Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Mihajlovic said:
RK what was the reason for Palestinians not wanting an independent state during the Jordanian occupation, or for Jordan not wanting to start the same process? Surely some sort of Palestinian political autonomy could have been achieved in that long time which then could have potentially kicked off a transition into full independence or at least some sort of federation?!
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Back then we didn't have a refugee problem, a colonisation problem, and Palestinians were treated as normal Jordanian civilians. There was very little motivation to push for an independent state (well there was, but the movement was negligible compared to today.)

Nowadays its different, millions of Palestinians have been displaced by foreign settlers who were lucky enough to have Jewish blood, many are having their territories eaten into in the West bank, and Gaza is currently a large prison camp. A lot of these problems would be alleviated with the establishment of a Palestinian state. At least thats how I, and many others would see it.
 
Kaos said:
Back then we didn't have a refugee problem, a colonisation problem, and Palestinians were treated as normal Jordanian civilians. There was very little motivation to push for an independent state (well there was, but the movement was negligible compared to today.)

Nowadays its different, millions of Palestinians have been displaced by foreign settlers who were lucky enough to have Jewish blood, many are having their territories eaten into in the West bank, and Gaza is currently a large prison camp. A lot of these problems would be alleviated with the establishment of a Palestinian state. At least thats how I, and many others would see it.
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There are pleny of 1948 refugee camps in the WB. "We" didn't have a problem because Israel wasn't controlling the territory.
 
Excal said:
Oh no. Bibi would never do that... :rolleyes:
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Expected to win this coming election by a fair margin, the last thing he needs is an armed conflict which could go wrong. Usually I'm grateful for US aid and all, but how fecking thick can you get? Actually, as a Yank you should at least express some respect at Israel restaraint. The first attack on US soil in 60 years was answered by the brutal murder of 100,000s of civilians and you have the nerve to call Israel response a political trick? Do you also reckon Clinton murdered Serbian civilians in order to wash that cumstain from Monika's dress?
 
holyland red said:
Expected to win this coming election by a fair margin, the last thing he needs is an armed conflict which could go wrong. Usually I'm grateful for US aid and all, but how fecking thick can you get? Actually, as a Yank you should at least express some respect at Israel restaraint. The first attack on US soil in 60 years was answered by the brutal murder of 100,000s of civilians and you have the nerve to call Israel response a political trick? Do you also reckon Clinton murdered Serbian civilians in order to wash that cumstain from Monika's dress?
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bit of a coincidence that the last two major escalations in violence were new years 2009 and now November 2012- both a couple of months before Israeli elections.
 
holyland red said:
Expected to win this coming election by a fair margin, the last thing he needs is an armed conflict which could go wrong. Usually I'm grateful for US aid and all, but how fecking thick can you get? Actually, as a Yank you should at least express some respect at Israel restaraint. The first attack on US soil in 60 years was answered by the brutal murder of 100,000s of civilians and you have the nerve to call Israel response a political trick? Do you also reckon Clinton murdered Serbian civilians in order to wash that cumstain from Monika's dress?
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Yeah, I'll be sure to thank you for your restraint while you're frothing yourself into an anti-American tirade for daring to question Netanyahu's motives.

Be nice if more of you were honest about your contempt, though. We could wash our hands of the whole thing.
 
I'm not going to speculate on what Netanyaho did or did not do with regards to this conflict just yet. But all of us know what Bibi was up to interfearing in our General elections by saying Obama was not serious about Isreali security re:Iran don't we.

Natenyaho is dispicable. Even the normally idiotic media had the guts to say Romney and bibi were old college mates and business partners.
 
Excal said:
Yeah, I'll be sure to thank you for your restraint while you're frothing yourself into an anti-American tirade for daring to question Netanyahu's motives.

Be nice if more of you were honest about your contempt, though. We could wash our hands of the whole thing.
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And one more

It doesn't feel good being accused of nistigating wars for the wrong reasons, does it? But then, Israelis are expected to tolerate this kind of shit on a reguar basis. Have you ever lived under rocket threat, Excal?
 
Red Dreams said:
I'm not going to speculate on what Netanyaho did or did not do with regards to this conflict just yet. But all of us know what Bibi was up to interfearing in our General elections by saying Obama was not serious about Isreali security re:Iran don't we.

Natenyaho is dispicable. Even the normally idiotic media had the guts to say Romney and bibi were old college mates and business partners.
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Netanyahu had his preference, but let's not be naive here. The US often has its hands busy in internal Israeli political affairs (see the 1992 elections, leading to the bloodbath that the Oslo agreement brought with it as an example).
 
Drainy said:
bit of a coincidence that the last two major escalations in violence were new years 2009 and now November 2012- both a couple of months before Israeli elections.
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But then it wasn't Bibi in power, was it? It was Olmert who offered Abbas full withdrawal, and allowing thousands of 1948 refugees to move back to Israeli territory.

Is it possible that Hamas gambled on Israeli restraint prior to general election in the Jewish state?
 
The difference is, I'm not such a willfully-blind jingoist that I can pretend my country never has started a war for the wrong reason. The war in Iraq was a travesty. Afghanistan, Vietnam, barely less so.

America, in both it's colonial and republican eras has started wars of conquest, enrichment, and folly.

"My country, right or wrong," as an actual philosophy is appalling. It's defenders no less so.
 
Excal said:
The difference is, I'm not such a willfully-blind jingoist that I can pretend my country never has started a war for the wrong reason. The war in Iraq was a travesty. Afghanistan, Vietnam, barely less so.

America, in both it's colonial and republican eras has started wars of conquest, enrichment, and folly.

"My country, right or wrong," as an actual philosophy is appalling. It's defenders no less so.
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What would your country do if 15-20% of its population were under constant rocket fire?
 
Excal said:
The difference is, I'm not such a willfully-blind jingoist that I can pretend my country never has started a war for the wrong reason. The war in Iraq was a travesty. Afghanistan, Vietnam, barely less so.

America, in both it's colonial and republican eras has started wars of conquest, enrichment, and folly.

"My country, right or wrong," as an actual philosophy is appalling. It's defenders no less so.
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How does having your towns and cities bombarded by rockets on daily basis constitute for a wrong reason to try eliminate those who're firing them? Isn't this the most simple basics of self-defence? It's not as if the IDF flew out invaded and occupied Norway or whatever other foreign country thousands of miles away. Israel's enemy is literally at their door step.
 
Mihajlovic said:
How does having your towns and cities bombarded by rockets on daily basis constitute for a wrong reason to try eliminate those who're firing them? Isn't this the most simple basics of self-defence? It's not as if the IDF flew out invaded and occupied Norway or whatever other foreign country thousands of miles away. Israel's enemy is literally at their door step.
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If Israel are the victims they become less and less worthy of sympathy with every ceasefire they break, every international law they mockingly break- using white phosphorous is pathetic, every civilian they kill or maim and just shrug off as collateral damage.

The only way to broker peace is to have some empathy and human decency. Treating the Palestinians like they are animals will only breed more resentment and lead to more violence. The more military superiority the Israelis have the more dirty the Palestinians will fight- that is how humans are- subjugated people rise up against their oppressors by whatever means they have available.
 
holyland red said:
Netanyahu had his preference, but let's not be naive here. The US often has its hands busy in internal Israeli political affairs (see the 1992 elections, leading to the bloodbath that the Oslo agreement brought with it as an example).
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good move there. I'm talking about Netanyaho. He was trying to sway this election to favour of an idiot in foreign affairs who would happily have got the US invading Iran within a year. That may suit Israel...but not the US. I normally give the benefit of doubt to Israel. But if Netanyaho was serious about peace, he could have spent the months trying to drag the US into a war with Iran trying to find a solution with the Palestinians.
 
Red Dreams said:
good move there. I'm talking about Netanyaho. He was trying to sway this election to favour of an idiot in foreign affairs who would happily have got the US invading Iran within a year. That may suit Israel...but not the US. I normally give the benefit of doubt to Israel. But if Netanyaho was serious about peace, he could have spent the months trying to drag the US into a war with Iran trying to find a solution with the Palestinians.
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The Obama Administration getting Barak onside there was really a massive victory for them. It prevented a situation I believe would end far far worse than the Iraq war did.
 
Drainy said:
If Israel are the victims they become less and less worthy of sympathy with every ceasefire they break, every international law they mockingly break- using white phosphorous is pathetic, every civilian they kill or maim and just shrug off as collateral damage.

The only way to broker peace is to have some empathy and human decency. Treating the Palestinians like they are animals will only breed more resentment and lead to more violence. The more military superiority the Israelis have the more dirty the Palestinians will fight- that is how humans are- subjugated people rise up against their oppressors by whatever means they have available.
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Does that not also work the other way around?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence
 
MichaelS said:
Does that not also work the other way around?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence
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It does, but in the current situation there can only be one side that is anywhere close to being subjugated enough to have any excuse for violence.

Violence is a last resort, and there's a fine line between terrorists and freedom fighters. If any of us were in the Palestinian's position I reckon we would behave the same.

Sure a lot of people would act like the Israelis if we were there too, but it takes courage to actually want peace and accept the occasions where assholes on the other side feck it up. Just look at the Northern Ireland peace process.
 
Drainy said:
It does, but in the current situation there can only be one side that is anywhere close to being subjugated enough to have any excuse for violence.

Violence is a last resort, and there's a fine line between terrorists and freedom fighters. If any of us were in the Palestinian's position I reckon we would behave the same.

Sure a lot of people would act like the Israelis if we were there too, but it takes courage to actually want peace and accept the occasions where assholes on the other side feck it up. Just look at the Northern Ireland peace process.
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I don't see Tibetans blowing up chinese civilians or hijacking busses with chinese civilians and driving them off cliffs, and their situation is far more tragic and unjust.
 
MichaelS said:
I don't see Tibetans blowing up chinese civilians or hijacking busses with chinese civilians and driving them off cliffs, and their situation is far more tragic and unjust.
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and look how successful they are.

for every 'Gandhi' there's probably 15 'Mandelas'
 
MichaelS said:
About as succesful as the palestine people, but with their dignity intact.
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The Palestinians have their dignity stolen every day when their entire road into work gets closed for hours so that one Israeli car can travel safely. When those who live in East Jerusalem can be kicked out of their homes where their families have lived for generations without any notice just because Israel say so and enforce it with superior arms. When they are not allowed to leave their homes after curfew because another nation says so. When Israel won't allow food into the Gaza strip before it rots. etc etc.
 
Drainy said:
The Palestinians have their dignity stolen every day when their entire road into work gets closed for hours so that one Israeli car can travel safely. When those who live in East Jerusalem can be kicked out of their homes where their families have lived for generations without any notice just because Israel say so and enforce it with superior arms. When they are not allowed to leave their homes after curfew because another nation says so. When Israel won't allow food into the Gaza strip before it rots. etc etc.
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I'm not belittling the sufferings of the palestine people, I'm just not justifying terror attacks on israli civilians because of that.
 
MichaelS said:
I'm not belittling the sufferings of the palestine people, I'm just not justifying terror attacks on israli civilians because of that.
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In an ideal world there shouldn't be targeting of civilians. It's an horrific thing to do.

Its simply an acknowledgement that they don't have the necessary tools to further their political agenda without it at this point.

If the Israelis allowed them statehood through the same process that gave them it they would be completely out of order to go down the route of violence. Unfortunately, the US and Israel blocked any hope of legitimising the Palestinian state and we're back to the same old paradigm.
 
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