for that amongst large swathes of the Palestinian population at the moment - but it might become so if nothing changes.
I've seen Saeb Erekat in a number of interviews recently (Hardtalk with Stephen Sackur and UpFront with Mehdi Hasan spring to mind) where he's hinted at the dissolution of the PA and forcing Israel to take full responsibility of an occupying force - honestly, I don't think the PA are anywhere near actually doing it but it seems like the best move to me and to a lot of my Palestinian friends. There's a general acceptance that two state is dead now - settlement building, especially in East Jerusalem, means that save a monumental and genuine effort which nobody really envisages from either side, the moment has passed. There's a feeling that it's time for Palestinians to start demanding one state and a vote.
I wish they would. We all know that the two-state solution was just a strawman anyway, so it's at least honest that the palestine arabs want the whole cake really - without the Jews.
There were videos of these 'people' celebrating deaths of 100s of Gazans last year during 'Protective Edge' and making a spectacle of going out to watch bombs get dropped.
People getting lax with their sharing of videos.
How are they dancing with so many sharp objects around? Were the Men Without Hats playing?
To what should one feel the greatest despair, that children live with such a desire to kill (either through circumstance or because they have been trained so), or that a security guard gunned down a young girl and likely views it as a commonplace? *sigh*
On the plus side, at least the Hamas leaders are multi-millionaires.
EDIT: multi-billionaires
EDIT: multi-billionaires
Is that true?
Is Gaza a prison camp?
Yes - you can't even get married there without the 'democratically elected" Hamas shooting up your wedding day.
@Fearless - what do you think about the Gazan people? Let's put Hamas to one side - what do you think about them and their status?
I haven't met any for a good 15 years. Last time I did they were a very happy go lucky lot, came in and out of Israel to work, visit relatives and such like. Feel sorry for them now, lumbered with a corrupt, psychopathic Ferrari ridden mafia for a government. Not that Fatah are much better - they prefer Lamborghini's.
BTW My most recent interaction with Israeli (Muslim) Arabs were the absolutely wonderful medical team who treated my mum's cancer in Tel Aviv. Forever in their debt.
Ok - I was getting at the fact that they live in a ghetto prison and your thoughts on that actually. Also - what is the difference between a, as you put it, 'Israeli (Muslim) Arab, and a Palestinian?
Btw - it's me, Uzz, so I remember your mother had a (serious?) operation. Has she made a full recovery?
Also - what are your thoughts on the below?
That hasn't answered the question. Whomever has put them in this situation - is Gaza a prison camp?
He won't answer.
Nice to hear from you!! - My mums great. No signs of it's return.
An Israeli Arab is an Arab that never left (or 'cleansed' as you'd have it) during the 1948 war and become fully absorbed as an Israeli citizen. 20% make up Israel's population.
Now to this....
1. The Nakba is more than just a “Palestinian narrative”.
Seven hundred thousand Palestinians were expelled from their lands in 1948. These expulsions were motivated by the Zionist desire to establish a Jewish-majority state on as much of British Mandate Palestine as possible. This is an objective fact of history, not a subjective perspective that we need to be sensitive about in dialogue groups. In the decades following the 1948 war, Palestinian villages were destroyed and refugees attempting to return were shot at the armistice lines. A series of laws were passed in the 1950’s to strip the refugees of their land and make everything legal. While Zionism had been a multifaceted movement with both statist and non-statist adherents right up until the early 1940’s, the Nakba constituted the State of Israel as a settler-colonial project. A project in which ethnic cleansing was seen as a legitimate means of establishing and maintaining a demographic Jewish majority.
The Palestinians left their homes in 1947–49 for a variety of reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leaders’ calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle. Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel.
The responsibility for the refugee problem rests with the Arabs for initiating then losing a genocidal invasion. End of.
“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”
— Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas
BTW no mention of the 820,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries
2. The Occupation is a symptom, not the disease.
Israel did not plan to conquer the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967 - hallelujah!!!, but this conquest very quickly became a new and terrible expression of Israeli settler-colonialism. The roughly one million Palestinian residents of these geographies fell under a brutal military occupation that remains in place to this day. In addition, some two hundred thousand Palestinians became refugees and some of their villages were destroyed. Liberal Zionists misidentify the occupation of 1967 as the root of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They fantasize about winding the clock back to June 4,1967. Moreover, they attribute magical moral powers to this date as if everything that happened before it is excusable, but everything that happened after it is reprehensible. This special cocktail of historical amnesia and moral incoherence is a defining characteristic of the Liberal Zionist ideology.
Convenient omission of the Six-day war. Ridiculous. Credibility instantly gone.
WTF is a liberal Zionist????
3. Ethnonationalism is a problematic foundation upon which to build a multiethnic state.
The world is not an ethnically homogenous place. No matter where you live, there will be people of different ethnicities who live alongside you. Therefore, the notion of building a nation state that structurally prefers one ethnicity over all others presents serious moral problems. This is as true of Sri Lanka and Estonia as it is of Israel/Palestine. When one ethnicity is given rights and privileges over and above all others, some group of people is in effect being discriminated against. In Israel/Palestine, this discrimination manifests in different intensities depending on the geographic location of the non-Jewish subjects in question. Palestinians who live inside the pre-1967 borders experience the lowest levels of state discrimination and those living in the Gaza Strip experience the highest, but no Palestinian is treated like a Jew under Israeli law. The two-state solution as articulated by most Liberal Zionists is designed to maintain a Jewish ethnonationalist state within the pre-1967 borders. Maintaining this state-enforced Jewish privilege in pre-1967 Israel, also means continuing to honor the law of return which allows Jews from anywhere in the world to immigrate while denying Palestinian refugees their right of return.
This author is insane, a terrible salesman. And Jew obsessed, mores than Hamas's charter.. Why should Palestinians have the same rights as Israeli's (Jew, Arabs, Jedi's) when they are not citizens?????. Does he suggest Israel annex???
Get this guy to speak to my mum's Israeli Muslim lung surgeon. He can probably recommend a good shrink.
4. The Palestinian right of return is a moral right.
Discussions of the Palestinian right of return often focus on matters of international law, but the more important question is whether it is indeed a moral right. If a person is compelled to leave their home during a time of a war, should that person have the right to return when the conditions of war are no longer in effect? I find it incredibly difficult to argue against the right of return as a basic restitution right. A right that the State of Israel has systematically denied a huge segment of the Palestinian people for more than half a century. Press a Liberal Zionist on this point and you will be putting your finger on the very internal contradiction that makes their position so difficult. Why is the notion of millions of Palestinians returning home so unpalatable? Are you scared, because you think that Palestinians are dangerous? Did the immigration of a million Russian Jews to the state in the 1990’s scare you as well? Do you fear losing your Jewish privilege in a state where you are no longer part of a violently-maintained demographic majority?
His ignorance could win prizes. Or the leadership of the Labour party.
5. Jewish rights and Palestinian rights are not zero sum.
For human rights to function at all, they cannot be conceived of as zero sum. There is no logical or practical reason why Jewish rights and Palestinian rights cannot both be respected in whatever mutually agreed-upon political settlement emerges in Israel/Palestine. Whether this is in one-state, two-states, or a confederation, respect for the rights of all people involved must be the foundation of any solution. For the Palestinians, this will mean abandoning the notion(still clung to by some) that Israeli Jews must pack up and go back to their countries of origin. For Israelis, this will mean relinquishing an insistence upon violently maintaining a demographic Jewish majority. It may even mean revisiting some of the long-dormant non-statist conceptions of Zionism that animated the movement in the early 20th century. But the Liberal Zionism of today simply won’t cut the mustard.
Just esoteric rubbish. Ignored every war. Arse.
Ismail Hanniya is kind of a handsome fella, like an Islamist Arab Clooney. Shame he heads a bunch of shitlords.
So now we again know where all that financial aid and imported concrete is going while the Gazan's starve.
Cue Le Chuck on ending the siege.
Daughter receives treatment in Israeli hospital, father readies fresh confrontation with Israel. What a guy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ers-daughter-treated-in-Israeli-hospital.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ers-daughter-treated-in-Israeli-hospital.html
Drivel. That's pure drivel! How can you expect that to be a satisfactory answer? It's pure drivel!
To point 1, a newbie (@Super Hans thanks for this) kindly posted this:
Here's the transcript by Shlomo ben Ami talking about it:
So your own govt personnel admit there was an ethnic cleansing.
Onto point 2: Let's take a look at illegal settles that break UN resolution after UN resolution -
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.700794
Almost All West Bank Land Deals for Illegal Settlements Forged, Investigation Finds
From straw men to cash-stuffed suitcases, new investigation reveals that 14 out 15 acquisitions by right wing firm of West Bank lands from Palestinians were forged.
This is one of many. It's disgusting. This coupled with the occupation is no way a human being should live, and they are denied their basic human rights because of it. And guess what...it's not Hamas' fault either! It's the Zionist divisive regime which have no intention of a 2 state solution, or any solution that gives rights to the Palestinians.
Here's some info for point 3:
The Palestinians are denied permits and denied IDs, and then you claim they can't be considered citizens of the state. Engage your brain and think about the reason for that. Engage your brain and think, why haven't they been made citizens of the state? I mean, you haven't really addressed any of the points in any coherent way have you? It's just nonsensical dismissal and an avoidance of the facts, because you have no real rational retort. It just proves my point that there can not be any solution until the Zionist govt is removed. Once that govt has removed, there is room for some compatibility.
(Had to snip some of the quotes due to character limit).
You think Isreal isn't preparing for conflict as well?
I suppose they are now that the local Hamas leader is making his plans known.