Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Yeah I knew as soon as I wrote it that it's not really satisfactory. But I would say that there are varying degrees of what are regarded as acceptable claims to land and certainly today, very few would accept that the interests of foreigners (in this case British imperialists and Zionists) should take priority over the wishes of the current inhabitants of the land.

Palestinian Jews were also the then (and of course previous) current inhabitants of the land and partition 2.0 reflected that for the most part.

Question - How do you measure the (universal accepted?) value of a land claim???
(This reminds me a bit of first past the post vrs PR)

A) The demographic majority overall
B) The demographic majority per city
C) The longest racial presence in both the above, regardless of numbers.
 
Whilst I agree that lots of states based on similar identity politics exist, I'd argue that in the other examples you mention these had a degree of historical precedent which Zionism lacks. Serbian and Albanian nationalism especially come in the context of majority ethnic populations historically rooted in certain areas who had little or no experience of self-determination in their recent history, either due to being part of foreign empires (Austro-Hungary/Ottoman) or the Soviet Bloc. In that context the formation of a state was tantamount to emancipation. Zionism wasn't a movement for Jewish self-determination in their own lands, it was the belief that the Jewish people had a divine right to rule a land which, outside of scripture, the vast majority of Jews had no tangible connection to, and that their status as God's chosen invalidated any Earthly claims lesser peoples might have to that same land. It was effectively the belief that the Jewish people had the right to take what wasn't theirs based solely on the fact that they were Jewish and the Arabs weren't.

It's not your right to decide whats tangible or not to Jews or anybody else.
In addition, you've twisted the chosen people reference as some innate superiority the Jews have and worse, throw around, like it's part of a collective nature.

I hope I'm wrong. But we'll see.
 
It's not your right to decide whats tangible or not to Jews or anybody else.
In addition, you've twisted the chosen people reference as some innate superiority the Jews have and worse, throw around, like it's part of a collective nature.

I hope I'm wrong. But we'll see.

Not to be terribly controversial, but I'd argue that me living in a house gives me more of a tangible link to that house that someone who believes God promised it to them, or someone whose distant ancestors used to live in the house.

Also please don't try and tag me as an anti-semite, if that's what you're trying to do in the bolded. Criticising Zionism and anti-semitism are not at all the same thing and attempting to equate them to undermine someone's argument is a shitty thing to do. As I've stated before, my opposition is to Zionism and the things the Israeli government has done in its name, not to Israelis or Jewish people as a whole. I'm not in the business of assigning collective blame to any ethnic or religious group for the actions of individuals within that group, even when those individuals happen to be in government.]

edit - fancy addressing the post that was addressed to you above, rather than the one I addressed to 2cents?
 
Whilst I agree that lots of states based on similar identity politics exist, I'd argue that in the other examples you mention these had a degree of historical precedent which Zionism lacks. Serbian and Albanian nationalism especially come in the context of majority ethnic populations historically rooted in certain areas who had little or no experience of self-determination in their recent history, either due to being part of foreign empires (Austro-Hungary/Ottoman) or the Soviet Bloc. In that context the formation of a state was tantamount to emancipation. Zionism wasn't a movement for Jewish self-determination in their own lands, it was the belief that the Jewish people had a divine right to rule a land which, outside of scripture, the vast majority of Jews had no tangible connection to, and that their status as God's chosen invalidated any Earthly claims lesser peoples might have to that same land. It was effectively the belief that the Jewish people had the right to take what wasn't theirs based solely on the fact that they were Jewish and the Arabs weren't.

It's interesting you are ready to offer historical context as an explanation for the nature of, for example, Serbian nationalism, while at the same time appearing indifferent to the impact of such a context on the development of Zionism, instead preferring a religious explanation. The 'divine right'/'chosen people' element to Zionism is an aspect to it that would have interested early secular Zionists little beyond proving their historical connection to the land, and although more zealously-minded Zionists might indeed hold such views, they're not an integral aspect of how the movement was conceived. Consider the words of the national anthem:

As long as the Jewish spirit is yearning deep in the heart,
With eyes turned toward the East, looking toward Zion,
Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost:
To be a free people in our land,
The land of Zion and Jerusalem.


'Self-determination' and 'emancipation' is exactly how Zionists viewed their project - there's no mention of divine rights, no mention of the Palestinian Arabs, just an emotional connection based on a long history. It's actually far less religiously inspired and militant than the Serbian national anthem for example.

It's enough to recognize that Palestine became the focus for the Zionist project due to a) the history of the Jewish people and the inevitable result of their adoption of 19th century European nationalism with its use of historical symbols and myths to mobilize the movement, and b) because they could get away with it, i.e. they lived in a world in which colonization by Europeans of 'less-developed' peoples' lands was not considered a bad thing.

My point was that in terms of how it conceives its relation to minority groups, Zionism need be no less liberal than the other nationalist models around which it evolved, although obviously the ebb and flow of history has produced less liberal strands of Zionist thought as it tends to do in all such movements. I've already acknowledged in the context part of my original post above that one difference between Zionism and other national movements around it was that the Jews had no obvious territory in Europe to claim as their own. But the movement still sprang from the same origins, and the model the early Zionists had in mind was not related to the bible, but was based on the European conception of the classic nation-state, in which one group dominates by fact of their clear majority within recognized frontiers. Consider the words of Jabotinsky (you'll find an interesting pdf here - http://en.idi.org.il/media/2384931/Jabotinsky-IDI-2013.pdf):

"If we were to have a Jewish majority in Eretz Israel, then first of all, we would create here a situation of total, absolute, and complete equal rights, with no exceptions: whether Jew, Arab, Armenian, or German, there is no difference before the law; all paths are open before him. . . . Complete equal rights would be granted not only to citizens as individuals but also to languages and nations."

"All of us, all Jews and Zionists of all schools of thought, want the best for the Arabs of Eretz Israel. We do not want to eject even one Arab from either the left or the right bank of the Jordan River. We want them to prosper both economically and culturally. We envision the regime of Jewish Palestine [Eretz Israel ha-Ivri] as follows: most of the population will be Jewish, but equal rights for all Arab citizens will not only be guaranteed, they will also be fulfilled."

"[Even] after the formation of a Jewish majority, a considerable Arab population will always remain in Palestine. If things fare badly for this group of inhabitants then things will fare badly for the entire country. The political, economic and cultural welfare of the Arabs will thus always remain one of the main conditions for the well-being of the Land of Israel."


None of this is to argue that the morality of the Zionist project outweighed the wishes of the Palestinian Arabs (as Jabotinsky believed). I've already argued otherwise above. Rather, I'm saying that there is nothing unique in Zionism's 'original sin' which makes Israel stand out amongst a host of other examples of states founded on similar ideologies and often in the midst of worse crimes.

Question - How do you measure the (universal accepted?) value of a land claim???
(This reminds me a bit of first past the post vrs PR)

A) The demographic majority overall
B) The demographic majority per city
C) The longest racial presence in both the above, regardless of numbers.

The Zionists would have accepted (A), which is why they were determined to produce a Jewish majority in Palestine through migration. They never argued for (B), which would have left them with maybe Jerusalem and one or two other urban centers in Palestine. As for (C), 'racial presence' in the biological sense is something unverifiable over such a long period. In fact I object to the labeling of either Jews or Arabs as a 'race'. The idea that all Jews are biologically connected to the Jews of Palestine is as ridiculous as the idea that Palestinian Arabs are all biologically connected to the Arab invaders of the 7th century.
 
Last edited:
@2cents - In hindsight I can see I largely missed the point of what you were arguing. I take your point in the sense that Zionism saw itself as emancipatory in nature and I completely agree that in theory a Jewish state isn't any more problematic than, for example, a Albanian state.

It's the difference in the action necessary to achieve those goals and the justification of those actions that leads me to be critical of Zionism.
 
Not to be terribly controversial, but I'd argue that me living in a house gives me more of a tangible link to that house that someone who believes God promised it to them, or someone whose distant ancestors used to live in the house.

Also please don't try and tag me as an anti-semite, if that's what you're trying to do in the bolded. Criticising Zionism and anti-semitism are not at all the same thing and attempting to equate them to undermine someone's argument is a shitty thing to do. As I've stated before, my opposition is to Zionism and the things the Israeli government has done in its name, not to Israelis or Jewish people as a whole. I'm not in the business of assigning collective blame to any ethnic or religious group for the actions of individuals within that group, even when those individuals happen to be in government.]

But they are. Denying the national aspirations of the Jews who drew upon their aspiration because they are Jews gives this whole debate a somewhat unique slant. Thats why lines becomes blurred so quickly, and certain well-trained antennae are alerted.

FYI, I didn't mean to accuse you of anti-semitism, but by the same token, you MUST appreciate the big difference here.
 
But they are. Denying the national aspirations of the Jews who drew upon their aspiration because they are Jews gives this whole debate a somewhat unique slant. Thats why lines becomes blurred so quickly, and certain well-trained antennae are alerted.

FYI, I didn't mean to accuse you of anti-semitism, but by the same token, you MUST appreciate the big difference here.

You're missing the point a little.

The Jewish people wanting statehood after WWII isn't a problem as far as I'm concerned, it's entirely understandable, if logistically difficult. The problem is that they wanted to plonk that state right slap bang in the middle of someone elses' home.

A lot of people are always going to have a problem with anideology that involves kicking people off their land for not being of the 'right' ethnoreligious group and handing it over to immigrants who are.
 
I don't mind anyone building their own house as long as they don't lock the former occupants of the land in the garden shed.
 
You're missing the point a little.

The Jewish people wanting statehood after WWII isn't a problem as far as I'm concerned, it's entirely understandable, if logistically difficult. The problem is that they wanted to plonk that state right slap bang in the middle of someone elses' home.

A lot of people are always going to have a problem with anideology that involves kicking people off their land for not being of the 'right' ethnoreligious group and handing it over to immigrants who are.

You're still maintaining the illusion that Israel, unprovoked, stole official Arab land and went on an ethnic cleansing rampage.
I need proof, not assumptions.
 
You're still maintaining the illusion that Israel, unprovoked, stole official Arab land and went on an ethnic cleansing rampage.
I need proof, not comfy slogans.

"A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" was dated 30 June 1948 and became widely known around 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

  1. Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
  2. The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).
  3. Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
  4. Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
  5. Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
  6. Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
  7. Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.
  8. The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village.
  9. Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].
  10. Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
  11. Various local factors and general fear of the future."
I'm not 'maintaining an illusion' - the ethnic cleansing of Palestine communities is a matter of public record. There's a contemporary IDF report stating that the main reason for the Palestinians leaving is because either they were being attacked by the IDF or because they feared being attacked by the IDF or because of other Jewish paramilitary attack. All of these factors are stated as being more important than anything Arab leaders did or said. 6 of the top 7 factors are due to Israeli actions and only one due to Arab actions.

What's important here is that what the Israeli government knows and says behind closed doors is completely different to what it makes public and says to the media.

To quote Haaretz 'In the past two decades....the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as “top secret.”
 
I'm not 'maintaining an illusion' - the ethnic cleansing of Palestine communities is a matter of public record. There's a contemporary IDF report stating that the main reason for the Palestinians leaving is because either they were being attacked by the IDF or because they feared being attacked by the IDF or because of other Jewish paramilitary attack. All of these factors are stated as being more important than anything Arab leaders did or said. 6 of the top 7 factors are due to Israeli actions and only one due to Arab actions.

What's important here is that what the Israeli government knows and says behind closed doors is completely different to what it makes public and says to the media.

To quote Haaretz 'In the past two decades....the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as “top secret.”

Can you please provide an official link to the actual report, including unquestionable proof of IDF as the original source. Thanks.
 
Can you please provide an official link to the actual report, including unquestionable proof of IDF as the original source. Thanks.

Do you seriously think there's going to be an 'official' link to a report which completely contradicts the Israeli government's propaganda? It may be somewhere on the internet but I'm not going to waste my day trying to find it. I had a look on the Hashomer Hatza'ir website but the online catalogue bit is in Hebrew. I assume my inability to show you the document means you're going to dismiss it as anti-Israeli propaganda?

Instead I'll give you the name of the document and the accompanying notes provided by Benny Morris in his article 'The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: The Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948' if that'll do you. Others in this thread (2cents as historian and holyland red as a Zionist) have and can attest to Morris' credentials.

The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948 (t'nu'at ha'hagira shel arvi'yei eretz yisrael ba't'kufa 1/12/1947-1/6/1948). Dated 30 June 1948.

The document is to be found in the newly organized and released private papers of Aharon Cohen, the long-standing director of the Mapam (United Workers Party) Arab Department and a leading Middle East affairs expert, in the Hashomer Hatza'ir Archive (Givat Haviva, Israel), 10.95.13. A notation in Cohen's hand on the cover page of the document says: 'Sent - 8/7/48 - Received 11/7/48'. Apparently it was sent to him by a contact in IDF Intelligence Branch or in the General Staff.

 
Do you seriously think there's going to be an 'official' link to a report which completely contradicts the Israeli government's propaganda? It may be somewhere on the internet but I'm not going to waste my day trying to find it. I had a look on the Hashomer Hatza'ir website but the online catalogue bit is in Hebrew. I assume my inability to show you the document means you're going to dismiss it as anti-Israeli propaganda?

Instead I'll give you the name of the document and the accompanying notes provided by Benny Morris in his article 'The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: The Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948' if that'll do you. Others in this thread (2cents as historian and holyland red as a Zionist) have and can attest to Morris' credentials.


I didn't ask you about Benny Morris. Or his notes.

We seem to be moving into Roswell territory don't we.
 
I didn't ask you about Benny Morris.

Well he's the guy who had access to it and published the first article about it so you're going to have to make do. If you'd rather believe that Benny Morris is lying about this document as part of some conspiracy against Israel than admit that the evidence contradicts you position that's fair enough. To be honest I suspect that if I came to your house and plonked the original document down on your kitchen counter you'd still not admit it exists.

edit - just seen the line you added on. in a word, delusional.
 
Last edited:
Well he's the guy who had access to it and published the first article about it so you're going to have to make do. If you'd rather believe that Benny Morris is lying about this document as part of some conspiracy against Israel than admit that the evidence contradicts you position that's fair enough. To be honest I suspect that if I came to your house and plonked the original document down on your kitchen counter you'd still not admit it exists.

edit - just seen the line you added on. in a word, delusional.

1.13 onward

 
1.13 onward

Your continual attempts to divert the debate are starting to look a little desperate. We're not talking about what words Morris wants to use, we're talking about the evidence and whether you'll admit it's real.

For the record, based on the evidence Morris says that at least 48% of cases of abandoned of Palestinian towns/villages was due to Israeli military assault, 13% due Israelis attacking a nearby town, 12% due to being forcebly deported by the IDF and 3% because of Israeli whispering campaigns. The evidence credits IDF activity for the expulsion upwards of half a million Arabs - sounds quite a bit like ethnic cleansing to me.
 
Your continual attempts to divert the debate are starting to look a little desperate. We're not talking about what words Morris wants to use, we're talking about the evidence and whether you'll admit it's real.

For the record, based on the evidence Morris says that at least 48% of cases of abandoned of Palestinian towns/villages was due to Israeli military assault, 13% due Israelis attacking a nearby town, 12% due to being forcebly deported by the IDF and 3% because of Israeli whispering campaigns. The evidence credits IDF activity for the expulsion upwards of half a million Arabs - sounds quite a bit like ethnic cleansing to me.

You can't provide a single link to the very document (the one that's a 'matter of public record') that supports your entire argument.

Surely something that self-incriminating would be all over the web.
 
You can't provide a single link to the very document (the one that's a 'matter of public record') that supports your entire argument.

Surely something that self-incriminating would be all over the web.

That's very naive. The only known copies belong to The Israeli government and the archive of the Kibbutz Movement; since Morris saw it and wrote about it the Israeli government has denied anyone else from accessing it - it's public record because he divulged its contents and for no other reason. To quote Joel Beinin:

"When I asked to see this document I was told that the Israeli security services forbade the archive to release this document and that it had been a mistake to allow Morris to see it, as the original was still classified"

It's not 'my argument', it's the general consensus amongst most Israeli historians, with the exception of Morris (who sometimes uses the term ethnic cleansing and sometimes doesn't) and the lunatics like Karsh. Like I said before, if you'd rather believe that Benny Morris fabricated a document to undermine the Israeli government than admit that you're wrong, that's your prerogative. It's delusional, but it's your prerogative.
 
Your continual attempts to divert the debate are starting to look a little desperate. We're not talking about what words Morris wants to use, we're talking about the evidence and whether you'll admit it's real.

For the record, based on the evidence Morris says that at least 48% of cases of abandoned of Palestinian towns/villages was due to Israeli military assault, 13% due Israelis attacking a nearby town, 12% due to being forcebly deported by the IDF and 3% because of Israeli whispering campaigns. The evidence credits IDF activity for the expulsion upwards of half a million Arabs - sounds quite a bit like ethnic cleansing to me.

You provide no evidence, and try to get away with it saying that you won't spend your precious time searching for it.

A quick search brings up the following from wiki, with plenty of available links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes...st_wave.2C_December_1947_.E2.80.93_March_1948

You can find there plenty of varying opinions and interpretations. You're welcome to adopt the one you like, be it Pappe's, Segev's, Peled's or Khalidi's, but it would only be fair if you acknowledged the fact that other, at least as respectable, historians see things differently.
 
You provide no evidence, and try to get away with it saying that you won't spend your precious time searching for it.

A quick search brings up the following from wiki, with plenty of available links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes...st_wave.2C_December_1947_.E2.80.93_March_1948

You can find there plenty of varying opinions and interpretations. You're welcome to adopt the one you like, be it Pappe's, Segev's, Peled's or Khalidi's, but it would only be fair if you acknowledged the fact that other, at least as respectable, historians see things differently.

To be fair it's not that I've not produced evidence, it's just that he's so set in his opinions that he'd rather deny any evidence that contradicts his point then change his mind. This last page or so has all come about because I mentioned that Benny Morris cites a classified document which Fearless refuses to admit exists because I can't find it on the internet (I have looked for it, but it's not there, which is unsurprising because it's classified. It's cited repeatedly in that link that you posted though).

At this present moment we're not really debating conclusions, we've reached this impasse because he's been presented with evidence and rather than taking it into account and revising his position he's formulated a conspiracy theory about Benny Morris inventing said evidence. I totally get what you're saying, and obviously people coming to different conclusions based on the same evidence is part and parcel of the debate, but flat-out refusing to accept the validity of any evidence he doesn't like isn't a debate.
 
To be fair it's not that I've not produced evidence, it's just that he's so set in his opinions that he'd rather deny any evidence that contradicts his point then change his mind. This last page or so has all come about because I mentioned that Benny Morris cites a classified document which Fearless refuses to admit exists because I can't find it on the internet (I have looked for it, but it's not there, which is unsurprising because it's classified. It's cited repeatedly in that link that you posted though).

At this present moment we're not really debating conclusions, we've reached this impasse because he's been presented with evidence and rather than taking it into account and revising his position he's formulated a conspiracy theory about Benny Morris inventing said evidence. I totally get what you're saying, and obviously people coming to different conclusions based on the same evidence is part and parcel of the debate, but flat-out refusing to accept the validity of any evidence he doesn't like isn't a debate.

I can understand why a piece of "evidence" which only one individual is alleged to have seen would not be as convincing as ample evidence to the contrary. No matter who that individual might be. You favouring what you refer to as evidence over tons of others doesn't make you any more impartial than the last settler on a WB hill.

I think it would be fair to say that well-founded figures for the causes of the refugee issue are not available, and any attempt by historians to quantify them would provide little more than academic handwaving. The best example would be the case of Deir Yassin. There are conflicting views on the events leading to the battle/massacre, how it started, its nature and aftermath. What is not clear is whether Arabs fleeing other villages afterwards would have done though if reports on Arab media at the time did not exaggerate the extent of the events. Without getting into the different versions of the events and drawing here all the caf loons, how would you classify the causes for the ensuing Arab fleeing from elsewhere? Driven out by the Jewish militias? Running away from those, fearing a similar fate? Escaping possible similar horrors, only that those never happened and were fabricated by the Arabs to increase sympathy to their cause? Perhaps some were not as "indigenous" as you claim them to be and just thought they didn't need the trouble that mess with the Jews involves? I mean, Jews didn't leave this place in droves following the massacres of Jews that you have been side-stepping so elegantly.
 
To be fair it's not that I've not produced evidence, it's just that he's so set in his opinions that he'd rather deny any evidence that contradicts his point then change his mind. This last page or so has all come about because I mentioned that Benny Morris cites a classified document which Fearless refuses to admit exists because I can't find it on the internet (I have looked for it, but it's not there, which is unsurprising because it's classified. It's cited repeatedly in that link that you posted though).

What I am saying is that you simply can't blame zionists for this whole mess on the basis of an alleged document that can't be located anywhere.

All I'm asking for is evidence of your evidence.

However, this was easily found...

 
I feel like this debate has reached something of a stalemate.
 
I'm Irish and I'm not a fan of ethnic cleansing, discrimination and the systematic murder of innocent women and children either. That doesn't make me anti semitic. That clip is a bit of a farce really.

How so ? I'm mainly interested in this notion that the likes of Sudan, North Korea, and Iran are ok, but Israel isn't ?
 
How so ? I'm mainly interested in this notion that the likes of Sudan, North Korea, and Iran are ok, but Israel isn't ?

They seemed like they didn't really give two fcuks about it or what he was saying really, and those are probably the very worst clips he could show. All it showed to me was that there is a bit of a business boycott of Israel bandwagon perhaps at worst which is hardly a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You could argue it's fair enough.

My conclusion is that someone with an agenda set out to cunningly find something that isn't there and portray it as the norm to an extreme degree to fuel his agenda.
 
They seemed like they didn't really give two fcuks about it or what he was saying really, and those are probably the very worst clips he could show. All it showed to me was that there is a bit of a business boycott of Israel bandwagon perhaps at worst which is hardly a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You could argue it's fair enough.

My conclusion is that someone with an agenda set out to cunningly find something that isn't there and portray it as the norm to an extreme degree to fuel his agenda.

I'm sure that there were others who didn't fit "his" agenda, and were therefore not included in the clip but those who were indicate that it's their agenda that is the story and not his. rest assured that he didn't have to work extremely hard to find this lot.


http://www.irishcentral.com/news/an...-new-survey-findings-122794539-237390421.html


There's a bit of singling out Israel for academic, commercial and other forms of boycott, and that bandwagon is well deserved of making a public debate rather than be swept under the carpet.

On a side note, how many of those clips that make people jump on the bandwagon are staged or taken to serve an agenda? At least here the agenda is not presented as news by a mainstream media outlet.
 
Last edited:
They seemed like they didn't really give two fcuks about it or what he was saying really, and those are probably the very worst clips he could show. All it showed to me was that there is a bit of a business boycott of Israel bandwagon perhaps at worst which is hardly a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You could argue it's fair enough.

My conclusion is that someone with an agenda set out to cunningly find something that isn't there and portray it as the norm to an extreme degree to fuel his agenda.

They certainly seemed to care when he raised the boycott of Israel, so the question that probably needs answering is whether they are boycotting Israel while turning the blind eye from the likes of Sudan, North Korea, and Iran, who actually do have horrible human rights records.
 
They certainly seemed to care when he raised the boycott of Israel, so the question that probably needs answering is whether they are boycotting Israel while turning the blind eye from the likes of Sudan, North Korea, and Iran, who actually do have horrible human rights records.

Are you saying Israel doesn't have a horrible humans rights record?
 
Are you saying Israel doesn't have a horrible humans rights record?

I'll let the likes of Holyland speak to that. My point is the guy in the video rattled off a series of authoritarian dictatorships who the shop owners apparently had no problem whatsoever doing business with.
 
I'll let the likes of Holyland speak to that. My point is the guy in the video rattled off a series of authoritarian dictatorships who the shop owners apparently had no problem whatsoever doing business with.

You've got to start somewhere, and Israel as good a place as any