Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Wolverine said:
But I happen to think that I'll be paying tax soon when I graduate next year. I think that the status quo in Palestine is unacceptable, a big chunk of the blame lies with Hamas of course. But I feel that my government directly supporting a country that deals with things that I think, based on figures, commentary pieces (both pro-palestinian and not) and reports from human rights organisations that I think is unacceptable. And I find many things written about this conflict in terms of talking points verging on the sociopathic.

What we need isn't necessarily more/less discussion, it's better discussion. So that we can get rid of the George Galloway types and move away from the anti-semitic conspiracy theorism that unfortunately is a sizeable chunk of the pro-Palestinian side which is what I object to, because there kookiness enables there is no meaningful manoeuvring on this conflict way better than any hasbara type could ever manage.
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Excuse me, but I find that bolded bit nothing more than lip service, and the rest of the argument somewhat disingenuous. How bothered are you about your tax money financing convicted Palestinian murderers? Nothing to do with Hamas, but with the "moderate" Mahmoud Abbas and his Palestinian Authority. How many of the British tax payers even know about this? How many of them know that European tax-payer money is channeled to the BDS movement that aims to destroy Israel and does not accept a Jewish state in any recognizable borders?

The best part is that you preach for better discussion, yet refer to "hasbara" as an evil. Hasbara in Hebrew is the ability to describe your position and opinions but it looks that your idea of a better discussion includes only people who share your POV.
 
Israels actions in the Westbank and Gaza strip are reported under the latter, not the former. Hows is that for flawed methodology?
 
holyland red said:
image.jpg


Beware of the Jewish influence...
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Ireland like every other country has a small minority of bigots.

Still it has nothing on Israel where gangs patrol the streets attacking Arabs who date Jews.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/...ng-arab-men-not-to-date-jewish-women-1.461266

Or dinosaurs protesting at a mixed marriage.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Po...ts-plan-to-protest-Arab-Jewish-wedding-371338
 
holyland red said:
Excuse me, but I find that bolded bit nothing more than lip service, and the rest of the argument somewhat disingenuous. How bothered are you about your tax money financing convicted Palestinian murderers? Nothing to do with Hamas, but with the "moderate" Mahmoud Abbas and his Palestinian Authority. How many of the British tax payers even know about this? How many of them know that European tax-payer money is channeled to the BDS movement that aims to destroy Israel and does not accept a Jewish state in any recognizable borders?

The best part is that you preach for better discussion, yet refer to "hasbara" as an evil. Hasbara in Hebrew is the ability to describe your position and opinions but it looks that your idea of a better discussion includes only people who share your POV.
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I don't support the BDS movement, and do my fair share to challenge many positions in discussions with other Muslim friends as to why I don't when this topic comes around. And as to why we have to look beyond the usual talking points on our side of the isle too, call it disingenuous lip service if you must.

There is incidentally quite a significant amount of disagreement with the Israel issue among progressive Muslim activist types in America/UK, highlighted by the divisions an interfaith initiative/visit to Israel created and the discussions it prompted
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/fissures-american-community

I am extremely bothered by Hamas, extremely bothered by the fact that the actions of the corrupt Palestinian authority in the west bank. And the fact that they use human shields, commit torture and commit extrajudicial killings based on recent Amnesty International reports. It is true absolutely what you say that discourse regarding many issues on the pro-palestinian side are lazy, and occasionally anti-semitic.

And I referred to hasbara more as a casual descriptor and not as a pejorative although given that it is indeed how it taken to be by a lot of people and that it followed a sentence in which I mentioned George Galloway, I can see why that's how it came across. And I apologise for that.

I regularly have discussions with people who don't share my POV and have changed my POV on the basis of hearing what I considered to be reasonable and factual arguments, and less of the identity politics type of polemics. I think our discussions need to be better, in the sense that less dependant on empty sloganeering, but also not disregarding the humanitarian side of this conflict which is currently impacting the palestinians more. And the intractability of this conflict is contributed to not just by Hamas but also the actions that Israel and western governments take. I realise we might disagree on this.

My issue with this is I'm being told Im more concerned about this from a hippie fashionable point of view. As opposed to genuine concern.
 
Wolverine said:
the anti-semitic conspiracy theorism that unfortunately is a sizeable chunk of the pro-Palestinian side
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:lol: Have you been reading about Ashgar Bukhari this weekend?

asghar-bukhari-facebook-rant.jpg
 
Wolverine said:
I think our discussions need to be better, in the sense that less dependant on empty sloganeering, but also not disregarding the humanitarian side of this conflict which is currently impacting the palestinians more. And the intractability of this conflict is contributed to not just by Hamas but also the actions that Israel and western governments take. I realise we might disagree on this.
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The intractability you talk of is down to the eternal victimhood mindset of the Palestinians. This is the biggest obstacle to peace bar none. It's so addictive, so profitable, then why else would they start wars they know they can't possibly win except in the sympathy stakes?
 
holyland red said:
image.jpg


Beware of the Jewish influence...
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Sorry I'm not sure what your point is. Ireland is population of around 4.5 million people and your evidence for anti Semitism is 2/3 pieces of A4 paper(Also I have already said I wasn't ruling out the idea that anti Semitism is growing in Ireland,it's on the rise sadly in Europe and Ireland is in Europe).

There's also insane pro life message's and calling for the killing of bankers on the picture you've posted, this is clearly a extreme opinion of a few individuals or let's not rule that this could be the work of all one person on Microsoft word.

So far the proof of anti Semitism in Ireland(Something I haven't ruled out) for some people on this forum is a cheap Brass Eye knock off(Being generous here) and 3 pieces of A4 paper.
 
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Sweet Square said:
Sorry I'm not what your point is. Ireland is population of around 4.5 million people and your evidence for anti Semitism is 2/3 pieces of A4 paper(Also I have already said I wasn't ruling out the idea that anti Semitism is growing in Ireland,it's on the rise sadly in Europe and Ireland is in Europe).

There's also insane pro life message's and calling for the killing of bankers on the picture you've posted, this is clearly a extreme opinion of a few individuals or let's not rule that this could be the work of all one person on Microsoft word.

So far the proof of anti Semitism in Ireland(Something I haven't ruled out) for some people on this forum is a cheap Brass Eye knock off(Being generous here) and 3 pieces of A4 paper.
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There wasn't any need here for evidence of antisemitism in Ireland. There are surveys that indicate that this is video or Limerick "A4" or Shatter's hate mail are not isolated incidents. It's part of an overall existing issue, hence the video Raoul posted cannot be brushed aside as some loon's "agenda".
 
holyland red said:
There wasn't any need here for evidence of anti-Semitism in Ireland. There are surveys that indicate that this is video or Limerick "A4" or Shatter's hate mail are not isolated incidents. It's part of an overall existing issue, hence the video Raoul posted cannot be brushed aside as some loon's "agenda".
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The interviewer Raoul video shows is clearly not a loon but he is bias. But even then that's really not my point.

Again I'm not saying there's isn't problem with anti Semitism in Ireland(This must my third time saying this).This for example is a worry http://www.irishcentral.com/news/One-in-five-Irish-express-anti-Semitic-attitudes.html (Ireland like the UK is on lower scale compared to the rest of Europe). But that doesn't prove that Ireland as a whole is anti Semitic or has a specific problem with Jews(Or a least no more problem than any other minority).

I know this is a bit of a cheap dig but holyland red have you being to Ireland and experience Anti-Semitism. I said this because I spent a good a decade in Ireland and although it's been a while a couple of years since I've being back. I was never heard anti Semitic views (Anti Israel views, like the stickers in the shops in Raoul video)I heard alot of Racism mind you(Although no more than I've heard living in the UK).
 
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Fearless said:
The intractability you talk of is down to the eternal victimhood mindset of the Palestinians. This is the biggest obstacle to peace bar none. It's so addictive, so profitable, then why else would they start wars they know they can't possibly win except in the sympathy stakes?
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Bigoted fantasies from a bigot.
 
When it comes to Jews in general, although bigotry certainly exists, Ireland should be way down the list of European countries those concerned about anti-semitism should be worried about. When it comes to hating, we have other more relevant and ready targets at hand - Jews just aren't that important to our nutjobs.

When it comes to Israel specifically, I would say that in Ireland we have a tiny fringe of active defenders of Israel, a slightly less tiny fringe of ‘pro-Palestinian’ activists who appear to be more concerned with vilifying Israel than with the welfare of Palestinian Arabs, and a vast, mostly uninformed centre ground with no particular animus against Israel but a vague sympathy for Palestinians as the perceived underdog in the conflict. Of these three groups, the 'pro-Palestinian' is easily the most active and loudest, and hence receives a level of attention out of proportion with its actual numbers.

When it comes to Israeli perceptions of the Irish, all I can say is that in two years in Israel I heard so much ignorance - some Israelis seem to believe that the question of Jews and Israel is a major issue in Irish society and politics, that we previously had a Nazi-allied government, that Ireland is the most anti-semitic country in Europe, etc. On the other hand, most seem to harbour the same kind of stereotypes the rest of the world does (i.e. the happy foolish drunken charmers):

 
holyland red said:
Patrolling the streets....Any idea what would happen to an Arab woman dating a Jew?
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A strong chance that they might end up like this poor teenager.

The flyer ties in the threats with the nearly fatal group beating of an Arab teenager in downtown Jerusalem earlier this month. Dozens of Jewish teens are thought to have been involved in beating the victim, who had to be resuscitated by an emergency medical crew, as well as three others who escaped the August 17 assault with slight injuries.

Police have asked the Justice Ministry for guidelines to determine whether they should investigate allegations that Lehava is inciting Jerusalemites to racism by distributing the flyers in the capital, in both Hebrew and Arabic.
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Fearless said:
The intractability you talk of is down to the eternal victimhood mindset of the Palestinians. This is the biggest obstacle to peace bar none. It's so addictive, so profitable, then why else would they start wars they know they can't possibly win except in the sympathy stakes?
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The people living under occupation are the victim, it's not a figment of their imagination
 
Sweet Square said:
The interviewer Raoul video shows is clearly not a loon but he is bias. But even then that's really not my point.

Again I'm not saying there's isn't problem with anti Semitism in Ireland(This must my third time saying this).This for example is a worry http://www.irishcentral.com/news/One-in-five-Irish-express-anti-Semitic-attitudes.html (Ireland like the UK is on lower scale compared to the rest of Europe). But that doesn't prove that Ireland as a whole is anti Semitic or has a specific problem with Jews(Or a least no more problem than any other minority).

I know this is a bit of a cheap dig but holyland red have you being to Ireland and experience Anti-Semitism. I said this because I spent a good a decade in Ireland and although it's been a while a couple of years since I've being back. I was never heard anti Semitic views (Anti Israel views, like the stickers in the shops in Raoul video)I heard alot of Racism mind you(Although no more than I've heard living in the UK).
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I have never suggested That Ireland "as a whole" was antisemitic, did I? Does good old school antisemitism play some role in hostility towards Israel? I would think so, although it would be hard to prove. The survey I quoted earlier provides supporting evidence. Obviously there are other contributors such as the poor analogy to the NI and rivalry with the UK and the perception that the Arabs are a bunch of innocent underdog victims.

I have never been to Ireland, and all the Irish people I've met here were very friendly (especially that Dublin bird I met on the kibbutz, but that is getting a bit off topic).
 
Raoul said:
Probably because it doesn't 100% jive with your victimhood narrative. A good read nonetheless for the non-brainwashed.
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How can it be a narrative when they are being blown apart by F16's? Thats the bloody truth.

The Freedom house report is an embarrassment for you, the methodology so terrible it flawed from the off
 
Mozza said:
How can it be a narrative when they are being blown apart by F16's? Thats the bloody truth.

The Freedom house report is an embarrassment for you, the methodology so terrible it flawed from the off
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Parts of it actually corroborate some of what you are getting at. Embarrassing indeed. :wenger:
 
2cents said:
When it comes to Jews in general, although bigotry certainly exists, Ireland should be way down the list of European countries those concerned about anti-semitism should be worried about. When it comes to hating, we have other more relevant and ready targets at hand - Jews just aren't that important to our nutjobs.

When it comes to Israel specifically, I would say that in Ireland we have a tiny fringe of active defenders of Israel, a slightly less tiny fringe of ‘pro-Palestinian’ activists who appear to be more concerned with vilifying Israel than with the welfare of Palestinian Arabs, and a vast, mostly uninformed centre ground with no particular animus against Israel but a vague sympathy for Palestinians as the perceived underdog in the conflict. Of these three groups, the 'pro-Palestinian' is easily the most active and loudest, and hence receives a level of attention out of proportion with its actual numbers.

When it comes to Israeli perceptions of the Irish, all I can say is that in two years in Israel I heard so much ignorance - some Israelis seem to believe that the question of Jews and Israel is a major issue in Irish society and politics, that we previously had a Nazi-allied government, that Ireland is the most anti-semitic country in Europe, etc. On the other hand, most seem to harbour the same kind of stereotypes the rest of the world does (i.e. the happy foolish drunken charmers):

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:lol: At those silly chicks. YouTube...
 
holyland red said:
I have never suggested That Ireland "as a whole" was antisemitic, did I? Does good old school antisemitism play some role in hostility towards Israel? I would think so, although it would be hard to prove. The survey I quoted earlier provides supporting evidence. Obviously there are other contributors such as the poor analogy to the NI and rivalry with the UK and the perception that the Arabs are a bunch of innocent underdog victims.

I have never been to Ireland, and all the Irish people I've met here were very friendly (especially that Dublin bird I met on the kibbutz, but that is getting a bit off topic).
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No you didn't to be fair, you just posted a picture with all sort of crazy shite on it and said

''Beware of the Jewish influence''.

You didn't give me much to work off(Also could you post these surveys again, if that's all right I can't seem to find them)
 
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Sweet Square said:
No you didn't to be fair, you just posted a picture with all sort of crazy shite on it and said

''Beware of the Jewish influence''.

You didn't give me much to work off(Also could you post these surveys again, if that's all right I can't seem to find them)
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Raoul's video was dimissed as some fabricated project to portray the Irish as antisemites, by editing isolated cases of clear double standards. The picture I provided and a couple of other posts pointed at other incidents that made the headlines and suggest a wider phenomenon.
 
Sweet Square said:
Cheers.

Yeah it's awful reading that(It would interesting to know how much is Anti Israeli and how much is Anti Semitic.).
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Yeah it's pretty grim. There's a few things I'd be interested to find out. Firstly it'd be handy to find out what proportion of the respondents were against ANY naturalization, regardless of ethnicity, and secondly I wonder how other ethnic or national groups stack up. Without knowing those stats you can't really tell if people are specifically anti-semitic (as I assume was holyland red's suggestion) or whether they're just all-round racist.

On the plus side, things may have improved - the book contains statistics of surveys that have been undertaken since 1981. I assume the article is citing the latest round of surveys including with were taken in 2007/8.
 
holyland red said:
Raoul's video was dimissed as some fabricated project to portray the Irish as antisemites, by editing isolated cases of clear double standards. The picture I provided and a couple of other posts pointed at other incidents that made the headlines and suggest a wider phenomenon.
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My point about the video was that if you sound confident enough people will nod their heads and agree with any old shite. The video says more about how people don't listen correctly/or simply don't care when getting a business talk from a yank in Dublin(Being guilty of that myself a few times, get a sort of weird misty glaze covering the eyes)
Joking over course
It doesn't say anything about Anti Semitism in Ireland(Also no one has answered this but were the people interviewed the shop workers or the shop owners ?).

As for the picture you posted, it was insane dribble(one of the 6 pieces of paper had written on it''Abortion now will it be the sick and elderly'' I can't take this seriously).

I've said before this could have all being the work of a one man, a tin hat and Microsoft word but even if it's not and each piece paper represents a person views that's 6 people out 4.5 million that's hardly a wider 'phenomenon', christ that's just about enough for a boy band.

You had a interesting a worth while point with the survey you posted and I won't lie it surprised me. Stick to actual info.

jeff_goldblum said:
Yeah it's pretty grim. There's a few things I'd be interested to find out. Firstly it'd be handy to find out what proportion of the respondents were against ANY naturalization, regardless of ethnicity, and secondly I wonder how other ethnic or national groups stack up. Without knowing those stats you can't really tell if people are specifically anti-semitic (as I assume was holyland red's suggestion) or whether they're just all-round racist.

On the plus side, things may have improved - the book contains statistics of surveys that have been undertaken since 1981. I assume the article is citing the latest round of surveys including with were taken in 2007/8.
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Yep would be interesting to know. It wouldn't surprise me if the 22% that would stop Israeli's becoming naturalized citizens would as stop pretty much anyone from becoming a citizen.
 
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