Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Mciahel Goodman said:
I was commenting more generally on the situation which sees Israeli extremist settlers attempt to steal land en masse from Palestinians (quite successfully). Would you, as a moderate Israeli, condemn this practice and implore your government to bring a halt to it?
Click to expand...

No, you were caught regurgitating Palestinian propaganda and were perhaps unaware that Arabs don't make any distinction between pre- and post-1967 Israeli borders. No wonder you read "similar reports" to what we see here.

There must have been quite a few permit request if those extra 200,000 extra Jerusalem Arabs (since apartheid started) are housed legally despite the stats "you also read".
 
holyland red said:
No, you were caught regurgitating Palestinian propaganda and were perhaps unaware that Arabs don't make any distinction between pre- and post-1967 Israeli borders. No wonder you read "similar reports" to what we see here.

There must have been quite a few permit request if those extra 200,000 extra Jerusalem Arabs (since apartheid started) are housed legally despite the stats "you also read".
Click to expand...

You can't disprove what they posted by showing population trends (which have apparently reversed in recent years anyway). Apparently a lot of the Palestinians living in Area C do build illegally as their permits are denied.

e.g.

Netanyahu has said little about the case, but under Western pressure the army seems to have made a tactical retreat: it recently concluded, based on Ottoman-era deeds, that Susiya was built on privately owned Palestinian land, according to a document leaked at the height of the controversy. The residents, in other words, cannot be expelled, though their homes can be demolished.
Read more at http://www.economist.com/news/middl...n-area-c-bulldozers-ready#brpQcGxraSu4LffM.99
Click to expand...
 
holyland red said:
No, you were caught regurgitating Palestinian propaganda and were perhaps unaware that Arabs don't make any distinction between pre- and post-1967 Israeli borders. No wonder you read "similar reports" to what we see here.
Click to expand...
You're completely incorrect in that assumption -- my comment was a general one on the ongoing annexation of Palestinian land. Are you for or against such action?
 
@holyland red, of the 600,000 or so Jews living beyond the Green Line, what percentage to you reckon are there for ideological reasons? And what percentage do you think are completely ignorant of the fact that they live somewhere most of the world regards as an illegal settlement?
 
holyland red said:
No, you were caught regurgitating Palestinian propaganda and were perhaps unaware that Arabs don't make any distinction between pre- and post-1967 Israeli borders. No wonder you read "similar reports" to what we see here.

There must have been quite a few permit request if those extra 200,000 extra Jerusalem Arabs (since apartheid started) are housed legally despite the stats "you also read".
Click to expand...

That's absolute bullshit and you know it. I'm actually staggered by how much nonsense you post. There is literally 0 facts behind what you say.

Palestinian homes are usually demolished under the pretext of not having a building permit. Figures from Israeli NGO Bimkom show that 95 percent of Palestinian applications for a building permit are rejected.

Rights groups say that Israel implements a series of discriminatory practices in housing, planning, residency rights and budget allocation in East Jerusalem, with the aim of reducing the number of Palestinians living in the city.
Click to expand...

Declared by Israel as its undivided capital, Jerusalem is in reality a tale of two very different cities.

Since 1967, Israel’s government has stifled the economic development of the Palestinian community in East Jerusalem, while simultaneously establishing and expanding illegal Jewish settlements.

“I think it’s very clear if you drive through Jerusalem when you have crossed into a Palestinian neighbourhood in terms of the huge gaps in infrastructure and planning,” Hagit Ofran from Peace Now said.

“It’s no secret that Israel’s government since 1967 has had a policy of annexing as much land as possible without incorporating the people in terms of their basic rights.”

Since 1967, Israel has built approximately 55,000 housing units in newly established illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem, Ofran said.

In the same time period - 47 years - no new Palestinian neighbourhoods have been established.

Rights groups say that Palestinians have been restricted to building in only 17 percent of East Jerusalem, meaning their only option is to expand existing properties.
Click to expand...

Rami Saleh, Director of the Jerusalem Centre for Legal Aid and Human Rights, said there is an annual shortage of 1,500 housing units in Palestinian neighbourhoods to accommodate natural growth.

The shortage of housing units to alleviate overcrowding in East Jerusalem is estimated in the tens of thousands.

Despite this, Israel’s municipality only approves between 100-150 permits a year, forcing Palestinians to build illegally.

“The municipality does not want to give permits for (Palestinian) houses. They are saying that very frankly. They are forbidding us from building houses to build settlements and expand.”

Saleh said that it can take up to six years to finish the process of applying for a building permit, and ultimately permission is rarely granted to Palestinians.

There is also a huge financial burden to obtain building permits, which can cost as much as 110,000 shekels ($29,900) in taxes and legal fees, the equivalent cost of building a new house.

Given the financial and bureaucratic obstacles, many Palestinians choose to build illegally, incurring the threat of having their house demolished by Israeli authorities.
Click to expand...

Israel effectively allows Palestinians to build in only 1 percent of Area C, the 60 percent of the West Bank over which it retains full control, according to a new report by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.
The report also said that so far this year Israel has demolished 180 Palestinian structures in Area C. As a result, 319 Palestinians, including 167 children, have lost their homes.

The report stated that due to the severe Israeli restrictions, Palestinians have no choice but to build without permits. In 70 percent of Area C (44 percent of the West Bank), Palestinian building is entirely forbidden, as this land is earmarked for the settlements, the army, nature reserves or a buffer zone around the separation fence. In the remaining 30 percent, construction is theoretically possible, but getting a permit is so difficult as to be practically impossible. Hence effectively, Palestinians can build freely on only 1 percent of Area C - most of which is already totally built over.
Click to expand...
 
2cents said:
@holyland red, of the 600,000 or so Jews living beyond the Green Line, what percentage to you reckon are there for ideological reasons? And what percentage do you think are completely ignorant of the fact that they live somewhere most of the world regards as an illegal settlement?
Click to expand...

All Israelis, not only WB residents, know that "the world" does not approve of Israel's control of the WB. I don't have a good estimate on how many WB residents are "ideological". Having said that, I doubt there is any point trying to figure that out as long as the Arabs themselves don't make any distinction between the WB and pre-1967 Israel. Most Jewish Israeli population is "ideological" in thinking that their people deserves a sovereign state in its homeland.
 
Shamwow said:
You can't disprove what they posted by showing population trends (which have apparently reversed in recent years anyway). Apparently a lot of the Palestinians living in Area C do build illegally as their permits are denied.

e.g.
Click to expand...


What are your thoughts on the recent trends in the Jewish population in Jerusalem?

I'm sure the Palestinians have a rough time getting construction permits in area C. I wish it was different, but that's the harsh reality of life in a war zone in what seems like an endless dispute.
 
holyland red said:
All Israelis, not only WB residents, know that "the world" does not approve of Israel's control of the WB. I don't have a good estimate on how many WB residents are "ideological". Having said that, I doubt there is any point trying to figure that out as long as the Arabs themselves don't make any distinction between the WB and pre-1967 Israel. Most Jewish Israeli population is "ideological" in thinking that their people deserves a sovereign state in its homeland.
Click to expand...

First question was prompted by this, yet another mooted 'peace plan':
MK moots peace plan that lets settlers stay in Palestinian state: http://www.timesofisrael.com/mk-moots-peace-plan-that-lets-settlers-stay-in-palestinian-state/

I agree it's unlikely to become an actual issue any time soon.

Second question was prompted by this:
Poll: Most Israelis don't know Jordan Valley is occupied: http://972mag.com/polljordanvalley/

The reason I asked is because I'm aware of +972's political leanings, and was just wondering if this phenomenon was more widespread, perhaps in places like Modi'in which straddles both sides of the Green Line.
 
2cents said:
First question was prompted by this, yet another mooted 'peace plan':
MK moots peace plan that lets settlers stay in Palestinian state: http://www.timesofisrael.com/mk-moots-peace-plan-that-lets-settlers-stay-in-palestinian-state/

I agree it's unlikely to become an actual issue any time soon.

Second question was prompted by this:
Poll: Most Israelis don't know Jordan Valley is occupied: http://972mag.com/polljordanvalley/

The reason I asked is because I'm aware of +972's political leanings, and was just wondering if this phenomenon was more widespread, perhaps in places like Modi'in which straddles both sides of the Green Line.
Click to expand...

There's nothing new about the suggestion some settlements will be left intact under Palestinian rule. Never gonna work though, as those living outside the main Jewish population centers in the WB are often the hardcore nutcases.

It's a strange poll you're showing there. I don't know one Israeli who doesn't know the world does not approve of Jewish settlement in the WB (including the Jordan Valley). The thing is that more and more Israelis don't really care what "the world" thinks about the issue. As long as the Arabs do not recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state a deal is not possible, regardless of what "the world" thinks. Withdrawing to the 1967 lines under these circumstances would be suicidal.
 
holyland red said:
There's nothing new about the suggestion some settlements will be left intact under Palestinian rule. Never gonna work though, as those living outside the main Jewish population centers in the WB are often the hardcore nutcases.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's what I figured - I visited Ariel and Modi'in before, the people there couldn't strike me as more different than the 'price-tag' crowd.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
I've read similar reports before. What exists at the moment is essentially apartheid by another name.
Click to expand...

You have no idea what apartheid is. That much is clear.

IAW1.gif
 
2cents said:
Yeah that's what I figured - I visited Ariel and Modi'in before, the people there couldn't strike me as more different than the 'price-tag' crowd.
Click to expand...

Modi'in is within Israel's 1967 boundaries. It's Modi'in Ilit which is in disputed territory. Ariel is indeed not your typical hardcore religious-nationalist settlement. It's places like Yitzhar, Tapuach, Bat-Ain et al., which house ISIS-like folk.
 
Fearless said:
IAW1.gif


You have no idea what apartheid is. That much is clear.
Click to expand...

How very patronising -- I'm well aware of what apartheid is, and please show me the academic, peer-reviewed journals supporting both that definition you have proclaimed as the exclusively correct one, and in fact the validity and veracity of its content.

Edit: I can tell you the worth of that website (and poster) from an academic viewpoint is non-existent. You'd be laughed out of any university in the world if you included that as a reference (unless you use it as an example of a website that should never be referenced).
 
Fearless said:
You have no idea what apartheid is. That much is clear.
Click to expand...
:lol:

The Jewish state (for so it identifies itself, after all) maintains a system of formal and informal housing segregation both in Israel and in the occupied territories. It's obvious, of course, that Jewish settlements in the West Bank aren't exactly bursting with Palestinians. In Israel itself, however, hundreds of communities have been established for Jewish residents on land expropriated from Palestinians, in which segregation is maintained, for example, by admissions committees empowered to use ethnic criteria long since banned in the United States, or by the inability of Palestinian citizens to access land held exclusively for the Jewish people by the state-sanctioned Jewish National Fund.
Click to expand...

Jewish residents of the occupied territories enjoy various rights and privileges denied to their Palestinian neighbors. While the former enjoy the protections of Israeli civil law, the latter are subject to the harsh provisions of military law. So, while their Jewish neighbors come and go freely, West Bank Palestinians are subject to arbitrary arrest and detention, and to the denial of freedom of movement; they are frequently barred from access to educational or healthcare facilities, Christian and Muslim sites for religious worship, and so on.
Click to expand...

Palestinian citizens of Israel must contend with about 50 state laws and bills that, according to the Palestinian-Israeli human rights organization Adalah, either privilege Jews or directly discriminate against the Palestinian minority. One of the key components of Israel's nationality law, the Law of Return, for example, applies to Jews only, and excludes Palestinians, including Palestinians born in what is now the state of Israel. While Jewish citizens can move back and forth without interdiction, Israeli law expressly bars Palestinian citizens from bringing spouses from the occupied territories to live with them in Israel.
Click to expand...

The educational systems for the two populations in Israel (not to mention the occupied territories) are kept largely separate and unequal. While overcrowded Palestinian schools in Israel crumble, Jewish students are given access to more resources and curricular options.
Click to expand...

It is not legally possible in Israel for a Jewish citizen to marry a non-Jewish citizen. And a web of laws, regulations and military orders governing what kind of people can live in which particular spaces makes mixed marriages within the occupied territories, or across the pre-1967 border between Israel and the occupied territories, all but impossible.
Click to expand...

The question is not whether the term "apartheid" applies here. It is why it should cause such an outcry when it is used.
Click to expand...
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
How very patronising -- I'm well aware of what apartheid is, and please show me the academic, peer-reviewed journals supporting both that definition you have proclaimed as exclusively correct one, and in fact the validity and veracity of its content.
Click to expand...

You deserve to be patronised. Instead of masturbating over peer reviewed journals why don't you look at a simple map.
My mother just got her tumour removed by a top Arab surgeon in Tel Aviv. I'll have Netanyahu look into his parking space if you like.
 
Fearless said:
You deserve to be patronised. Instead of masturbating over peer reviewed journals why don't you look at a simple map.
My mother just got her tumour removed by a top Arab surgeon in Tel Aviv. I'll have Netanyahu look into his parking space if you like.
Click to expand...
You're now moving on to non sequiturs.
 
Uzz said:
Local sources said that IOF tore down the foundations of the house under the pretext that it is located in (C) area and had no building permit.
Click to expand...


Classic settlin', occupationin', and h_red denyinin'.
Click to expand...

How do you tear down foundations? Foundations are underground. Surely, you would have to dig up foundations :confused:
 
Even former victims of South African Apartheid like Tutu & Mandela & holocaust survivors not only correctly describe it as Israeli apartheid but that it is a more brutal and inhumane version. Let that sink in
 
FCBarca said:
Even former victims of South African Apartheid like Tutu & Mandela & holocaust survivors not only correctly describe it as Israeli apartheid but that it is a more brutal and inhumane version. Let that sink in
Click to expand...

How about all that money in your banks??? Can I have it back.
 
On the topic of settlers, the Israeli government are currently 'strongly condemning' their acts of violence, yet the fact of the matter is the IDF still essentially act as their private security.

I wonder how brave these extremists would be if they had no protection?
 
Fearless said:
Nobody here is defending these nutters.

Difference is that Israel won't name a street after them.
Click to expand...

Are you telling me they receive no preferential protection? They've always allowed the settlers to act with impunity for the most part.
 
Fearless said:
You just used Israeli technology to demonstrate your point.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

The irony. The hypocrisy.

Boycott Uzzrael.
Click to expand...
The site was created in 2008 by Jim Garvin and Ryan Geary, who have since created spin-off sites including Let Me Snopes That For You and Let Me Wikipedia That For You.

"
I'm Jim Garvin, (aka Coderifous) and this is my blog where I write about stuff that interests me.

I own Three Thirties, a software development and consulting firm located in North Carolina's Research Triangle. I help my clients by building working software the right way."
Click to expand...

I don't know what you're on about, but you should 'settle' yourself down.
 
Fearless said:
You deserve to be patronised. Instead of masturbating over peer reviewed journals why don't you look at a simple map.
My mother just got her tumour removed by a top Arab surgeon in Tel Aviv. I'll have Netanyahu look into his parking space if you like.
Click to expand...

:lol:
 
Uzz said:
:lol:

Bless - you really are an idiot.

I wish your mum a speedy recovery. She needs to go back to keeping an eye on you.
Click to expand...

Never said Google was Israeli rather the majority of Google search products including Google Suggest, Google Trends, Google Insights for Search and others are created, spearheaded and developed in Israel.

Thanks about my mum. She's doing fine now and I have nothing but praise for the medical team (same hospital where the horrifically attacked Palestinian family are hopefully recovering as best as they can).

Secondly, I give you my word that the staff (at ALL levels) were made up of many Israeli Muslims, especially the wonderful (and very religious) nurse who was amazing.
 
FCBarca said:
Even former victims of South African Apartheid like Tutu & Mandela & holocaust survivors not only correctly describe it as Israeli apartheid but that it is a more brutal and inhumane version. Let that sink in
Click to expand...

Celebrating the arch-terrorist's birthday yesterday... A current Arab Israeli MK, former political advisor of Yasser Arafat... Apartheid

650.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.